The current refugee wave in Europe

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

The Saudis are tolerated and celebrated by the realpolitikers and the useful idiots because they are bought and therefore follow the current agenda of a global world. That's why the other guys like Putin are hated, and not because for that they care little about the freedoms of their people.

Take your friend Bruce for example, how unlikely is it that your family or extended connections have financial interest in Saudi businesses?

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West

But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking?

Meshugger · October 31, 2015

The Saudis are tolerated and celebrated by the realpolitikers and the useful idiots because they are bought and therefore follow the current agenda of a global world. That's why the other guys like Putin are hated, and not because for that they care little about the freedoms of their people.

Take your friend Bruce for example, how unlikely is it that your family or extended connections have financial interest in Saudi businesses?

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West

But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking?

It's good that you come forward and admit your intensions instead of trying to have a moral authority on the matter. I suggest talking to priest for some further soul-searcihng.

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

The Saudis are tolerated and celebrated by the realpolitikers and the useful idiots because they are bought and therefore follow the current agenda of a global world. That's why the other guys like Putin are hated, and not because for that they care little about the freedoms of their people.

Take your friend Bruce for example, how unlikely is it that your family or extended connections have financial interest in Saudi businesses?

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West

But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking?

It's good that you come forward and admit your intensions instead of trying to have a moral authority on the matter. I suggest talking to priest for some further soul-searcihng.

Dude what is confusing you? My point about Saudi Arabia I would have thought by now is clear. I dont like there culture or like the many areas they lack in SJ....but this would not be enough for me to not go there for work or to accept they are an ally of the West

And I have no issues with people in trading in Saudi commodities...but I admit there campaign to undermine the USA shale corporations has caused some serious financial woes. One of my cousins good friends works for a Western Saudi oil trading company and was based in Saudi. He use to love it, he was good friends with someone who knew one of the royal princes and the Saudi's took a real liking to him because he was good, he really knew the oil market. Anyway he never believed the Saudis would last this long, they are really impacting there economy now by keeping oil production low. This guy I know has been basically made redundant because there isn't much work now for people like him Saudi

Fighter · October 31, 2015

Bruce you're only defending SA because they're a western ally and you don't want to admit what kind of a sh*t your role models can easily tolerate when it suits them.

Not mentioned also. Everyone pretty much knows Saudi regime "secretly" funds and supports islamist militants all over. Including ISIS.

No, I was there when they were mourning

It was real, they do have "love and respect " for the royal family

Its weird how so many of you guys seem to dislike Saudi Arabia and it seems to be because of these odd examples of how there religious law gets implemented in an extreme way?

Sometimes a wife gets beaten by her husband yet she still cares for him and makes excuses for him. So it's ok because she's ok?

You think the Korean hysteria is fake? It's not entirely though. And that's the point.

I don't get why you care?

Why not? A couple of post about it is hardly noteworthy if you're implying I care unreasonably much.

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

Bruce you're only defending SA because they're a western ally and you don't want to admit what kind of a sh*t your role models can easily tolerate when it suits them.

Not mentioned also. Everyone pretty much knows Saudi regime "secretly" funds and supports islamist militants all over. Including ISIS.

No, I was there when they were mourning

It was real, they do have "love and respect " for the royal family

Its weird how so many of you guys seem to dislike Saudi Arabia and it seems to be because of these odd examples of how there religious law gets implemented in an extreme way?

Sometimes a wife gets beaten by her husband yet she still cares for him and makes excuses for him. So it's ok because she's ok?

You think the Korean hysteria is fake? It's not entirely though. And that's the point.

I don't get why you care?

Why not? A couple of post about it is hardly noteworthy if you're implying I care unreasonably much.

Fighter before I respond I just want to add something, I have noticed you are one of the people from the GG thread who engages with me since I apologized and I appreciate that. I am not sure who talks to me and who doesn't sometimes but I would like us to continue to debate. I never Troll, I only joke and not on a thread like this. Sometimes I make a point and its not clear...this is not a problem with your comprehension but rather with how I am making the point , so just ask me clarify as I am not trolling and its important I make my points so you understand them...thats obviously not the same as agreeing

Now back to the debate. Yes, sure I always believe reasonable justification for any political alliance is necessary where the West is involved. But I really don't believe Saudi Arabia is anywhere as bad as ISIS....also I can assure you that Saudi Arabia has helped the West fight Al-Qaeda

The point about Saudi " funding terrorism" is often misunderstood, there are Saudi citizens who have ideological sympathies with Islamic extremist groups and yes they fund them but its not the same thing as the actual Saudi royal family funding them

Yeah I agree, I have no idea how real there " love and respect is " ...you right. It could be more of a expected response

No I didn't mean your efforts in this debate, I am enjoying your perspective. I mean why do we care if some Saudi's are killed due to Sharia law ?

