Attack speed 2.0

[Boeroer]

If you want to debuff multiple targets then yes, but against single targets the ranger is king 

I agree. Stunning Shots alone is awesome.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

 

Thanks a lot guys! 

 

Hah, that's one of the builds I was thinking of testing when I started asking these questions The real question I think is if a version of this build can work at level 6 rather than having to wait till you get to twin elms for Strike Hard. My thought was Shatterstar for its interrupt bonus, paired with Vile Loner's Lance, but maybe it'd be better to pair vile loner's with march steel for the speed bonus and see what happens.

 

What stat distribution did you use? Something like 10/10/15/15/19/8? 

[DreamWayfarer]

 

 

Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

 

Thanks a lot guys!

Hah, that's one of the builds I was thinking of testing when I started asking these questions The real question I think is if a version of this build can work at level 6 rather than having to wait till you get to twin elms for Strike Hard.

I think that if you don't care too much about heavy hits, you could stack as much attack speed and accuracy as possible, going as far as using only one weapon with an empty offhand, and just try to crit as often as possible with the Vile Loner's Lance.

 

I think I'll try it out right now, I already have a mid-level Mosquito-wielding barbarian I could respec.

 

A couple of initial debuffs may be necessary to begin criting, but after it gets going it wouldn't stop anymore.

 

EDIT: tested it with a level 6 barb:

 

I was able to make Pallegina's deflection go from 79 to 64 and stay there. My accuracy against her was 87 (base + 8 from PER + 13 from spear enchanted with accurate2 + 5 from kith-slaying + 12 from one handed + 6 from weapon focus + 4 from Gallant's focus).

 

I am unsure if critical hits increse the duration of disorienting, but I was criting consistently and I think even on PoTD it would be possible to crit often if you debuffed the enemies first.

 

The damage was not exactly great, but I supose the constant interrupting and -15 to all defenses in a large area might make your barbarian a decent support character, and you are still able to kill groups of adds, even if not as fast as a damage-focused barbarian.

 

My stats before gear and buffs:

 

8 MIG

8 CON

19 DEX

16 PER

16 INT

11 RES

 

If you think xaurip skirmishers must make me hate myself, you are right, but I find weaknesses to be fun when they force you to change tatics or plan before fighting.

Edited January 21, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Furism]

 

Just to make sure I understand this right, could somebody please confirm the terminology?

 

What is the difference between "melee speed" and "attack speed" ? Are they the same, except attack speed targets both melee and ranged attack speed?

 

What does Attack Speed include exactly? Is it only recovery frames or animation + recovery frames?

 

What is Fire Rate?

 

Attack speed affects the recovery of all attacks. Melee speed affects only the recovery of melee attacks (including spells benefiting from Vulnerable Attack like Jolting Touch). Ranged speed affects only the recovery of ranged attacks (including ranged spells benefiting from Penetrating Shot like Minoletta's Missiles). Fire rate affects only the recovery of ranged weapons (bows, firearms, implements). The only thing that affects the attack animation is the dex.

 

 

Right, good. Little subtlety that ranged attack include both ranged weapons and spells recovery, while fire rate only weapons recovery.

 

Thanks!

[Boeroer]

I updated the posting. You can do it just as good with Vile Loner's Lance and a small shield. You don't need an empty hand. A durgan refined shield gives you 15% extra speed and more deflection - that's worth it.

 

A good thing is to debuff with a long lasting spell. Aspirant's Mark works really well. When it becomes 1/encounter it will be perfect for this build. At the moment it's 2/rest which isn't superbad. If you start with this the rest of the debuffing will be quicker.

[DreamWayfarer]

I updated the posting. You can do it just as good with Vile Loner's Lance and a small shield. You don't need an empty hand. A durgan refined shield gives you 15% extra speed and more deflection - that's worth it.

 

I did it without a shield because my barb was level 6. I don't know about you more experienced people, but the ogres you fight when you enter Stalwart convinced me to wait some more before trying the rest of the expansion.

 

Plus, 12 extra accuracy is nice for carnage . And the extra deflection is not that useful if the shield is not very upgraded, since my barb is not very tanky anyway, and I can't upgrade all my gear yet.

Edited January 20, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Boeroer]

That's right.

 

Level 6 is a bit early for Stalwart.

[Furism]

Is there a reliable list somewhere with the correct frame count for each type of attack speed? I'd like to know exactly how many frames/seconds each category (Fast, Average, Slow, etc..) is exactly.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Is there a reliable list somewhere with the correct frame count for each type of attack speed? I'd like to know exactly how many frames/seconds each category (Fast, Average, Slow, etc..) is exactly.

 

Thread I linked above, few posts down.

 

edit: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/72272-combat-mechanics-attack-speed-recovery/?p=1603618

Edited January 21, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Mercbeast]

I'm sorry to rain on your proverbial parade, but DEX applies multiplicatively after everything else, which means you can't really count on it if your objective is to achieve 0 recovery. Still plenty useful for speeding up everything else and/or bring your recovery down to very low numbers, but since you said attribute points are premium for what you have in mind, I suppose we're not going down that route.

