Rant on unique items as requested

[paasi]

While I love crafting and several different types of it, this one i'm not sure works here.

I mean that you can pretty much top any "unique" item in the game by crafting one from a common weapon you found in the rubbish bin.

 

The uniques provided by the game are not unique enough. That basically is the long and short of it. Some have unique meshes and textures, but stop right there. The supporter designed weapons are effective but nondescript, usable only as crafting bases.

 

DEVELOPERS!! PLEASE, HEAR ME OUT!!

 

You can't make an item with enchantments that you can craft yourself and call it unique. Soulbound weapons were a step in the right direction as they provided effects that are not replicable by crafting and are more unusual, though most are just spells cast-on-hit.

 

What I, as a loving fan of this game genre, was disappointed in the most was the lack of imagination in the unique weapons and armor. Yes. I kid you not. I was not as disappointed in the less than immersive side quests as I was in the lack of proper unique weapons and armor. I expected to see something out of Baldur's Gate, like The Equalizer which does variable damage to opponents dependent on their moral alignment or the magical rod which transforms into a longsword, mace and whatnot at the push of a button!

 

Look, cast-on-hit spells on a weapon or piece of armour is a handy thing to have, but it does not make a legendary artifact or a god-cursed weapon of evil. Put some real variables in there, please!

 

Here are some ideas that you are free to use in any way you like:

- Cursed armour which locks up and prevents you from moving like a petrify spell, until either you or a companion frees you with a strength check.

- A holy symbol which radiates light like a torch whose area of illumination is like an impenetrable barrier to all Vessels.

- A mighty blade that cleaves armour like butter, but if wielded by a character with a bad reputation (like cruel 3) has a remote chance of spawning something similiar to a demon to attack you during a fight.

- A crossbow which when launching a quarrel has it split into two or more projectiles and uses a conical area of effect to aim.

[Boeroer]

Erm - who exactly requested this?

[TheisEjsing]

Yes! I got other all new and revolutionary design ideas for weapons you are FREE to use.
 

- A sarcastic talking sword.

- A holy avenging blade for paladins!!!!!

- A super rad ninja blade which has a chance to rain lightning on your enemies! 
- A warhammer which grants a grand boost to might and slays certain constructs on hit

Such innovation, such awesomeness!!

[Tigranes]

It's true though, POE's unique weapons suck and it would be nice to see some interesting ones. 

 

BG1/2 had some wonderful uniques with memorability/flavour as well as gameplay repercussions, though of course that's easier when you don't have crafting. Finding Varscona is a huge deal in early BG; Daystar and Sword of Balduran have specific uses; you have the cursed items sold by Thalantyr; and not to mention the Cloak of the Sewers, all the bonus shop items like Vhailor's Helm, the Ring of Gaxx, that Belt in Trademeet, the missile deflecting shield, bows and slings with unique ammunition, cursed berserker sword, etc.

 

The combination of the dearth of uniques and the way the crafting system (even though I like it) is done is that you have a pretty linear and straightforward relationship to your gear; it's generally a tetris game of maximising the attribute bonuses without overlapping, accommodating the 2 or 3 unique effects you really do want, and then otherwise just tacking on the best bonus you can afford.

[HawkSoft]

The VERY original D&D had a system for creating sentient swords, that was cool but I don't want all the random nonsense that an AD&D (EG) dragon hoard became.

 

I like that most of the weapons in PoE make sense from the point of view of the crafting system, most of the *technology* is still current, Crafting might be a bit too easy, in that you can enchant stuff whilst hiding in a ditch from enraged enemies, but it is consistent with the *feel* (for me) of the setting which I find mechanistic rather than fantastic.

 

The 3.0 beta has some nice tweaks to some of the uniques.

 

My only complaint with the soulbound kit is that it is too concentrated in the area covered by the White March part 1, for obvious reasons. I hope that it gets spread around for for the final release.

[FlintlockJazz]

I'm trying to think of the unique items in BG1 but all I can think of are the ones from BG2.  I think Spiderbane was in 1 right?

[Ineth]

The PoE item system just feels too "systematic".

 

There's a relatively small matrix of possible bonuses, all neatly standardised and systematized, and each "epic" item is basically just defined by which entries of the matrix it ticks off.

 

This regularity and streamlinedness may be a game designer's/balancer's dream, but in the end it makes the items feel mundane and forgettable.

 

A good RPG item system like the one in BG2, successfully obscures the underlying system of "possible property and enchantment combinations" from the player (or at least doesn't require them to think about it), and instead makes each epic item feel fundamentally unique and fascinating.

[Fenixp]

I feel like the systematic solution to unique items sort of goes with more grounded approach to fantasy PoE took - unique equipment is still just equipment with some history behind it. The biggest advantage would be that you don't necessarily have to use it to be effective - you can take any old sword and forge its own story with its own powerful properties.

 

Then again, given how RPGs trained us to perceive progression trough equipment a lot more than story and stats over the years, I can definitely see how that approach would be a problem for a lot of people. And it's not like PoE doesn't contain burning blades already.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Fenixp

[HawkSoft]

The PoE item system just feels too "systematic".

