Spent $70 on this game... can't seem to play more than a bit of it

[jinzen]

I am really hoping that the new Torment game doesn't turn out like this.

 

Basically, I started with 1.0, but couldn't bother to play a game without party AI. I mean, Baldurs Gate 1 had party AI like 15 years ago when it was released. 

 

Then, I tried getting into it on 2.0, but I just really dislike every single class and their mechanics. They don't seem FUN. How did Obsidian manage to take the fun out of these classes through the way they work?

 

Just to look at three of the cooler ones:

 

Monk

Cipher (psionicist)

Wizard

 

The monk relies on getting damaged to do anything. Worst gameplay design decision ever? Do you guys know what a martial artist IS?

 

The Cipher is really cool on paper but relies on shooting a gun to generate... something to use his mind powers? Ugh, really? 

 

The Wizard seems very cookie cutter and must basically rely on the 2x stacks of kindling to rest before each encounter. At least in BG2 you could rest almost anywhere.

 

The other classes are of no real interest to me, some seem VERY dull like the Chanter and Paladin, and even more dull than the "Fighter". 

 

Anyway, I figured I would rant here because I literally can't seem to start a new game without putting it away again. Also, apparently the storyline is lackluster so is it even worth playing through to the WM Part 2?

[sp3cw4r]

Strokes and different folks and all that right?!

 

IMO if Tides of Numenera turned out anywhere near the quality of Pillars I'd be elated. And they'll get there I think, the beta is looking pretty good, with the obvious rough edges.

[Sedrefilos]

If you liked the classes and mechanics of Baldurs' more than Pillars'... well there's not much I can say

 

As for Tides, I've watched some beta playthroughs and the game seems quite interesting; ALTHOUGH... graphics-wise I expected it to be better but this is a minor complaint. What bothered me more was that a very large part of the game is like a digital book. I mean come on! I don't have problem reading lots of lines of interactive dialogues but reading pages over pages over pages of descriptions is tiresome! If I want to read a book, I'll take a book, lay on the couch or bed and read it wile relaxing not sitting on a chair in front of a screen!

 

Those flashbacks of your past life? Wouldn't they be better presented through gameplay rather than walls of text? Youldn't it be more interesting and immersive? And gamey? I relly don't get it...

[the_dog_days]

Strokes and different folks and all that right?!

 

IMO if Tides of Numenera turned out anywhere near the quality of Pillars I'd be elated. And they'll get there I think, the beta is looking pretty good, with the obvious rough edges.

I backed Numenera years ago. Even though I already bought my copy, I'm perfectly fine if I don't like TTN because was Pillars was the game I really wanted.

[Infinitron]

If OP thinks weird classes make a game unfun, he definitely won't like Torment.

 

Which is good in my book because his opinions are dumb

Edited February 18, 2016 by Infinitron

[sp3cw4r]

I backed Numenera years ago. Even though I already bought my copy, I'm perfectly fine if I don't like TTN because was Pillars was the game I really wanted.

 

Same here, I backed both projects on day 1.

 

I knew what I was backing though, both games are very different, and therefore expectations for each are very different. For instance with Pillars, good tactical combat was an important ingredient for me, and I think it's achieved that. With TTON, I don't think I care if there's combat at all as I'm looking to avoid most of it with a clever smooth talker and just enjoy the story.

 

Basically I've been expecting to play through Pillars and enjoy it as I did BGII, and TTON as I played through PST. That looks to be exactly what I'm getting and thrilled about it. Pillars has delivered exactly what I wanted, now we'll see about TTON, but I'd say it's well on it's way with what I've played through in the beta.      

[why]

I don't have the money to back games, being one of the po' folk, but if I did, I would accept that pledging for a game is like settling down at the blackjack tables in New Vegas. You throw in your money and hope it leads to an entertaining evening. (and free drinks, if you're lucky)

 

As far as complaints about the game, I tried it when it first came out and there were certain things that confused, confounded, or even caused me choler, but none that created a conniption. Not that I begrudge anyone a good rant. Like sp3cw4r says, different strokes for different folks.

 

I'm starting my third run this morning and I think this game may just have some more runs after that. I'm also looking forward to Tides. I've seen vids of the beta and whatnot, but I'm avoiding spoilers so I can enjoy the finished product.