Elerond · October 31, 2015

So in other words you say we should have double morality... do not bat an eyelash against those who sell us oil and give space for military bases, but hinder economics and fight the ones that do not like us, because we were not very good to them in the past, like Iran?

What is the difference between Sauds, Assad and Iran? NONE, aside of the branch of muslim belief and who allows military presence... We either condemn ALL such behaviors and alienate all of them, or we stop playing judges and consider ourselves better than such primitives.

Do you think that countries like Syria and Iran do not have moderates? they do, but when the moderates in those countries want some support they gt weapon and insurgents, but if someone does the same in Saudi Arabia, they get beheaded and no one in power does anything about it.

That isn't sound strategy it is better to be ally some of those that you don't like and enemy for some and make them fight each other. As it is much cheaper. And if your ally starts to become too strong and starts to behave so that negatives out weight positives then just change support from them to their enemies.

Roman's already prove that dived and conquer is excellent strategy to control areas that you don't care.

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

So in other words you say we should have double morality... do not bat an eyelash against those who sell us oil and give space for military bases, but hinder economics and fight the ones that do not like us, because we were not very good to them in the past, like Iran?

What is the difference between Sauds, Assad and Iran? NONE, aside of the branch of muslim belief and who allows military presence... We either condemn ALL such behaviors and alienate all of them, or we stop playing judges and consider ourselves better than such primitives.

Do you think that countries like Syria and Iran do not have moderates? they do, but when the moderates in those countries want some support they gt weapon and insurgents, but if someone does the same in Saudi Arabia, they get beheaded and no one in power does anything about it.

That isn't sound strategy it is better to be ally some of those that you don't like and enemy for some and make them fight each other. As it is much cheaper. And if your ally starts to become too strong and starts to behave so that negatives out weight positives then just change support from them to their enemies.

Roman's already prove that dived and conquer is excellent strategy to control areas that you don't care.

Elerond why isn't your fellow Finn Meshugger as reasonable as you? Please speak to him ..he will listen to you :biggrin:

Fighter · October 31, 2015

I did not go looking for this, stumbled by accident. Couldn't help but bring it here when I saw it. Can't vouch for how true this is.

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

I did not go looking for this, stumbled by accident. Couldn't help but bring it here when I saw it. Can't vouch for how true this is.

Yeah it seems right but the real issue for me about ISIS is how they conduct themselves on the battlefield and how they treat any non Sunni, things like slavery, systemic rape, murder, torture,beheadings ...they are always in gross violation of various war crimes. The Saudi army at least tries to stick to the Geneva Convention

Fighter can I ask you a few questions about your view on some Russian topics?

Elerond · October 31, 2015

Most meaningful difference is that Saudi Arabia keeps their barbaric acts inside of their own country where ISIS constantly tries to/does conquer new areas which population they force to follow their laws or enslave/kill. Also they aren't willing to peacefully go exist with other nations but actively seek to get people do terrorist attacks in them and their citizens to join ranks of ISIS. Which are things that cause problems (like trade disrupts, refugees, rising opposition for their leaders, etc.) to other nations, which means that other nations can't just ignore them and do public theater of condemn their laws and actions in public speeches but actually doing nothing to stop them.

Fighter · October 31, 2015

Fighter can I ask you a few questions about your view on some Russian topics?

Sure.

Hurlshort · October 31, 2015

Relevant:

http://www.cfr.org/saudi-arabia/us-saudi-relations/p36524

Not really sure what the point of this discussion is. It doesn't make ISIS any less terrible.

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

Fighter can I ask you a few questions about your view on some Russian topics?

Sure.