My feeling is that the world of PoE IS systematic, the world of BG1-2 is not.

EG in PoE even souls are something that can be studied and systematised in public facilities (this is a major theme in-game).

 

PoE is not a clone of AD&A, in my view it does not need (EG) A *Deck of Many Things*.

 

I like that the crafting system allows items to be useful throughout the game, there is much less of the arms race you got in BG1-2:

*Only +3? rubbish! sell it…*

 

In POE it's more a case of:

*How does this synergise with the party's skills?*

[scottii]

I'm trying to think of the unique items in BG1 but all I can think of are the ones from BG2.  I think Spiderbane was in 1 right?

yes, you are right.

 

is it me, or does most uniques in this game seem like every other items.  =S

[DreamWayfarer]

is it me, or does most uniques in this game seem like every other items. =S

Well, they do at first, but after sometime exploring how they work and synergise with or even enable certain builds, I feel they are quite interesting and stop feeling as bland as they once did.

 

Plus, I don't want unique items to be mandatory. Sometimes a sword is important not because its maker or previous wilder was the supreme blacksmith or swordmaster, but because its current wielder is a great swordmaster.

 

EDIT: And I hate clear gear progression.

Edited January 26, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[PrimeJunta]

I've... changed my mind.

 

I used to gripe about the too-many interchangeable unique items.

 

Then I started to seriously explore the various properties they have, and discovered that there's a huge amount of fun to be had by optimising characters or parties around them. I'm especially proud of my all-Marking party: split them in pairs and get +10 ACC for everybody. Then there's @Boeroer's time siphon barbarian with Spelltongue, clever ways to make the most of Shod-in-faith, many lulz to be had by equipping the whole party with weapons that inflict Prone on crit etc etc.

 

I mean sure, there are still lackluster "uniques" that only have a unique name, description, and perhaps model, but no unique properties, or unique properties that are so minor they don't really matter, but ... not all that many actually.

 

I.e. at least for me the problem was that I was overwhelmed by the variety and couldn't be arsed to really figure out what those properties meant and how to build characters, combine them with other items, and develop tactics to make the most of them.

 

Once I did, I've started liking the itemization a quite a lot really.

[Boeroer]

In the 3.0 beta some uniques have new and interesting properties. For example the stag helm now grants immunity to the stuck affliction. The hermit's hat (from the looters) now gives +2 INT instead of +1 MIG and grants immunity to confuse. 

 

These changes I really like! Although I never thought that the uniques we have are boring.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Boeroer

[Tigranes]

 

is it me, or does most uniques in this game seem like every other items. =S

Well, they do at first, but after sometime exploring how they work and synergise with or even enable certain builds, I feel they are quite interesting and stop feeling as bland as they once did.

 

Plus, I don't want unique items to be mandatory. Sometimes a sword is important not because its maker or previous wilder was the supreme blacksmith or swordmaster, but because its current wielder is a great swordmaster.

 

EDIT: And I hate clear gear progression.

 

 

The problem is that without the diversity provided by unique items', well, unique properties, you have a very linear gear progression, as I posted above. You just jump from Fine to Exceptional to Superb, jack in the attribute bonuses that don't overlap with your other gear, and so on. It's like going from Sword+1 to Sword+2, with the option of 1d4 Fire or 1d4 Cold damage, instead of going between Tuigan Bow and Gesen's Bow, or getting Crom Faeyr, or Staff of the Air to that unique Druid Staff that summons Shambling Mounds, etc.

 

POE certainly has some unique items, the Soulbounds were added, etc. so it's not like there's nothing, but I do think it could be improved upon.

[Fenixp]

I think that by gear progression, DreamWayfarer means that throughout the entire game, you can keep the weapon you started with and via upgrades, it'll remain effective until the end game. It's pointless of course as you'll find the same weapon already upgraded somewhere at some point, but after the end of Act I, you will replace weapons rarely and it'll be for their properties, not because they do more damage.

[DreamWayfarer]

I think that by gear progression, DreamWayfarer means that throughout the entire game, you can keep the weapon you started with and via upgrades, it'll remain effective until the end game. It's pointless of course as you'll find the same weapon already upgraded somewhere at some point, but after the end of Act I, you will replace weapons rarely and it'll be for their properties, not because they do more damage.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. You don't need uniques, and even if you like them you don't need to replace a unique you like with another because it is suberb instead of exceptional.

 

Although I don't really like the enchantment progression anyway. It still smells of gear progression.

Edited January 26, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Tigranes]

I see. I guess to me upgrading the same weapon to Exceptional, or ditching a +1 Sword for a +2 Sword, is basically the same mindless linear level up. The litmus test is, would the character be OK with just one weapon in their inventory at a time, or are there good reasons to keep several weapons in play? Whether it happens through unique items, the crafting system or whatever else, the game becomes more interesting when you have reasons other than raw power to swap items in and out. And my point would be that POE's uniques don't really contribute to that, and there's really no reason to buy a lot of the uniques. I think overall POE does a decent job, but that there could be more attention to more interesting uniques... which is really impossible to contribute to 'clear gear progression'. 