[rheingold]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, if you don't like it, there is not much to say. I personally think the class mechanics are superb. Yes there are problems, but you have to give Obs some serious credit. They could have gone with the standard variations of d&d instead they tried something different. Some of the mechanics like cipher/chanters/monks and barbarians are really well thought out and as original as you get.

As for monks taking damage, well the class is not a true martial artist as such. It's heavily influenced by the medieval flagellant religious sects, though obviously less religion more spiritualism. Again gotta say well done obs for trying something different. For the record, I don't necessarily like all the classes and mechanics but the one thing you can't say is that Obs haven't put in effort and largely succeeded in making each class distinctive and fun to play.

[Osvir]

Anyway, I figured I would rant here because I literally can't seem to start a new game without putting it away again. Also, apparently the storyline is lackluster so is it even worth playing through to the WM Part 2?

That's your problem. Literally. Mind you, I don't mean to sound rude. Just frank/honest.

 

I believe you are making an active (potentially a passive or sub-conscious) choice.

 

There's a TL;DR ("Too Long; Didn't Read" a.k.a. "In Short" or "Summary of Post") at the bottom.

 

I understand your problem tho. I've been going through the same journey for a lot of games throughout the ages. Even NEO Scavenger. Darkest Dungeon. TES. Yes, even Pillars of Eternity. But it hasn't been because "Oh this game sucks so much", it has mostly been because of my own motivation is -100% to play any game and I'm just trying to pass time because I'm in a bored state of mind. Either I'm trying to play something when I should be doing something else, or just unconveniently bad timing. Or I can overcome this state with some willpower and forget I was bored in the first place (usually takes some mental work/mantra).

 

Games like Pillars of Eternity aren't really games to pass time with, they're experiences~ for the lack of a better word.

 

It took me near 10 years to play and finish Baldur's Gate. I pirated it first because it was #1 on RPG lists. Then I bought a hard copy. I modded it (30 gb worth of mods), played with a friend and then I started to see the underlying charm and history of it. Even the culture of D&D dawned on me, and I plowed through it like no tomorrow and I was amazed by it. Even bought the Enhanced Editions as well (sentimental value/collection, even if it is nothing but digital bytes).

 

Like I've said in similar threads like this one. Take your time. Figure out a cool concept for a character, perhaps read a book or some fanfic to get inspired. Invest and engage some time into Your Character. Talk to someone close to you about this cool character, get feedback, modify it etc. etc.

 

I have a friend who dump a lot of time into games creating characters, but 30-60 minutes in he drops the game and starts all over because he wasn't satisfied with the direction or choices he made (he usually likes the game a lot but he messes up the character so he starts all over and over... I do too in a lot of RPG's. It can take a couple of trial characters before I get "The One").

 

When you've done the character, take a moment and decide "I'm going to read every word and every line in the game, and listen to what they say" without skipping ahead. Personally, this is usually the main reason why I lose a lot of interest in a lot of games (Skipping dialogue), because a game such as Pillars of Eternity (RPG's in general really) can get kind of dull if you're not...:

A) ... using your brain/thinking

B) ... paying attention/reading*

 

Because simply brawling over and over and fighting trash mob after thrash mob with the seldom harder encounter (boss or similar) makes most games mundane and repetitive. It can easily become "work", and this is something that video games are designed to escape from, are they not?

 

I do repetetive tasks every single day at work, walking back and forth, doing the same thing over and over for months/weeks and you have to stay positive (yes, I'm reflecting and comparing with work). If I were to get home and do the same thing over and over again, I'd get depressed, not very motivated to leisurely escape reality for a couple of hours, and I wouldn't enjoy my free time very much.

 

TL;DR:

1) Figure out a cool character concept. What does your character look like (in your mind's eye)? Or perhaps you can google a cool portrait you like and implement it into the game? What's his/her name? Where do he/she come from? What did he/she do before? Etc. etc. Mind you that your character is going to be Level 1 so don't go for "DESTROYER OF GODS!!!" (unless, of course, you cheat with console commands and give your character Max Level right away).