So firstly I want to set the record straight in case I have created the wrong impression. You know I support the West but that doens't mean I would think that the whole world needs to become like a Western country....no I completely understand that countries like Russia and China will always have there own ideology

Also Russia is a very important player in the future of a more stable world and for me the sooner this tension ends with the West the better for everyone. Now when I say important I think you Russians even forget that but I'm not just saying that because you Russian...I would be polite and honest if I felt Russia wasn't relevant on the global arena. Now some of the reasons that Russia is very relevant

They sit on the UNSC and they could effectively VETO all requests for military intervention or sanctions and this would truly make the UNSC useless and despite what people will suggest the UNSC does get to consensus and is effective ..like the Iranian sanctions
Russia has certain relationships and influence that the West doesn't have, like with Iran and Syria. Russia seems to be automatically " trusted " by some countries because they not the West
Russia is a nuclear power and China will often align itself to Russia...we don't want even a hint of a real military conflict or another Cold War...the world can coexist
Russia is part of BRICS and of course so is South Africa so we have vested economic interest

Then I studied and observed as much of Russia and what motivates Putin as any other person. I probably know more than you think but I still am not sure of many things. Anyway I don't automatically expect you to know all these answers but your view on what you feel you can answer will be appreciated

Where in Russia do you live and how come is your English so good ?
What does the average Russian think the West wants from Russia? Do they see the West as some sort of bully
How do you feel about China
What do you understand about the sanctions, do you feel they are unfair and are you feeling there impact?
Why do you think Putin felt the need to absorb Crimea and basically try to absorb eastern Ukraine....why doesn't he trust the West?

Thats all for now

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

Relevant:

http://www.cfr.org/saudi-arabia/us-saudi-relations/p36524

Not really sure what the point of this discussion is. It doesn't make ISIS any less terrible.

Thanks Hurlshot, I can always rely on you to play the " teacher card " and post a good article :thumbsup:

That's a good read and is very objective. It makes no reference to ISIS as a comparison to Saudi because that would be an insult and fabrication of facts

It does articulate the rift and pressures around the USA and Saudi relationship but if you read some of the reasons it makes sense why the USA has had to distance itself from Saudi. For example the Saudi " only " expected

The USA to support Mubarak when he was overthrown by most of Egypt during the Arab Spring. So lets get this straight the Saudi's wanted the USA to now directly intervene in a Democrat movement broadly supported by most of the country to put back in power a dictator...yes I know he was aligned with the USA during the Cold War but this was the past. The USA didn't say to him " become a dictator" ...this highlights how little the Saudi's understand by the concept of Democracy
The USA should have removed Assad !!! What this really would have meant was : again ignoring the UNSC and really angering Russia and China...once again the Saudi have no idea of the importance of the USA not been seen to ignoring the UNSC
The USA should have attacked Iran : What this really meant : The USA going to war again against a real military threat. Of course the USA would have won but at the cost of Iran now really hating the West and using its influence to really destabilize the region

So in fact the so called " USA\Saudi " alliance is really about the USA starting 3 more wars.....I'm sorry but I can completely understand the USA and Obamas reticence. In fact it is painfully obvious that the Saudis and the USA aren't on the same page anymore and I support the USA is this

Fighter · October 31, 2015

Where in Russia do you live and how come is your English so good ?

What does the average Russian think the West wants from Russia? Do they see the West as some sort of bully

How do you feel about China

What do you understand about the sanctions, do you feel they are unfair and are you feeling there impact?

Why do you think Putin felt the need to absorb Crimea and basically try to absorb eastern Ukraine....why doesn't he trust the West?

- I would rather not go into personal details. I went to a foreign school for some years, that's how I know English. I'll leave it at that.

- There is no agreement amongst Russians as to "what the west wants from us" exactly. But generally it varies around, "They want to set up a puppet government so they can control us and our resources" or "They want to destroy Russia by breaking it into multiple states".

- The way I feel about China is that it's one of biggest threats to Russia. They have designs on the far eastern parts of Russia which they consider theirs historically or something. They also have a huge population and less land. Russia has more land per person than any other country in the world or we're way up the list (maybe Greenland or some such place has more). It's a natural progression from here.

- I think by far the biggest accomplishments of sanctions is further increasing the animosity Russians hold for the west.

- Crimea is historically Russian (well a Russian conquest anyway if you we go further back). It was given to Ukraine during Soviet times but then we all were the Soviet Union together. The loss of Crimea during the breakup of USSR which then truly became Ukrainian is one of the most painfully felt territorial losses. It is the base of the Black Sea fleet. And all those things are very dear to most Russians.

