3.00 patch teased by Josh on SA

[DreamWayfarer]

And, of course, we can't end this discussion without reiterating that level scaling in all forms, critical or non-critical path - a little or a lot, is a disgrace.

Please elaborate why. I am curious why making the game enjoyable by completionists and non-completionists is a "disgrace" even if it is done only with part of the content, and does not allow such things as simple bandits being better armed than a thayn's guard or someone who did no sidequests being able to kill a legendary sorceror in a high-level sidequest.

[Fenixp]

More importantly, some games can't even function without level scaling at all. Take Neverwinter Nights for example - at the beginning, the game offers you 3 big quests that you can complete in any order you'd like to. So either you'll freeze player at level 1 (!!) for a big chunk of the game, you actually don't give him any choice at all and kick him out of two of the three choices or you introduce level scaling so that he actually has a choice and all areas remain challenging.

 

Level scaling is a design tool which can be used well and it can be used badly - it's been around for nearly as long as RPGs are, in one form or another.

[Gromnir]

Eh, I find it a little bit sad that some people blame everything on Joshy's "ominous balance" (often in jest surely). 

 

am sad that folks so frequent attribute the entirety o' poe balance issues to josh.  from what little we know, tim cain had considerable (equal?) input regarding combat and mechanics issues, and we bet that many other folks at obsidian has had significant contributions.  do a disservice to the rest o' obsidians to pretend that josh handcrafted poe. josh is visible and responsive, so he is the piñata for old skool ire? 

 

*snort*

 

over the years, we suspect that few folks has been as tough on josh as has Gromnir, but we don't understand the tendency to act as if obsidian and poe design decisions were josh decisions. 

 

josh is more mature these days, so is unlikely to happen, but in the past, if he got angry or frustrated, josh might vent a bit on boards such as these.  sure, he spent considerable effort defending HoW and IWD2 design choices 'cause that is what a good team member is 'posed to do.  older and more mature josh knows that you don't throw the rest o' the team under the bus, no matter how disappointed you might be personally.  that being the case, in the distant past, josh would forget the team for a moment and do his best brandon marshall impersonation.  in those less dignified moments, we got a glimpse o' how josh felt 'bout working with wotc or his regret regarding shortcuts taken during HoW development.  

 

*shrug*

 

josh is visible, so he personal takes heat for obsidian design choices.  fine.  we get it.  even so, it continues to surprise us that folks seem to believe that poe balance were josh's balance.  

 

is weird.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps please fix those "known" 3.0 issues sooner rather than later.  we ain't played the game for months, but our all-priest party is much hampered by the complete fail o' seal spells for 3.0.

[Valorian]

 

Please elaborate why. I am curious why making the game enjoyable by completionists and non-completionists is a "disgrace" even if it is done only with part of the content, and does not allow such things as simple bandits being better armed than a thayn's guard or someone who did no sidequests being able to kill a legendary sorceror in a high-level sidequest.

 

 

I'm certain there are many completionists and non-completionists who don't find level scaling enjoyable at all.

 

Killing high-level legendary sorcerers should be a privilege of those who are powerful enough. Power through experience and practice, muscle wizards and stuff. Ideally, the sorcerer isn't a yo-yo that goes up and down to service your leveling sensibilities.

There have been countless threads about level scaling. I think there's no need to transform this topic into one of them and addressing "some games can't even function without level scaling at all" sort of silliness would do just that.

[DreamWayfarer]

Killing high-level legendary sorcerers should be a privilege of those who are powerful enough. Power through experience and practice, muscle wizards and stuff. Ideally, the sorcerer isn't a yo-yo that goes up and down to service your leveling sensibilities.

Re-read my post. Said wizard would not be affected by level scaling and always be high level, if he was part of a high level sidequest. I was talking about scaling reserved to critical path.

[Valorian]

 

Killing high-level legendary sorcerers should be a privilege of those who are powerful enough. Power through experience and practice, muscle wizards and stuff. Ideally, the sorcerer isn't a yo-yo that goes up and down to service your leveling sensibilities.

Re-read my post. Said wizard would not be affected by level scaling and always be high level, if he was part of a high level sidequest. I was talking about scaling reserved to critical path.

 

 

You're right, I skipped some parts of your post. Said sorcerer is the end boss now; my post working as intended.

[DreamWayfarer]

You're right, I skipped some parts of your post. Said sorcerer is the end boss now; my post working as intended.

What if the game gives the idea the main quest is about a very imediate threat and I roleplay a character who wouldn't divert his attention from stoping it for long, in which case I am unable to do more than, say, a third of the sidequests per playthrought?

 

If the boss will wait in his dungeon for the hero to level up instead of unleashing a plague over the nation or sending assassins to kill our friends while we steal dragon eggs or investigate murders, then he may as well level down if the hero decides to stop him right now.

