SW: The Old Republic - Episode VIII (May RNG Be With You)

[Manveru123]

But only a Sith deals in absolutes

[SonicMage117]

I felt in my soul that I needed to post this:

 

Little do many know that Yoda's teaching of lifting the X-Wing is straight from the Christian Bible.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Unlike real world medical practice, knowledge of the force in SW isn't the result of a million peer-reviewed studies, but a whole lot of nebulous anecdote-inspired mumbo-jumbo wrapped in mysticism. So "do this - cause harm" is more religious dogmatism than proven, well understood mechanical cause and effect. It's like how people still died of things like typhoid fever in China despite thousands of years of experience with "traditional" methods, until antibiotics came along.

 

ye, but again SW universe not real world. These ineffable forces *actually exist*. they are concrete, not nebulous.

 

even if the ip describes the understanding of the force in mystical, rather than scientific language, that understanding is rational according to the universe in which it takes place.

 

ur comparison with traditional medicine doesnt hold.

 

in ur example, the Chinese were using mystical methods to understand a physical phenomenon.

 

in SW, the jedi are using mystical methods to understand a mystical phenomenon.

 

the former's irrational with the benefit of current knowledge. the latter ain't.

 

Before Disney nuked the EU, there were other non-Jedi LS force user traditions. And there's precedent of Sith using a systematic, science-based approach to study the Force, the results of which (the creation of life) aren't inherently dark side.

 

 It seems Disney judged all that malarkey was undermining the IP's central conflict and USP. Cant say i blame them.

  

Jedi are just one sect of force users. They don't necessarily have a monopoly on "light side safe practices" because they quite obviously lack a comprehensive knowledge of the force and their rigid philosophy doesn't exactly encourage exploration.

 

well, ye ofc, if one side of the conflict knew everything, thered be no meaningful opposition.

 

thered be no darth vader cos theyd have learnt to stop darth vader from ever happening. like, what would be the point. lets watch a space opera where nothing happens.

 

in every single story that trades in battle between good and evil, good is always imperfect bulwark against evil. the trope struggles to wok any other way.

  

And as with any centrally organized religious establishments, schisms are inevitable.

 

eh, i think making judgements on inevitability of anything within a fictional universe is a fool's errand. like, all a writer has to do is create a centrally organised religious establishment with no schisms and badda-bing! 

 

like, obv this raises argument of whether the story ur telling would benefit from its inclusion - but i can easily believe it would in some circumstances. like if the complexity of ur lore is drawing focus from the story u want to tell, u simplify ur lore.

 

I'm not even going into MCA's views on whether the force really has light and dark sides.

 

I'm sure MCA's take would be interesting and i greatly enjoyed his subversion of the IP - but KOTOR2 is MCA first and Star Wars a very distant second.

 

Just basic fallibility and the intrinsic unreliability of incomplete, unscientific principles.

 

eh what.

 

like i... *guess* u can use SW as a springboard to explore and express that theme? and no doubt someone somewhere would get their rocks off doing it. world is big after all.

 

but it would be a hard sell for me. a very hard sell.

 

Jedism/Jediism is very symbolistic of Christianity in that it deals with absolutes. For example, you are either a Jedi or a Sith just as in Christinity, the relationship states "You are hot or cold. You cannot proceed to have one foot out and the other in".

 

U could go even further back to Zoroastrianism if u want to dig into concepts of absolute good and evil. they posited the destructive spirit 'Angra Mainyu' and the creative spirit 'Ahura Mazda'. afaik theyre the origin of the god/devil or good/evil binary which has endured for centuries.

 

im no great expert in religious matters so ive only got the simplest understanding of them im afraid.

 

There are so many movies/books that were inspired by Christianity though. Star Wars, Lord Of The Rings, Chronicles Of Narnia, The Matrix and even the late Batman vs Superman.

 

ye that all pretty uncontroversial. esp regarding Tolkien and Lewis. there judeo/christian symbolism all over the matrix. cant comment on batman v superman.

[bugarup]

And I felt in my soul I needed to post this:

 

 

Totes prefer it to Bible's teachings

[213374U]

ye, but again SW universe not real world. These ineffable forces *actually exist*. they are concrete, not nebulous.