During the entire time of Ukrainian independence their government made numerous attempts to "Ukrainize" Crimea and other eastern territories. By clumsy language laws and propaganda. They also introduced elements of direct rule from Kiev by abolishing some elections (I can't remember which but I think the post of governor amongst them). Out of fear that pro-Russian forces would win and push for separation. All this bred feelings amongst Russians in Russia that there is rusophobia in Ukraine and we need to stand up for Russians there and Russian culture that was under assault.

Numerous times there was a push to expel the Russian fleet out of Crimea with varying degree of seriousness over the years. Or to get Russia to pay bigger and bigger sum of money for the Black Sea fleet base. The fear was, and I would guess correctly so, that with a more nationalistic government in Kiev they would finally go for it.

Also that a NATO base may eventually come (which Ukrainian nationalist do want there if for nothing else out of spite) to the historic base of the Black Sea fleet, to Crimea with its long and colorful Russian military history. There is no limit to the rage and humiliation this would cause.

As for Ukraine in general. It is of vital importance for Putin to destroy them and make an example out of them. And he successfully did wreck them for a very long time. Because successful reforms in Ukraine would have enormous influence in Russia which mean he will start losing power. Also I simply think it's personal for him. He feels kinship with another crook and authoritarian like himself be kicked out of office. I think he feels the same way about Assad in Syria.

HoonDing · October 31, 2015

Never heard about China being after Russian territory. Japan, on the other hand...

Volourn · October 31, 2015

Anyone who defends Saudi Arabia should really rethink their morals. They may be an 'ally' of the West but they are as morally corrupt as Iran, NK, etc.

EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.

Malcador · October 31, 2015

Russian plane crashed over Egypt, ISIS is claiming responsibility apparently, but no one is really that convinced.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/oct/31/russian-passenger-plane-crashes-in-egypts-sinai-live

BruceVC · October 31, 2015

Where in Russia do you live and how come is your English so good ?

What does the average Russian think the West wants from Russia? Do they see the West as some sort of bully

How do you feel about China

What do you understand about the sanctions, do you feel they are unfair and are you feeling there impact?

Why do you think Putin felt the need to absorb Crimea and basically try to absorb eastern Ukraine....why doesn't he trust the West?

- I would rather not go into personal details. I went to a foreign school for some years, that's how I know English. I'll leave it at that.

- There is no agreement amongst Russians as to "what the west wants from us" exactly. But generally it varies around, "They want to set up a puppet government so they can control us and our resources" or "They want to destroy Russia by breaking it into multiple states".

- The way I feel about China is that it's one of biggest threats to Russia. They have designs on the far eastern parts of Russia which they consider theirs historically or something. They also have a huge population and less land. Russia has more land per person than any other country in the world or we're way up the list (maybe Greenland or some such place has more). It's a natural progression from here.

- I think by far the biggest accomplishments of sanctions is further increasing the animosity Russians hold for the west.

- Crimea is historically Russian (well a Russian conquest anyway if you we go further back). It was given to Ukraine during Soviet times but then we all were the Soviet Union together. The loss of Crimea during the breakup of USSR which then truly became Ukrainian is one of the most painfully felt territorial losses. It is the base of the Black Sea fleet. And all those things are very dear to most Russians.

During the entire time of Ukrainian independence their government made numerous attempts to "Ukrainize" Crimea and other eastern territories. By clumsy language laws and propaganda. They also introduced elements of direct rule from Kiev by abolishing some elections (I can't remember which but I think the post of governor amongst them). Out of fear that pro-Russian forces would win and push for separation. All this bred feelings amongst Russians in Russia that there is rusophobia in Ukraine and we need to stand up for Russians there and Russian culture that was under assault.

Numerous times there was a push to expel the Russian fleet out of Crimea with varying degree of seriousness over the years. Or to get Russia to pay bigger and bigger sum of money for the Black Sea fleet base. The fear was, and I would guess correctly so, that with a more nationalistic government in Kiev they would finally go for it.

Also that a NATO base may eventually come (which Ukrainian nationalist do want there if for nothing else out of spite) to the historic base of the Black Sea fleet, to Crimea with its long and colorful Russian military history. There is no limit to the rage and humiliation this would cause.