 

2) Decide that you're going to read every word and line in the game, before you even start playing the game, decide that you're going to pay attention. Listen to the voice acting. Pay attention to details. Focus. Stay alert. Stay motivated. This is an active choice, not something that just "happens". Trust me, it becomes so much easier to keep track and enjoy what's going on. And when or if you get bored, press on, you'll feel rewarded for it later (although, that is a subjective matter).

 

What sort of games do you enjoy and play a lot? What's your favorite story? Did you hear/read that favorite story by skipping all the pages, or did you read it and pay attention and gave yourself in to it a little bit?

 

There you go.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

Anyway, I figured I would rant here because I literally can't seem to start a new game without putting it away again. Also, apparently the storyline is lackluster so is it even worth playing through to the WM Part 2?

 

Nope, totally not worth it. Best cut your losses and play something else.

[PrimeJunta]

If you liked the classes and mechanics of Baldurs' more than Pillars'... well there's not much I can say

 

As for Tides, I've watched some beta playthroughs and the game seems quite interesting; ALTHOUGH... graphics-wise I expected it to be better but this is a minor complaint. What bothered me more was that a very large part of the game is like a digital book. I mean come on! I don't have problem reading lots of lines of interactive dialogues but reading pages over pages over pages of descriptions is tiresome! If I want to read a book, I'll take a book, lay on the couch or bed and read it wile relaxing not sitting on a chair in front of a screen!

 

Those flashbacks of your past life? Wouldn't they be better presented through gameplay rather than walls of text? Youldn't it be more interesting and immersive? And gamey? I relly don't get it...

 

I've been playing the T:ToN beta.

 

Lack of interactivity is not one of its problems. There is a lot of text, but there's a crazy number of ways situations can be resolved. It's extremely non-linear and reactive.

 

As to the "flashbacks" (they're called 'meres' by the way), they also work really well. By and large they're mini-stories which would've required a lot of resources to develop as full gameplay. As CYOA interludes they expand the depth and breadth of the game in ways that just couldn't have been done without, like, five or ten times the budget. They're well thought-out and overall well written, and they all reveal something significant about who or what you—or someone else—are.

 

Planescape: Torment rewarded reading. T:ToN perhaps even more so. If you don't like to read, it most definitely isn't the game for you. However, it is not an interactive novel: the way the text is structured could not have been presented as a book, film, or any other medium. It is a game, right down to the parts where you read something, reflect on it, and choose what to do. In a way those parts are a throwback to the glory days of Infocom text adventures, although much easier.

 

That's also why it is going to have a pretty selective appeal, and I'm sure a lot of players will simply give up on it, simply because interactive fiction is almost dead, and therefore unfamiliar and off-putting to them.

[Sedrefilos]

 

If you liked the classes and mechanics of Baldurs' more than Pillars'... well there's not much I can say

 

As for Tides, I've watched some beta playthroughs and the game seems quite interesting; ALTHOUGH... graphics-wise I expected it to be better but this is a minor complaint. What bothered me more was that a very large part of the game is like a digital book. I mean come on! I don't have problem reading lots of lines of interactive dialogues but reading pages over pages over pages of descriptions is tiresome! If I want to read a book, I'll take a book, lay on the couch or bed and read it wile relaxing not sitting on a chair in front of a screen!

 

Those flashbacks of your past life? Wouldn't they be better presented through gameplay rather than walls of text? Youldn't it be more interesting and immersive? And gamey? I relly don't get it...

 

I've been playing the T:ToN beta.

 

Lack of interactivity is not one of its problems. There is a lot of text, but there's a crazy number of ways situations can be resolved. It's extremely non-linear and reactive.

 

As to the "flashbacks" (they're called 'meres' by the way), they also work really well. By and large they're mini-stories which would've required a lot of resources to develop as full gameplay. As CYOA interludes they expand the depth and breadth of the game in ways that just couldn't have been done without, like, five or ten times the budget. They're well thought-out and overall well written, and they all reveal something significant about who or what you—or someone else—are.

 

Planescape: Torment rewarded reading. T:ToN perhaps even more so. If you don't like to read, it most definitely isn't the game for you. However, it is not an interactive novel: the way the text is structured could not have been presented as a book, film, or any other medium. It is a game, right down to the parts where you read something, reflect on it, and choose what to do. In a way those parts are a throwback to the glory days of Infocom text adventures, although much easier.