 

Even leaving aside the fact that going "it's magic!" to hand-wave away any absurdities in the narrative is plain crap writing, this isn't relevant to what I said. The mechanisms that make the human body work are concrete too, but in order to fully understand what's going on under the hood, an ad-hoc anecdote-based belief system just doesn't cut it.

 

 

even if the ip describes the understanding of the force in mystical, rather than scientific language, that understanding is rational according to the universe in which it takes place.

You cannot have it be both mystical and rational simultaneously just because the writer says it is so (which they didn't, by the way). That's absurd, in any universe where rationality and mysticism mean what they are understood to mean. You are suggesting that the force cannot be understood because it's a mystical phenomenon, but it can be understood "mystically", whatever that means. That doesn't make sense.

 

 

ur comparison with traditional medicine doesnt hold.

 

in ur example, the Chinese were using mystical methods to understand a physical phenomenon.

 

No. The Chinese have thousands of years of experience with what works and what doesn't based on trial and error—but they didn't understand why and therefore the reach of their methods was limited. The mystical doodads are just thrown on top, but the core is experience.

 

 

in SW, the jedi are using mystical methods to understand a mystical phenomenon. [...]

 

It seems Disney judged all that malarkey was undermining the IP's central conflict and USP. Cant say i blame them.

This is not part of the canon Disney canned, it's part of the new canon, from the Darth Plagueis references in the Tarkin novel as well as Ep III, AFAIK.

 

 

well, ye ofc, if one side of the conflict knew everything, thered be no meaningful opposition.

 

thered be no darth vader cos theyd have learnt to stop darth vader from ever happening. like, what would be the point. lets watch a space opera where nothing happens.

 

in every single story that trades in battle between good and evil, good is always imperfect bulwark against evil. the trope struggles to wok any other way.

Yeah, and so we reach the first of the many contradictions we'll have to deal with if we throw logic and consistency out because "magic!". You cannot simultaneously have Jedi who are all-knowing as far as what's ok and not ok wrt the force and then have them crash and burn spectacularly because their teachings fail them.

 

 

eh, i think making judgements on inevitability of anything within a fictional universe is a fool's errand. like, all a writer has to do is create a centrally organised religious establishment with no schisms and badda-bing!

Yes, but that writer also has to give a convincing explanation as to why there can be no differences of opinion whatsoever and everyone is both 100% down with the party line but also possessed of free will and the ability to think for themselves. Again "that *can't* happen in my setting because magic!" is plain bad writing. At best, it can be said that it hasn't happened yet. Only it actually has happened, several times, apparently.

 

 

 

 

Just basic fallibility and the intrinsic unreliability of incomplete, unscientific principles.

 

eh what.

 

like i... *guess* u can use SW as a springboard to explore and express that theme? and no doubt someone somewhere would get their rocks off doing it. world is big after all.

 

but it would be a hard sell for me. a very hard sell.

That some religious group's dogma is *gasp* not all-encompassing and imperfect when it comes to explaining and harnessing some mysterious and otherworldly phenomenon is a hard sell? Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I mean, did you feel cheated when Yoda got his smug green ass handed to him by Palps despite him being a 100% total complete force expert? "Do or do not, there is no try", my ass.

[Manveru123]

"Because magic" or "because science" is how every fictional world works. And it's fine, because the movies are supposed to be entertaining, not spend 30 minutes explaining how does an X-Wing fly.

 

Well in the Palps example, Yoda most certainly "did not", so hey, no contradictions here ;p

[213374U]

Plenty of fictional settings have all individuals subscribing to some belief or political outlook, with no dissidence—this is explained as "because magic" (hive minds, nerve stapling, what have you). The difference is that that sort of thing tends to be a plot device and it is established in advance as part of the "fictional" element, not as a defense against complaints that something makes no sense or needlessly stretches the suspension of disbelief, while serving no narrative purpose other than covering the writer's failure to craft a consistent setting.