As for Ukraine in general. It is of vital importance for Putin to destroy them and make an example out of them. And he successfully did wreck them for a very long time. Because successful reforms in Ukraine would have enormous influence in Russia which mean he will start losing power. Also I simply think it's personal for him. He feels kinship with another crook and authoritarian like himself be kicked out of office. I think he feels the same way about Assad in Syria.

Thanks for the detailed response, I dont know many Russians who I could ask and I wanted a real and personal view

Appreciate the effort

Anyone who defends Saudi Arabia should really rethink their morals. They may be an 'ally' of the West but they are as morally corrupt as Iran, NK, etc.

EVIL. EVIL TO THE CORE.

Okay but you do realize I wasn't defending Saudi Arabia, I was just explaining why they are an ally to the USA

Darkpriest · October 31, 2015

Russian plane crashed over Egypt, ISIS is claiming responsibility apparently, but no one is really that convinced.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/oct/31/russian-passenger-plane-crashes-in-egypts-sinai-live

Not convinced. Shooting down is definitely out of question unless they got specialized surface to air missile systems, which would mean that Sauds or USA delivered them to rebels. I doubt that any of that happened.

The only way it would be possible is that they somehow planted some explosive on the plane. Also highly unlikely.

There were comms from the flight captain that the demanded landing priority on the nearest airport, which hints that it was some technical issue and the crew knew about the incoming danger. What exactly happened is tough to determine until the investigation is completed, but surface to air missile strike on a target 9,5km attitude... not possible by regular ISIS.

Meshugger · October 31, 2015

The Saudis are tolerated and celebrated by the realpolitikers and the useful idiots because they are bought and therefore follow the current agenda of a global world. That's why the other guys like Putin are hated, and not because for that they care little about the freedoms of their people.

Take your friend Bruce for example, how unlikely is it that your family or extended connections have financial interest in Saudi businesses?

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West

But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking?

It's good that you come forward and admit your intensions instead of trying to have a moral authority on the matter. I suggest talking to priest for some further soul-searcihng.

Dude what is confusing you? My point about Saudi Arabia I would have thought by now is clear. I dont like there culture or like the many areas they lack in SJ....but this would not be enough for me to not go there for work or to accept they are an ally of the West

And I have no issues with people in trading in Saudi commodities...but I admit there campaign to undermine the USA shale corporations has caused some serious financial woes. One of my cousins good friends works for a Western Saudi oil trading company and was based in Saudi. He use to love it, he was good friends with someone who knew one of the royal princes and the Saudi's took a real liking to him because he was good, he really knew the oil market. Anyway he never believed the Saudis would last this long, they are really impacting there economy now by keeping oil production low. This guy I know has been basically made redundant because there isn't much work now for people like him Saudi

Oh please, we all know that you try to claim a moral authority on the west because it serves your interests. That's what i am talking about. Trying to drag along Elerond with a ruse is another sniveling tactic which is quite frankly, of grade school level. He atleast gets how the game is played, and like the very spirit of Paasikivi renowned, he's diplomatic, realistic and does not pass judgement with stupid jokes.

Zoraptor · November 1, 2015

Russian plane crashed over Egypt, ISIS is claiming responsibility apparently, but no one is really that convinced.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/oct/31/russian-passenger-plane-crashes-in-egypts-sinai-live

Not convinced. Shooting down is definitely out of question unless they got specialized surface to air missile systems, which would mean that Sauds or USA delivered them to rebels. I doubt that any of that happened.

The Saudis or US would not be arming rebels in Egypt. There were rumours that the ISIS chapter in Egypt may have got hold of a high altitude capable SAM via capture off the Egyptian army, but I don't think anyone seriously believes it given that the whole rebel force in Syria has captured one functional non manpad SAM system despite being far more organised and having captured far more equipment and territory. On the other hand, an airliner that had to reduce altitude due to cabin pressure loss or similar would be in the danger zone for man portable air SAMs which it is very credible that they would have a limited number of.

Overall though it is highly unlikely to be a SAM even given that, and I think 'Sinai State' have actually denied it as well.

BruceVC · November 1, 2015

The Saudis are tolerated and celebrated by the realpolitikers and the useful idiots because they are bought and therefore follow the current agenda of a global world. That's why the other guys like Putin are hated, and not because for that they care little about the freedoms of their people.

Take your friend Bruce for example, how unlikely is it that your family or extended connections have financial interest in Saudi businesses?

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West

But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking?