 

The math in your example would be as follows:

 

155% recovery (100% + 35% durgan-refined plate + 20% vulnerable attack)

 

-131% recovery penalty  (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

which would give you 24% recovery time before dexterity (in the case of dual-wielding, we're looking at about 6 frames of recovery + the 4-frame delay.)

 

If you also wear the Gauntlets of Swift Action:

 

-162% (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan x1.15 gauntlets + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

then you'd have 0 recovery before dexterity

 

Does this mean if your goal is to reach 0 recovery, 10 dex will work fine? In other words, does this mean that putting points into dex are basically wasted points if this is your goal?

[AndreaColombo]

Does this mean if your goal is to reach 0 recovery, 10 dex will work fine? In other words, does this mean that putting points into dex are basically wasted points if this is your goal?

 

Yes. The only way you can reach 0 recovery through DEX is by having a 100% Action Speed bonus from it, which is unattainable (your every action would last 0 frames.)

 

If all you want is 0 recovery, you need to stack as many attack speed bonuses as required. If you're left with any recovery after those, DEX will only reduce it by the Action Speed bonus you have which, being a percentage bonus, will never completely eliminate it.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

I'm sorry to rain on your proverbial parade, but DEX applies multiplicatively after everything else, which means you can't really count on it if your objective is to achieve 0 recovery. Still plenty useful for speeding up everything else and/or bring your recovery down to very low numbers, but since you said attribute points are premium for what you have in mind, I suppose we're not going down that route.

 

The math in your example would be as follows:

 

155% recovery (100% + 35% durgan-refined plate + 20% vulnerable attack)

 

-131% recovery penalty  (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

which would give you 24% recovery time before dexterity (in the case of dual-wielding, we're looking at about 6 frames of recovery + the 4-frame delay.)

 

If you also wear the Gauntlets of Swift Action:

 

-162% (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan x1.15 gauntlets + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

 

then you'd have 0 recovery before dexterity

 

Does this mean if your goal is to reach 0 recovery, 10 dex will work fine? In other words, does this mean that putting points into dex are basically wasted points if this is your goal?

 

 

 

Yes, but also no.

 

In practice your goal isn't reaching 0 recovery; your goal is attacking more quickly. And since the animation has two halves -- attack animation and recovery animation -- and dex is the only thing that reduces the attack animation, even if you reduce your recovery animation to zero, you still benefit from dex reducing the attack animation.

 

Second is the amount of effort and stage in the game that you reach 0 recovery. With a starting 20 dex, you can reduce both your attack animation and your recovery animation by 39%, each, as soon as you reach defiance bay (and buy Finreath's Grace for +3 more dex). Presuming an otherwise-naked character, that's a reduction of roughly 28 frames, or the same amount of gain you'd get by reaching 22% recovery if you had 10 base dex -- something you'd only achieve after getting durgan gear etc.

 

Alternatively, look at it like this. Two characters, each with recovery of 0 due to badass gear, but one has 23 dex with gear and one has 10 dex.  The 10-dex character is attacking every 34 frames. The 23-dex character is attacking every  22 frames, or roughly 36% faster (I think that math is correct). 

 

End of the day I suspect each additional point of dexterity probably does more to increase a given character's DPS than a point of any other stat will (barring unusual setups like a very-high-int character casting per-rest AoE spells over massed enemy groups.)

 

Another way of phrasing this: the more you invest in speed, the larger your fractional gain from each additional point of dex is going to be. Each point of dexterity takes 3% off of a standard 66-frame attack and recovery animation, i.e, roughly two frames. On the other hand, if your recovery is down to 0, it'll take one frame off of a 30 frame animation -- but that one frame reduction is a bigger chunk of 30 than two frames are a chunk of 66 (because the recovery animation has a few extra frames). 

 

 

(all this math done in my head so apologies if I made some errors).

Edited January 21, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Boeroer]

So when I reach 0 recovery I could basically retrain DEX to 3, right? Because +21% recovery of zero is still zero...? 

[AndreaColombo]

End of the day I suspect each additional point of dexterity probably does more to increase a given character's DPS than a point of any other stat will (barring unusual setups like a very-high-int character casting per-rest AoE spells over massed enemy groups.) 

 

This is only true if you have a high damage output and high DR bypass. The quicker you attack, the more damage you'll lose to your enemies' DR, so you need DR bypass and high damage to punch through as much as possible. IIRC, Matt traced a graph back in the beta days showing the correlation of MIG and DEX to DPS and it was X shaped: Up to a certain point, MIG contributes more to your DPS than DEX; then they "meet" and from that point on, DEX contributes more than MIG.

 

EDIT: Just checked and it was not X shaped in the version of Matt's and Sensuki's paper I have. The paper still expresses the same point as I have, though.