 

Using "because magic" to explain action at a distance is fine, if you need that for your story. Using it to dismiss inconsistencies in the internal logic of the world you've crafted is bad writing, is all I'm saying. In this case "humans are not a hive mind and are fully capable of doctrinal disagreement" is one of the (unspoken) foundations of most fictional settings, including Star Wars.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Even leaving aside the fact that going "it's magic!" to hand-wave away any absurdities in the narrative is plain crap writing.

 

why should it be? fml, if everyone avoided what u call 'crap writing' every werewolf novel would open with a 70,000 word essay on why the transformation doesnt violate the second law of thermodynamics.

 

and dont get me started on how the 'cosmic horror' tradition might regard this little rubric of urs - or *magical realism*. fml. if u discover that genre, i hope uve got some ibuprofen handy.

 

You are suggesting that the force cannot be understood because it's a mystical phenomenon,

 

nope, i didnt suggest that. u want to insert words in my mouth, crack on bruv, but ull excuse me if i dont participate while u argue with urself.

 

once more, i suggested horses for courses, that the (imaginary, setting-unique) force could be understood via (imaginary, setting-unique) methods relevant to the force.

 

Yes, but that writer also has to give a convincing explanation as to why there can be no differences of opinion whatsoever and everyone is both 100% down with the party line but also possessed of free will and the ability to think for themselves.

no they dont. 

 

 

 

Just basic fallibility and the intrinsic unreliability of incomplete, unscientific principles.

 

eh what.

 

like i... *guess* u can use SW as a springboard to explore and express that theme? and no doubt someone somewhere would get their rocks off doing it. world is big after all.

 

but it would be a hard sell for me. a very hard sell.

 

That some religious group's dogma is *gasp* not all-encompassing and imperfect when it comes to explaining and harnessing some mysterious and otherworldly phenomenon is a hard sell? Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

 

 

once more for the folks at the back. its not the theme i have an issue with, its the salience of the carrier. if u want to interrogate certain ways of understanding the world, fill ur boots. but i see little point in burdening a series like star wars with that task.

 

I mean, did you feel cheated when Yoda got his smug green ass handed to him by Palps despite him being a 100% total complete force expert? "Do or do not, there is no try", my ass.

 

eh? why on earth would u have yoda beating palpatine tho? like if palpatines to be taken seriously as an antagonist, he has to be tasty enough to hold his own against the best the good guys have to offer. usual thing is that the master has to get splatted so a student may rise. thats... expected. why would anyone feel cheated by that?

 

sweet lord, ill have to check out for now. i stated the original point i wanted to make and id rather enjoy myself than carry on talking at cross-purposes. also i lost some stuff bcs of browser nonsense. that might have been my fault. imma bit of a tech imbecile.

 

like, my main problem with star wars is that it wants to fulfil the tropes of a particular genre while *at the same time* creating an expansive universe that undermines that genre. ur mainly arguing star wars should fulfil its 'expansive universe' brief with no regard for its original genre because of some platonic ideal of 'good writing' which i dont believe applies to every form.

 

if u think star wars should ditch the space-fantasy blockbuster angle and mature into something else, thats fair - personally i feel the franchise should have stayed within its remit and that it cant evolve without sacrificing too much of its original identity.

[Manveru123]

Plenty of fictional settings have all individuals subscribing to some belief or political outlook, with no dissidence—this is explained as "because magic" (hive minds, nerve stapling, what have you). The difference is that that sort of thing tends to be a plot device and it is established in advance as part of the "fictional" element, not as a defense against complaints that something makes no sense or needlessly stretches the suspension of disbelief, while serving no narrative purpose other than covering the writer's failure to craft a consistent setting.

 

Using "because magic" to explain action at a distance is fine, if you need that for your story. Using it to dismiss inconsistencies in the internal logic of the world you've crafted is bad writing, is all I'm saying. In this case "humans are not a hive mind and are fully capable of doctrinal disagreement" is one of the (unspoken) foundations of most fictional settings, including Star Wars.

Star Wars is written in a way that pretty much everything can be explained with The Force, because the universe never set any boundaries on what The Force can and cannot do. Quite to opposite actually, we are led to believe that it can do literally anything. So in this case, "because magic" is quite literal. The only time I really thought that it sucks was when Leia did a Jesus in space in the latest movie, that was beyond ridiculous. Other than that, it's fine to me.