 

That's also why it is going to have a pretty selective appeal, and I'm sure a lot of players will simply give up on it, simply because interactive fiction is almost dead, and therefore unfamiliar and off-putting to them.

 

Wall texts or not, I'm going to play Tides anyway; I just know from now I'll get tired of reading and maybe skip ahead - my loss, they're loss too - whatever.

RPGs ARE the games for me, btw, no matter what (unless they are Fallout 4 - ok, I couldn't stand it more than a few hours!) especially those old-schooly ones. It's just that I prefere things presented to me via gameplay rather than unending reading when it comes to games. Mostly because reading in front of a screen tires me a lot.

 

Now, blockbuster fps's, those are definately NOT for me

[Luckmann]

 

If you liked the classes and mechanics of Baldurs' more than Pillars'... well there's not much I can say

 

As for Tides, I've watched some beta playthroughs and the game seems quite interesting; ALTHOUGH... graphics-wise I expected it to be better but this is a minor complaint. What bothered me more was that a very large part of the game is like a digital book. I mean come on! I don't have problem reading lots of lines of interactive dialogues but reading pages over pages over pages of descriptions is tiresome! If I want to read a book, I'll take a book, lay on the couch or bed and read it wile relaxing not sitting on a chair in front of a screen!

 

Those flashbacks of your past life? Wouldn't they be better presented through gameplay rather than walls of text? Youldn't it be more interesting and immersive? And gamey? I relly don't get it...

 

I've been playing the T:ToN beta.

 

Lack of interactivity is not one of its problems. There is a lot of text, but there's a crazy number of ways situations can be resolved. It's extremely non-linear and reactive.

 

As to the "flashbacks" (they're called 'meres' by the way), they also work really well. By and large they're mini-stories which would've required a lot of resources to develop as full gameplay. As CYOA interludes they expand the depth and breadth of the game in ways that just couldn't have been done without, like, five or ten times the budget. They're well thought-out and overall well written, and they all reveal something significant about who or what you—or someone else—are.

 

Planescape: Torment rewarded reading. T:ToN perhaps even more so. If you don't like to read, it most definitely isn't the game for you. However, it is not an interactive novel: the way the text is structured could not have been presented as a book, film, or any other medium. It is a game, right down to the parts where you read something, reflect on it, and choose what to do. In a way those parts are a throwback to the glory days of Infocom text adventures, although much easier.

 

That's also why it is going to have a pretty selective appeal, and I'm sure a lot of players will simply give up on it, simply because interactive fiction is almost dead, and therefore unfamiliar and off-putting to them.

 

 

Sounds promising. A lack of reactivity was always one of my chief complaints with the narrative in PoE.

[Osvir]

I forgot one important point to make in my previous post:

3) DON'T READ OR ENGAGE IN FORUM ACTIVITY WHILE PLAYING! (E.g. Real life stuff) That has crushed several of my re-runs of Pillars of Eternity actually (between 1.0 and 2.0). My very first run I ignored the forums, stayed away from it completely. But then I started new games with new characters and I played a little bit. Got pretty far too with a solo character. Then I jumped into the forums, and my attention became diverted and split up.

This is subjective though, I couldn't handle juggling forum activity (talking/reading and paying attention here, and at the same time paying attention to the in-game world). If I engage in a discussion here and at the same time play in Defiance Bay, and I recall someone on the forums talking about Defiance Bay, or I had talked about Defiance Bay, I can easily get thrown "out of" the attention and the game starts to look more and more objective and less immersive.

Metaphorically:
Which soccer star goes onto the playing field thinking about doing their laundry or dishes? No one. All they're thinking about is doing the right passes, and get the ball into the net to score points.

That's kind of how I am when I play games. Parallelly, if I'm fighting a story encounter or reading/listening to a questline in-game, laundry or dishes shouldn't be on my mind.