 

EDIT: In fact, that is something I hate about most RPGs, Pillars included: the developers feel forced to include loads of sidequests and exploration, yet make a main quest something that feels imediate and with very high stakes, so it makes little sense from a in-character perspective to explore and do sidequests.

 

If all the effort that went into sidequests and areas was used instead to make the main quest longer and give it branching paths afected by the player's choices, I feel this game would be much bettee.

 

But them, it wouldn't be the same game in the end, so thinking about it is pointless.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Valorian]

 

You're right, I skipped some parts of your post. Said sorcerer is the end boss now; my post working as intended.

What if the game gives the idea the main quest is about a very imediate threat and I roleplay a character who wouldn't divert his attention from stoping it for long, in which case I am unabke to do more than, say, a third of the sidequests per playthrought?

 

If the boss will wait in his dungeon for the hero to level up instead of unleashing a plague over the nation or sending assassins to kill our friends while we steal dragon eggs or investigate murders, then he may as well level down if the hero decides to stop him right now.

 

 

Timed quests and level scaling are vastly different concepts. I have nothing against the former on a philosophical level, though it can be quite annoying especially if the quest-clock is constantly ticking (e.g. while walking around).

 

Sure, you can risk facing the enemy unprepared because you're roleplaying someone with a low wisdom score and because it's urgent and then get flattened. That's how things work in life anyhow.

[DreamWayfarer]

Timed quests and level scaling are vastly different concepts. I have nothing against the former on a philosophical level, though it can be quite annoying especially if the quest-clock is constantly ticking (e.g. while walking around).

 

I am trying to say that from an immersion-based perspective, lack of timed quests is as bad as level scaling.

 

Sure, you can risk facing the enemy unprepared because you're roleplaying someone with a low wisdom score and because it's urgent and then get flattened. That's how things work in life anyhow.

If it was supposed to work like in real life, all quests would be timed and completionists would get killed with everyone when the baddie summoned a archdemon or became a god or started a world war, while those who stayed focused on their quest would save the world or die trying. But in the eyes of most it is not as fun as giving freedom to the player. Edited January 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[redneckdevil]

One good thing about pillars is that I felt like I knew their was a big threat but I wasn't necessarily in a hurry to find it and vanguish it because basically the bbeg has been doing his thing already and damage is already done. So yes there's someone I need to find/stop BUT I'm not forced to be in a hurry besides losing my sanity because what else is gonna happen? Like it's not to stop an attack, the bbeg has already attacked and people are trying to live and survive thru the attacks that have been happening for years. If that makes any sense.

[DreamWayfarer]

@redneckdevil: yes, it does make sense. However, there is also the problem that Twin Helms is gated by the main questline, so before the load of additional content from White March came, you had to do the main quest even if you didn't care to acess high level content.

 

However I must admit PoE did it much better than most RPGs I can think of.

 

 

 

EDIT: About level scaling:

part of the problem with level-scaling and immersion comes from the fact the way leveling up in RPGs work is not immersive at all upon close inspection. People learn new skills and master their choosen fields over the course of many months or years, while in RPGs you often start barely above a regular villager with a sword and after three months end up as a swordmaster fighting demigods.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[why]

I might complain about Mr Sawyer's balance lovin' tendencies, but I don't mean anything by it. I've been lurking here for a while, but I'm still a new member and I don't want to be run out of town or anything.

 

As far as quest urgency, that's another issue because even if the main quest isn't especially urgent, there are normally at least some quests that have the trappings of uegency if not the explicit expectation of it.

 

On one end, folks hate to be rushed through side content. On the other hand, there is the discrepancy of urgency opposing freedom. On the mutant third hand, trying zto xontrive ways to diminish the urgency of every quest in order to accommodate the freedom idea startz to get silly in and of itself.

[Torm51]

One good thing about pillars is that I felt like I knew their was a big threat but I wasn't necessarily in a hurry to find it and vanguish it because basically the bbeg has been doing his thing already and damage is already done. So yes there's someone I need to find/stop BUT I'm not forced to be in a hurry besides losing my sanity because what else is gonna happen? Like it's not to stop an attack, the bbeg has already attacked and people are trying to live and survive thru the attacks that have been happening for years. If that makes any sense.

agreed

[AndreaColombo]

The final boss in PoE is not "a privilege" to fight for high-level completionist characters. It is a wuss. Just saying.

[why]

I can make one observation, but I'm not sure how compelling it is in the overall scheme of things. If I get pushback, so be it. I can take the heat without getting angry about it.

 

So, to set this up, I'm almost done with my second run. I've experimented a lot, but I only had one complete run on normal and I'm doing a run on hard right now before I go to PotD. After that, I'll consider vanity runs for badges and whatnot. Anyhow, in my current run, I've run into a quest that asks me to murder either a child or an extremely old elf. My character refuses to do either one. I believe I didn't finish it in the earlier run either. I actually kind of like the fact that I'm not scrimping on experience and levels so much that I feel compelled to finish this quest in one manner or another. My character refuses to murder anyone in cold blood, and I'm not significantly punished for that decision. Now, to be fair, I would make the decision anyhow, but this is a role playing game. It's not all about stats and levels. Sure, doing what I want regardless of the price is a reward in and of itself, but it's nice to know that I don't have to be a slave to the prospect of more experience points in order to enjoy the experience.