[213374U]

why should it be?

Because it serves no narrative purpose. It doesn't by itself make the setting distinct, it doesn't advance a plot. It's simply there because the writer failed to come up with a compelling explanation that doesn't stretch the suspension of disbelief.

 

 

fml, if everyone avoided what u call 'crap writing' every werewolf novel would open with a 70,000 word essay on why the transformation doesnt violate the second law of thermodynamics.

Nah. Magical werewolf transformations serve a purpose if you are writing a story in which werewolves are somehow relevant to the story. If you are writing a crime thriller and then suddenly go "the baddie was immune to bullets because, uh, he's a werewolf!" with no prior explanation or foreshadowing and the only reason why that happens is that you cannot come up with anything better, then yes—it's bad writing.

 

 

and dont get me started on how the 'cosmic horror' tradition might regard this little rubric of urs - or *magical realism*. fml. if u discover that genre, i hope uve got some ibuprofen handy.

Cosmic horrors are no problem because the whole setting is grounded on the premise that cosmic horrors beyond understanding exist. One of the elements of the setting is that humans are no different from humans in our reality. So if in that world you had an, up to that point, regular human walk up to Cthulhu and eat him "because magic!", then yes—it's bad writing.

 

 

nope, i didnt suggest that.

But you did:

 

in SW, the jedi are using mystical methods to understand a mystical phenomenon.

 

Before Disney nuked the EU, there were other non-Jedi LS force user traditions. And there's precedent of Sith using a systematic, science-based approach to study the Force, the results of which (the creation of life) aren't inherently dark side.

 

It seems Disney judged all that malarkey was undermining the IP's central conflict and USP. Cant say i blame them.

 

 

You cannot "mystically understand" something, which is why Yoda can't explain **** to Luke: "there is no why" and such. You can possibly argue that mysticism can reveal whatever truths and stuff, but actual understanding requires a rational process that relies on questions and answers. Mysticism sidesteps all of that.

 

 

 

u want to insert words in my mouth, crack on bruv, but ull excuse me if i dont participate while u argue with urself.

 

I'm not inserting anything anywhere. I practice safe internetting at all times, thank you very much.

 

 

once more, i suggested horses for courses, that the (imaginary, setting-unique) force could be understood via (imaginary, setting-unique) methods relevant to the force.

 

That's cool. How does absolute and perfect knowledge necessarily follow from it being a mystical approach?

 

 

no they dont.

 

Well, yeah. They won't get fined or jailed for not doing so (although it's debatable whether they should be), so they don't *have* to. But introducing stuff without explanation or purpose, just for the hell of it generally makes for, you guessed it—bad writing.

Edited November 25, 2018 by 213374U

[213374U]

Forum Wars Ep II - The Wall of Text Strikes Back 

 

 

once more for the folks at the back. its not the theme i have an issue with, its the salience of the carrier.

 

The central theme of Star Wars is good vs evil. Exploring how overbearing religious institutions filled with good intentions can do evil out of fear of what they don't understand fits perfectly in the setting. It also sets the scene perfectly for actually good characters to remain steadfast in the face of evil perpetrated in the name of good intentions. Moreover, the crux of a given story is whatever the writer wants to write about.

 

 

if u want to interrogate certain ways of understanding the world, fill ur boots. but i see little point in burdening a series like star wars with that task.

 

It's not even about how the world is perceived. It's simply about the possibility of the Jedi not knowing everything about the force. We do know that this is actually the case, as evidenced by how hilariously bad they are at using the force to stop bad **** going down or even correctly interpreting their own ****ing prophecies. But sure, what the series needs is more death star ripoffs and less exploration of characters, factions and the lore in general. We know that Disney agrees, at least.

 

 

 

eh? why on earth would u have yoda beating palpatine tho?

 

I wouldn't. I'm perfectly fine with Yoda being a flawed, mortal, limited character. His hypocrisy makes him all the more realistic and believable.

 

 

like if palpatines to be taken seriously as an antagonist, he has to be tasty enough to hold his own against the best the good guys have to offer. usual thing is that the master has to get splatted so a student may rise. thats... expected. why would anyone feel cheated by that?