So I guess this point #3 is also "Do your chores BEFORE you play"
 

@Torment Discussion: Just adding some cents. I had a good first impression. I played just for about 1 hour before the Beta completely bugged out on me and freezed, but it's interesting and such. I should get on to it, I think it's been updated but... I think I'll wait a while longer, personally. Definately promising the Turn-Based sections felt a wee bit, how to say... I wasn't quite used to it. Felt a lil bit Temple of Elemental Evil~ish (prettier but rougher).

Edited February 18, 2016 by Osvir

[HippoJ]

OP:

 

Much of the complaining feels like you you're looking for reasons to dislike the game (i.e. citing a cipher having to use a gun, which is....one of like 20 options for weapons).  I also can't reconcile how you claim to not be able to even start a game yet you 'know' the plot is lackluster. 

 

Sounds like the game isn't for you, and it sucks to buy a game that doesn't work out, but I'd venture it's happened to just about everyone here. 

 

I expect TTN to be quite different in it's structure and isn't going for the same thing as Pillars.  Hope that works out better for ya.

[PrimeJunta]

Sounds promising. A lack of reactivity was always one of my chief complaints with the narrative in PoE.

 

It is promising. Not without its problems (although some of them will certainly be addressed in the beta), but when it comes to narrative reactivity I'm confident it's going to be the best we've seen in years. 

 

@Torment Discussion: Just adding some cents. I had a good first impression. I played just for about 1 hour before the Beta completely bugged out on me and freezed, but it's interesting and such. I should get on to it, I think it's been updated but... I think I'll wait a while longer, personally. Definately promising the Turn-Based sections felt a wee bit, how to say... I wasn't quite used to it. Felt a lil bit Temple of Elemental Evil~ish (prettier but rougher).

 

The new beta build is much stabler. It's barely bugged out on me at all. The first one was pretty bad, combat especially was nearly unplayable and it had fairly horrid performance issues, which have all been addressed in the patched version. Give it another whirl, I think you might like it. 

 

It does spoil a lot of the real game though.

[why]

I saw a video of the very beginning and one combat in Tides. I'm looking forward to the game with excruciating anticipation. It's worse than the Carly Simon song.

[Karkarov]

That's also why it is going to have a pretty selective appeal, and I'm sure a lot of players will simply give up on it, simply because interactive fiction is almost dead, and therefore unfamiliar and off-putting to them.

At some point there is an actual game though right?  Like you actually have combat sometimes?  Can you actually buy a sword from a guy yelling about selling swords?  Or is it just an e novel with graphics on top of it where any choice not charisma based is a fail state like the game it is based on?

[MonkeyLungs]

Torment's major hurdle right now, for me anyway, is performance. It is abysmal. PoE runs like a dream. Torment is in need of a lot of work before I'd call it even Beta status.

[why]

 

That's also why it is going to have a pretty selective appeal, and I'm sure a lot of players will simply give up on it, simply because interactive fiction is almost dead, and therefore unfamiliar and off-putting to them.

At some point there is an actual game though right?  Like you actually have combat sometimes?  Can you actually buy a sword from a guy yelling about selling swords?  Or is it just an e novel with graphics on top of it where any choice not charisma based is a fail state like the game it is based on?

 

On the other hand, if you didn't like the game on which it is based, why bother with it? Planescape: Torment is still probably my favorite game and, having not only played it several times, edited my stats to get all the nooks and crannies and then played it more times, and finally gotten the dialogue editor and hunted down stuff I missed on my previous plays (as well as getting the 'evil' dialogue since I never played that way), I can tell you for sure that you could buy weapons from folks hawking their wares. Contrary to popular silliness, there was a ton of combat in PS:T. To my mind, more than it needed, but it was all good. Yeah, Charisma, Intellect, and Wisdom were the big dialogue options, but there were calls in there for strength and dexterity if I remember it right. Such as quickly reaching out and snapping some poor bastard's neck.

 

Don't get me wrong, Karkarov, I'm not typing out an angry retort here. I'm just saying that as someone who greatly admired and enjoyed the game on which Tides is based, I hope they stick to the good parts. Although I think the writing could have used a little tightening. It was excellent, but I do think there were times when they could have chopped off a few lines here and there.

[Karkarov]

It was excellent, but I do think there were times when they could have chopped off a few lines here and there.