It's good that you come forward and admit your intensions instead of trying to have a moral authority on the matter. I suggest talking to priest for some further soul-searcihng.

Dude what is confusing you? My point about Saudi Arabia I would have thought by now is clear. I dont like there culture or like the many areas they lack in SJ....but this would not be enough for me to not go there for work or to accept they are an ally of the West

And I have no issues with people in trading in Saudi commodities...but I admit there campaign to undermine the USA shale corporations has caused some serious financial woes. One of my cousins good friends works for a Western Saudi oil trading company and was based in Saudi. He use to love it, he was good friends with someone who knew one of the royal princes and the Saudi's took a real liking to him because he was good, he really knew the oil market. Anyway he never believed the Saudis would last this long, they are really impacting there economy now by keeping oil production low. This guy I know has been basically made redundant because there isn't much work now for people like him Saudi

Oh please, we all know that you try to claim a moral authority on the west because it serves your interests. That's what i am talking about. Trying to drag along Elerond with a ruse is another sniveling tactic which is quite frankly, of grade school level. He atleast gets how the game is played, and like the very spirit of Paasikivi renowned, he's diplomatic, realistic and does not pass judgement with stupid jokes.

Meshugger, yes I'm glad I hit a nerve. You should be feeling guilty for exactly the reasons you are trying to ignore...a fellow Finn gets what you refuse to understand

I thought you would listen to him because he is very candid....oh well I tried ...and I thought the joke was quite good, the thought of you listen to your Finnish friend, I'm funny hey :biggrin:

Edited November 1, 2015 by BruceVC

Varana · November 1, 2015

Never heard about China being after Russian territory. Japan, on the other hand...

If someone in China wanted, they could probably whip up some claims about "Outer Manchuria" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur_Acquisition).

The actual border disputes (some minor river islands, which even escalated into an armed conflict in 1969) appear to have been settled, though, and currently there seem to be no official Chinese claims.

Which doesn't exclude that someone said something, at some point, though, providing material for a bit of nationalistic posturing when needed.

Meshugger · November 1, 2015

The Saudis are tolerated and celebrated by the realpolitikers and the useful idiots because they are bought and therefore follow the current agenda of a global world. That's why the other guys like Putin are hated, and not because for that they care little about the freedoms of their people.

Take your friend Bruce for example, how unlikely is it that your family or extended connections have financial interest in Saudi businesses?

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West

But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking?

It's good that you come forward and admit your intensions instead of trying to have a moral authority on the matter. I suggest talking to priest for some further soul-searcihng.

Dude what is confusing you? My point about Saudi Arabia I would have thought by now is clear. I dont like there culture or like the many areas they lack in SJ....but this would not be enough for me to not go there for work or to accept they are an ally of the West

And I have no issues with people in trading in Saudi commodities...but I admit there campaign to undermine the USA shale corporations has caused some serious financial woes. One of my cousins good friends works for a Western Saudi oil trading company and was based in Saudi. He use to love it, he was good friends with someone who knew one of the royal princes and the Saudi's took a real liking to him because he was good, he really knew the oil market. Anyway he never believed the Saudis would last this long, they are really impacting there economy now by keeping oil production low. This guy I know has been basically made redundant because there isn't much work now for people like him Saudi

Oh please, we all know that you try to claim a moral authority on the west because it serves your interests. That's what i am talking about. Trying to drag along Elerond with a ruse is another sniveling tactic which is quite frankly, of grade school level. He atleast gets how the game is played, and like the very spirit of Paasikivi renowned, he's diplomatic, realistic and does not pass judgement with stupid jokes.

Meshugger, yes I'm glad I hit a nerve. You should be feeling guilty for exactly the reasons you are trying to ignore...a fellow Finn gets what you refuse to understand

I thought you would listen to him because he is very candid....oh well I tried ...and I thought the joke was quite good, the thought of you listen to your Finnish friend, I'm funny hey

Still sniveling away are we? Again, everyone knows that the Saudis are "allies" out of geopolitical reasons. Without the oil, they would have the same significance as the Vatican in the real world of Risk and here we are, you admitting to ****posting when called out on your rationale on supporting the Saudis as being quite dubious.

I would really recommend seeing a priest. They know how to forgive you.

Meanwhile, the crisis keep on brewing: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/10/28/gun-sales-surge-in-austria-amid-refugee-crisis/

The current refugee wave in Europe

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