Well, as you say, he's the best the Jedi have. And you're the one arguing that the Jedi have a monopoly on the correct use of the force. If he's the best, and there can be no way to better use the force, then the dark side IS more powerful. We know that this is false, so Jedi clearly do not know everything and there's room for other interpretations.

 

 

sweet lord, ill have to check out for now. i stated the original point i wanted to make and id rather enjoy myself than carry on talking at cross-purposes. also i lost some stuff bcs of browser nonsense. that might have been my fault. imma bit of a tech imbecile.

 

Nope. The forum software is notoriously bad. If you've been writing a post for some time, however, the forum does save periodically, so it's possible to recover it even if your browser crashes. You should have a notice on the lower left corner of the quick reply window reading "Last auto saved: <time>". Click on that, and a new window with whatever's been saved will open.

 

 

ur mainly arguing star wars should fulfil its 'expansive universe' brief with no regard for its original genre because of some platonic ideal of 'good writing' which i dont believe applies to every form.

 

I'm arguing none of the sort. Remember, this all started with "grey" Jedi. Folks with views on what the force is and how best to wield it that don't necessarily mirror the glaringly flawed and incomplete mainstream doctrine of the order, who may or may not be correct, and may or may not end up doing more harm than good.

 

The possibility that such people can exist in the SW universe is literally all I'm arguing.

 

 

 

if u think star wars should ditch the space-fantasy blockbuster angle and mature into something else, thats fair - personally i feel the franchise should have stayed within its remit and that it cant evolve without sacrificing too much of its original identity.

I'm not sure Star Wars has any identity beyond the old themes of good vs evil, the importance of family and friends, and underdogs winning in the end, in a space fantasy context. There's plenty of room there for lots of things.

[213374U]

if you think I've reached peak autism...

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by 213374U

[213374U]

 

Plenty of fictional settings have all individuals subscribing to some belief or political outlook, with no dissidence—this is explained as "because magic" (hive minds, nerve stapling, what have you). The difference is that that sort of thing tends to be a plot device and it is established in advance as part of the "fictional" element, not as a defense against complaints that something makes no sense or needlessly stretches the suspension of disbelief, while serving no narrative purpose other than covering the writer's failure to craft a consistent setting.

 

Using "because magic" to explain action at a distance is fine, if you need that for your story. Using it to dismiss inconsistencies in the internal logic of the world you've crafted is bad writing, is all I'm saying. In this case "humans are not a hive mind and are fully capable of doctrinal disagreement" is one of the (unspoken) foundations of most fictional settings, including Star Wars.

Star Wars is written in a way that pretty much everything can be explained with The Force, because the universe never set any boundaries on what The Force can and cannot do. Quite to opposite actually, we are led to believe that it can do literally anything. So in this case, "because magic" is quite literal. The only time I really thought that it sucks was when Leia did a Jesus in space in the latest movie, that was beyond ridiculous. Other than that, it's fine to me.

 

Yeah, the power of the force seems to be unlimited in Star Wars, and that's fine. Using the force as an excuse to explain why Jedi must all be drones drinking the kool-aid and no other traditions can exist strikes me as exceedingly dumb. Even more so than Space Jesus Leia.

 

Bad writing is bad.

[Manveru123]

But that's how religion is supposed to work. You have a set of rules and you must abide to them. It's very fluid when it comes to catholics, but check Islam for example. Or traditionalists, like the Amish. There is very little room for interpretation. By saying Jedi are dumb, you're basically saying that religion is dumb.

 

Which is something I personally agree with

[ShadySands]

December 11 is the release date for 5.10 but it doesn't really matter for me as I only have one character that is done with all the story so far. Most of my characters ran out of steam in the KOTFE expansion and I don't like the auto-complete story choices. I think only my assassin is going to be able to go through the new content for quite a while.