Well I won't give you my "unfiltered" opinion of Planescape: Torment.  I will sum it up by saying it was not faithful to the source material it was based on (the Planescape campaign setting), many of it's design decisions seemed to be based on being "witty" and "anti trope" not on actually being good design decisions, and the overall way the game was played was skewed to force a specific stat, class, and playstyle and if you didn't follow that skew you got sub optimal game experience all the way around.

 

Also the sword comment is there for a specific reason.  There are literally no swords in Planescape: Torment.  Or there are, you just aren't allowed to buy, loot, or use them.  Why?  Because the dev's thought it would be cute apparently.  This is my classic example of stupid design decisions in Planescape:Torment that made no sense.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Karkarov

[why]

Yeah, it certainly went out of its way to be exotic, for sure. I kind of get the feeling that Mr. Avellone really much prefers anti-heroes to heroes and lust to love. I greatly enjoyed the game but, even back then, I knew it wouldn't be everyone's cup o' tea. I think, if I played it now, I would have far more criticisms of the writing, but I played it then. Even understanding the flaws now, and seeing some of them then, I can't and don't want to change the great experience I had with the game. It's like something I saw someone post here about a different game some time ago. I wish I could go back and unplay the game so I could play it again for the first time.

 

Anyhow, all of this is off-topic, which is fine by me since I think talking about Tides and PS:T is far more worthy than griping about how monks in Pillars aren't the same as the monks in BG2.

[dulcamara]

 

"Well I won't give you my "unfiltered" opinion of Planescape: Torment.  I will sum it up by saying it was not faithful to the source material it was based on (the Planescape campaign setting), many of it's design decisions seemed to be based on being "witty" and "anti trope" not on actually being good design decisions, and the overall way the game was played was skewed to force a specific stat, class, and playstyle and if you didn't follow that skew you got sub optimal game experience all the way around.

Also the sword comment is there for a specific reason.  There are literally no swords in Planescape: Torment.  Or there are, you just aren't allowed to buy, loot, or use them.  Why?  Because the dev's thought it would be cute apparently.  This is my classic example of stupid design decisions in Planescape:Torment that made no sense."

 

 

I wasn't really aware of any of this about Torment at the time - just played it my way and thoroughly enjoyed it. No idea if I got the "sub-optimal" or "optimal" experience you describe, was great anyhow.

 

The thing is, there's a fantastic array of options out there for every taste right now and certainly plenty of games where you can wield sword to your heart's content. Really, show me any game that doesn't fudge things with what weapons/inventory are available to loot - either by not making enemy gear lootable, or by mysteriously upgrading as you progress so that by the end of ToB every minor opponent is carrying +5 weapons. A fully "realistic" design approach to this is the exception by far.

Edited February 18, 2016 by dulcamara

[Ohioastro]

Torment made a real impression on me; it was genuinely different from any other game released at the time.  It certainly had its problems (the combat system is awful, for example); but so what?  There are games that really open up the genre and it's one of a small number of those.

 

As for the OP:  obvious troll is trolling.  I'm surprised that they didn't add something about all of the people in the forum smelling funny.

[PrimeJunta]

At some point there is an actual game though right?  Like you actually have combat sometimes?  Can you actually buy a sword from a guy yelling about selling swords?  Or is it just an e novel with graphics on top of it where any choice not charisma based is a fail state like the game it is based on?

 

Merchants aren't implemented in the beta, but they will be. There is combat, a fair bit of it actually if you go picking fights. (And yes there are swords.) Noncombat skills are crazy powerful though, I had more fun with a Slick Jack who Wields a Silver Tongue than a Strong Glaive who <does something or other>. It's not all Persuasion though, Quick Fingers, various Lore skills, Smashing, Intimidation etc. also get a workout.

 

What's more, apparent fail states are often kind of interesting and sometimes lead to unexpected good things. There's one especially cool example at least in the beta which I won't spoil here. The game is really enjoyable to just play and see how it pans out, without worrying about finding the 'correct' or 'best' solution, because it's not always what you think it is.

 

Still, this is very much a story-based game. The meat is in the dialog, Meres, and quests, and how they pan out; combat etc. is more of a side dish.

Edited February 19, 2016 by PrimeJunta