 

Now, it's late where I live and so I might be a tad diminished, but sometimes I think rewards and scaling and experience points and the like have become distilled into a sort of elixir that intoxicates us as players so much that we lose sight of the thing that RPGs offer more than other genres, namely the opportunity to be part of the story without being enslaved or imprisoned by it. ...Or not. Whatever. I'll probably read this in the morning and wonder what the hell I was thinking.

[AndreaColombo]

sometimes I think rewards and scaling and experience points and the like have become distilled into a sort of elixir that intoxicates us as players so much that we lose sight of the thing that RPGs offer more than other genres, namely the opportunity to be part of the story without being enslaved or imprisoned by it. ...Or not. Whatever. I'll probably read this in the morning and wonder what the hell I was thinking.

 

I agree, to an extent.

 

Game mechanics being overemphasized and prioritized over narrative and storytelling is an issue, if not THE issue, with most modern RPGs. If I had to choose between a game with good writing and a good story, and a game with great mechanics, I would pick the former. Thankfully, later this year a game is being released (Torment: Tides of Numenera) that puts a lot more focus on writing and narrative design than on mechanics (though hopefully mechanics will be fun too.)

 

BUT ... in an ideal world, we get both—and PoE is a game that provides both as far as I'm concerned. It's got good writing, a good story, and fun mechanics that enable players to be really powerful if they want to.

 

The issue at hand, I believe, is different. The problem is that if you are completionist and hit the level cap in PoE—regardless of whether you are running optimized builds—nothing will challenge you anymore. You'll be too powerful for pretty much any challenge, including the boss fight, even at the highest difficulty setting and with the optional level scaling enabled. Steamrolling everything so easily has the sour backtaste of overkill, where a voice in your head keeps saying, "You could have done this with a lot less. You're practically killing ants with a nuclear bomb." After all the time and effort invested in hitting the level cap, and perhaps in optimizing my build, it feels rather unrewarding that I can't enjoy it for a few fights because everything is so massively weaker.

Edited January 28, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[HawkSoft]

Now, it's late where I live and so I might be a tad diminished, but sometimes I think rewards and scaling and experience points and the like have become distilled into a sort of elixir that intoxicates us as players so much that we lose sight of the thing that RPGs offer more than other genres, namely the opportunity to be part of the story without being enslaved or imprisoned by it. ...Or not. Whatever. I'll probably read this in the morning and wonder what the hell I was thinking.

I think the saddest reflection of this is players who consider (EG) Steam achievements to be an end in themselves and complain when it is impossible for them to *earn* 100% of them for a specific game.

[gogocactus]

Self-edit : agreed with HawkSoft above.

Edited January 28, 2016 by gogocactus

[Valorian]

I might complain about Mr Sawyer's balance lovin' tendencies, but I don't mean anything by it. 

 

It wasn't a jab at you, I just wanted to use "ominous" and "balance" together. hihi

No, for realz, it wasn't directed at you.

[Eisenheinrich]

When comes the Twitch-Video with new gameplay?

[Enkeli]

As a POE newbie on my second playthrough it feels really hard to know what the proper time is to enter each area in order to experience it at the intended level. 

 

 

The intended level is whatever level you end up at and enemies are intended as Standard sayeth. Late game on Standard should be challenging and people should not be upset if they find enemies on hard or normal too hard (omg enemy I'm in a hurry let me pass want to know what happens next with the storee?) after ignoring half the quests in the game.

 

And, of course, we can't end this discussion without reiterating that level scaling in all forms, critical or non-critical path - a little or a lot, is a disgrace. Being able to totally avoid it with a click is fine though.

Maybe I wasn´t clear in my post, since I wasn´t hoping for level scaling to make the game easier, but harder. My point was that it is hard to know just how many side quests I can do and in what order I should do them so that they do not become too easy. Actually it feels like there is so much experience to go around in the game that no matter what order I do things in, some otherwise well designed areas / encounters are going to become very unchallenging and thus boring. So I am missing out on a lot of content which the designers meant to be challenging and fun. This seems like a problem that could be avoided with just a moderate amount of level scaling. I think AndreaColombo stated this really well in his post above.

 

It feels like people are attacking strawmen - I haven´t seen anyone suggest level scaling of encounters to be easier, or that farmer Joe´s pigs should be harder to kill than dragons if we only choose to attack them at level 14. Having optional level scaling to make the end game harder for completionists on POTD difficulty doesn´t imply either of these problematic forms of level scaling.

[TheisEjsing]

http://www.pcgamer.com/first-look-at-a-mysterious-new-pillars-of-eternity-location/

pcgamer just posted some new info, atleast new to me. Sounds pretty cool!