[ShadySands]

Ran through Ossus with my assassin and enjoyed it well enough but even though it's bigger than the content drips we've been getting it still isn't much content.. though I guess I should play one of my Jedi characters through the story since it's not monostory anymore but I don't know if any of them are even into KOTET

[213374U]

Ran through Ossus with my assassin and enjoyed it well enough but even though it's bigger than the content drips we've been getting it still isn't much content.. though I guess I should play one of my Jedi characters through the story since it's not monostory anymore but I don't know if any of them are even into KOTET

 

As far as I know, you can skip all of KOTFE/KOTET and jump straight into the new content through the mission console in your ship. Default choices will be applied to the character, but it sure beats having to sit through the whole Valkorion Bunch drama.

 

The companions/decisions cluster**** post-patch has all the markings of a bug that will never be truly fixed. To nobody's surprise.

 

Logged in a few days ago to find that my guild is completely dead, and the new "leader" is a dumb broad that can't be arsed to even say hello. So I guess I won't be raiding much... if I keep playing at all.

Edited December 13, 2018 by 213374U

[ShadySands]

I may skip the story for my Jedi Knight but I doubt I will for any other characters because I don't like the default choices, especially for the Empire

[bugarup]

I found this one better on the Pub side. I expected some boombastic overblown "Epic battlez of Epic Gud against Epic Evulz!!" dreck, but it actually was a fairly low key story about dealing with less impressive, but in reality more dangerous aftermaths of war like food shortage. 

 

The area is very beautiful, especially the library outskirts, and decos are fairly nice, I might farm some when it gets lets crowded there. Meanwhile will amuse myself by running around throwing snowballs at black-clad tossers with pretentious names. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by bugarup

[Gorth]

Rumours about a Swtor live action movie/series since Disney really wants a return on their LA investment...

 

Disney reportedly planning Knights of the Old Republic show

 

 

[ShadySands]

Looks like the we'll still be stuck as a saboteur rather than really flipping sides like Anakin

 

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic: Onslaught puts you at the center of the reignited war between the Galactic Republic and the Sith Empire. Will you remain loyal to your faction or work to undermine and sabotage their war efforts? The choice is yours.

 

Explore two new planets, a new Flashpoint on the war-torn world of Corellia, a new Operation set in the lush jungles of Dxun and more! Reap the spoils of war with reworked itemization, an increased level cap, and new abilities. Star Wars: The Old Republic: Onslaught is coming September 2019, free to all subscribers!

Announcing ‘Onslaught’, the Newest Expansion Coming to Star Wars: The Old Republic

[Manveru123]

One new OP and one new flashpoint. Two new zones? Other MMOs have bigger updates in major patches, and this is an expansion :D

 

I'm still interested tho. Need some Star Wars in my blood.

[bugarup]

One new OP and one new flashpoint. Two new zones? Other MMOs have bigger updates in major patches, and this is an expansion :D

 

I'm still interested tho. Need some Star Wars in my blood.

 

Dude, their current team of skellies cannot launch a wee patch without breaking something, don't expect them to come up with something like Hutt expansion. At least stuff is going to be pretty, if the same art team that did Ossus and latest flashpoints is still on board. Anyway, I'm happy to get Onderon, loved it in KOTOR2, shame about operation only Dxun, would love to revisit it too. 

[majestic]

Dude, their current team of skellies cannot launch a wee patch without breaking something, don't expect them to come up with something like Hutt expansion.

 

Rise of the Hutt Cartel only had Makeb and Scum & Villainy (unless you count that instanced "world" boss as content). Very fun additions to the game, but not large. The other stuff like the achievement system in the 2.0 patch was by far and large what the game was supposed to launch with. Compared with the original roadmap that I posted in this thread at some point it's easy to see how BioWare's been selling normal MMO content patches as expansion ever since they had expansions.

 

We're talking about a company releasing an additional operation difficulty level as content patch after all - after months of waiting.

 

Still, wouldn't want to miss having played. I enjoyed the original instances and most of the operations and the things it does well the game does better leaps and bounds ahead of other MMOs. The most important one they kind of failed at though: Creating content at a pace fast enough to retain a healthy player base.

 

I feel like having posted this before. It kinda rhymes, from one stanza to the next. /Lucas

[ShadySands]

I still can't believe they have Galactic Starfighter and Galactic Strongholds listed as expansions. When I was reading an article and it said this was going to be the game's 7th expansion I was like wait, what?