[Planetus]

Personally, I think the biggest problem is the flood of uniques.  I mean, I've got a stash full of unique weapons, many of which actually give bonuses you can't craft, but none of which really feel like anything THAT special (+2 to survival, +2 to stealth, or +10 defense when prone... for my chanter... who doesn't really need any of those much).  Prone/stun on Crit is nice, draining endurance or time is nice, but a lot of them are just 'meh'.  So I end up with dozens of 'meh' items that are 'supposed' to be legendary and unique and highly valuable.

 

I'd honestly rather see a simple, straight progression with maybe one unique that's truly valuable in the middle and one at the end for each individual weapon type.  So there's one ultimate hatchet, unless you want to use the ultimate mace, or spear, or...  This gives you a much more special feel to finding that one special weapon that a given character favors and would be awesome.

 

More than 3 tiers of advancement would help to.  With that, finding a routine item that's still one step above your current is actually a thing that happens sometimes.  And it feels special, because only one person in your party has a unique weapon, not EVERYONE WITH 5 BACKUPS.

 

That would feel more like the BG series, where you might do two dungeons with only one person in your party having a +3 weapon and everyone else is +2 and hoping for something.  Especially when you start facing golems.

[PrimeJunta]

@Tigranes and others, two thought experiments: would Pillars itemisation be better or worse if --

 

(1) You could no longer apply "Quality" enchantments to items? I.e., an item could only be Fine, Accurate, or Exceptional etc. if you found it that way. Otherwise keep everything the same: you can still apply lashes, slaying, etc.

 

(2) "Quality" enchantments were dropped altogether? Items would never be Accurate, Damaging, Fine, Exceptional etc. The only things setting them apart would be lashes, Spellbinds, on-hit, on-crit effects etc.

Edited January 27, 2016 by PrimeJunta

[HawkSoft]

@Tigranes and others, two thought experiments: would Pillars itemisation be better or worse if --

 

(1) You could longer apply "Quality" enchantments to items? I.e., an item could only be Fine, Accurate, or Exceptional etc. if you found it that way. Otherwise keep everything the same: you can still apply lashes, slaying, etc.

 

(2) "Quality" enchantments were dropped altogether? Items would never be Accurate, Damaging, Fine, Exceptional etc. The only things setting them apart would be lashes, Spellbinds, on-hit, on-crit effects etc.

1. No
2. No

I like the current system except for the fact that you can enchant anywhere and anytime.

I've not had a surplus of the key enchanting suppliers and some (EG dragon scales) are dangerous to obtain.

[DreamWayfarer]

(2) "Quality" enchantments were dropped altogether? Items would never be Accurate, Damaging, Fine, Exceptional etc. The only things setting them apart would be lashes, Spellbinds, on-hit, on-crit effects etc.

While I wouldn't drop them altogether, I'd limit them to Accurate 1, Accurate 2, Damaging 1, Damaging 2 and Fine.

 

Perhaps highter level quality enchantments could be maintained, if they costed enough enchantment slots to make the choice between lower quality and a lash or slaying enchantment versus a highter quality enchantment necessary.

 

And the hightest quality should occupy so many slots it would be impossible to use on unique weapons, to also make the choice between uniques and non-uniques more meaningful.

 

That is what I want: less progression, more diversification.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[AndreaColombo]

@Tigranes and others, two thought experiments: would Pillars itemisation be better or worse if --

 

(1) You could no longer apply "Quality" enchantments to items? I.e., an item could only be Fine, Accurate, or Exceptional etc. if you found it that way. Otherwise keep everything the same: you can still apply lashes, slaying, etc.

 

(2) "Quality" enchantments were dropped altogether? Items would never be Accurate, Damaging, Fine, Exceptional etc. The only things setting them apart would be lashes, Spellbinds, on-hit, on-crit effects etc.

 

As far as I'm personally concerned:

 

(1) No.

 

(2) No.

 

But let the record show that I generally like to power-game, so I'm fond of everything that lets me do that (and vice versa, of course.)

[PrimeJunta]

Power is always relative. If weapon enchantments were removed, base damage would have to be buffed or monster defences nerfed to match.

[Lord_Mord]

In my opinion enchantments and the quality of a weapon have nothing to do with each other. A smith can change the quality of the weapon, a magician can enchant it. A very, very good smith can do both. Maybe. If the player can do it by himself, he needs to be talented in one or both of that things of course. The current system is boring and uninspired as hell.

[AndreaColombo]

^ but it lets me hold onto a weapon I like if I want to, without the fastidious feeling in the back of my head that I am not, in fact, using the most powerful weapon I could.

 

To me, that's invaluable. Appreciate that YMMV; when I play, I pursue power and looks equally (I would never use a powerful combination of items if they looked bad together; I'm OCD and weird like that.)