 

 

Boeroer—I still wouldn't dump DEX because it's the only thing that speeds up everything, and recovery is not everything As Dr. Hieronymous rightfully points out, DEX still speeds up your attack animation, which is equally important for DPS. It also speeds up your casting, sipping potions, switching weapons, and using scrolls.

 

If you retrained to 3 DEX, your attack animation would slow down so much you'd practically eat away at the benefits of your 0 recovery.

Edited January 21, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

Sure - but the recovery stays at zero.

[AndreaColombo]

^ Well, yes. Your attack animation would last about 38 frames instead of 30, and with the 4-frame delay your total attack speed would be 42 frames. Still not too bad; I was expecting worse.

 

But I don't think I'll be dumping DEX on any of my characters anyway; I like speedy play

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

End of the day I suspect each additional point of dexterity probably does more to increase a given character's DPS than a point of any other stat will (barring unusual setups like a very-high-int character casting per-rest AoE spells over massed enemy groups.) 

 

This is only true if you have a high damage output and high DR bypass. The quicker you attack, the more damage you'll lose to your enemies' DR, so you need DR bypass and high damage to punch through as much as possible. IIRC, Matt traced a graph back in the beta days showing the correlation of MIG and DEX to DPS and it was X shaped: Up to a certain point, MIG contributes more to your DPS than DEX; then they "meet" and from that point on, DEX contributes more than MIG.

 

 

Good point, but my thought process was that all else being equal, there are a lot more ways to either raise damage or raise DR bypass than there are to raise attack animation speed. 

 

You can increase your damage three ways -- increasing accuracy, increasing the damage total per attack, or increasing frequency of attacks. Per and Might and help with the first two but there are other ways to accomplish them (accuracy buffs, DR bypass, damage buffs, weapon enchants, etc.). The only way to increase attack animation though is Dex. So, generally speaking, for any given character, you'll get more gain from prioritizing Dex than from anything else, because you have alternative sources of damage and accuracy but no (equivalent) alternative sources of speed.

 

I used to think that this difference was trivial because of human reaction time -- dex can only make so much difference when we're talking frame counts, because people don't click that fast -- but the new AI is actually pretty good and reduces that concern significantly. I frequently find my cipher halfway through casting Eyestrike now right around the time I realize I should be casting it.

[Kaylon]

Dex isn't useless because it's the only thing that can reduce the attack animation (and also reduce further the reload animation of ranged weapons). However the speed bonus from dex works differently - the total action frames (attack+recovery+reload) are divided by (1+DexBonus). If we consider BaseAttack the attack delay for someone with 10dex, then someone with 20dex will have an attack delay of BaseAttack/(1+0.3).

 

PS. The max dex you can reach is 38 which will reduce the animations lengths to 54%.

[Furism]

Does Dex also improve spell casting animation and recovery frames? I'm reaching a point where my Cipher has more focus than she can spend, and I'm wondering if I could improve the casting times to spend my extra focus on things like Mind Wave.

[AndreaColombo]

^ yes, it does. I consider it a very important stat for casters.

[Boeroer]

Amplified Wave is fast and nice. But you won't get rid of your focus since it generates it's own.

[Livegood118]

Thanks so much to Kaylon for doing the math for this thread, it's made me rethink a lot of my builds and made high attack speed tactics even more viable.

 

Can anyone confirm the following math for me:

 

Fighter/10 Dex/Sanguine Plate/DW Sword of Daenysis (Durgan) + Spelltongue (Durgan)

 

Attacked speed mod = 1.15 (Durgan Wep) * 1.15 (Durgan Wep) * 1.1 (Spelltongue) * 1.33 (Sanguine Frenzy) * 1.2 (Sword of Daenysis) = -132%

 

Armour Penalty = 50% (Base Sanguine) - 20% (Armoured Grace) - 15% (Durgan Armour) = 15%

 

Two Weapon Fighting  = -20%

 

Vulnerable Attack = +20%

 

Total Recovery Bonus = -132% (Attack Speed Mod) + 15 (Armour Penalty) - 20 (Two Weapon Fighting) + 20 (Vulnerable Attack)

= -114%

 

Therefore, 0 frames with .14 recovery% to spare

Edited January 25, 2016 by Livegood118

[Boeroer]

Amplified Wave is fast and nice. But you won't get rid of your focus since it generates it's own.

Argh - I meant Amplified Thrust - so sorry!

 

Spelltongue actually does +15% attack speed despite it's description (if I'm not misstaken).

Besides this I think you calculated it correctly.

[Furism]

Has anybody noticed any change in the 3.0 beta with regards to Attack Speed?

[MaxQuest]

It's a bit surprising that there is nowhere to be found up-to-date and accurate source of weapon speed frame-times.

I have made few speed tests today. If anyone is interested, results can be found here: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ9tL1yRSekjFPUew5LS3-WRgpXuS76ZKHIuns1QWTY/edit#gid=0

 

P.S. Confirming that Swift Aim's reloading bonus overrides that of "Sure-Handed Ila Nocked Her Arrows with Speed" chant.

Edited May 8, 2016 by MaxQuest