The current refugee wave in Europe

[Volourn]

"Ah, very edgy, bagging on a 1300 year old religious icon.  Let's throw in some carpenter jokes as well.  "

\

Nothing edgier than 'religious icons' who like to rape and marry little girls.

[Woldan]

Dark and cold, awesome music, sounds like my kind of place.

I'd go one step further and go with Iceland. Now thats my kind of place.

[213374U]

One shouldn't put too much stock in the theory that Islam is just Christianity offset by 500 years, and will naturally take the same path. (i.e. the "boys will be boys" attitude towards Islam which is popular among the political left in the West.)

 

Instead, the West should should take Islam seriously for what it is now, and do more to support secularists and civil rights activists in the Muslim world so they can make a stand against the fundamentalists.

 

It's not very sensible to believe that Islam -or any other religion- is Christianity and will "naturally" follow the same path. Not because Christianity is something special, a religion of peace at its core (lol) or whatever, but because the secular societies we live in today are the product of a myriad historical factors that allowed and resulted in the people wresting power from the Church. That outcome wasn't guaranteed and could have been different.

 

A religion that is used as a basis for political power becomes inextricable from the power structures it legitimizes, and therefore can only be "reformed" after those power structures are torn down — by force. The Thirty Years War and the French Revolutionary Wars (and the Napoleonic wars that followed) make the current unrest in the Islamic world look like a hiccup. Personally, I'd like to imagine that there is another path to secularization than centuries of bloodbaths. I'd like to think that other peoples can benefit from the lessons learned from these horrific experiences.

 

Also: reminder that, until the first decades of the 19th century, the Spanish Inquisition was alive and well. The matter of its dissolution and the rest of the liberal reforms that accompanied it were only ultimately settled, naturally, after reactionaries launched a war to roll back all changes.

 

edit: oops Zoraptor basically made the same point already. Ninja'd et al...

Edited September 22, 2015 by 213374U

[Meshugger]

One step closer to war, the migrant quota system has been approved by a majority vote by the EU prime ministers: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34329825

 

This practically means that that the sovereignity of a single state depends on the permissions of others, this is big, big.

 

 

Meanwhile, Le Pen is about to face trial for wrongthink: 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34324335

 

Finally, just to show what a world we live in, the following has happened:

 

 

Let this sink in fellas, the anarchists of yesterday who sprayed grafitti on public walls are now the oppressors. Counter-culture is effectively being a square patriot. Reality really mimics the greek tragedies.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Meshugger

[Barothmuk]

Let this sink in fellas, the anarchists of yesterday who sprayed grafitti on public walls are now the oppressors. Counter-culture is effectively being a square patriot. Reality really mimics the greek tragedies.

Lol your posts are starting to sound like those copy-pasted nazi quotes in youtube comments sections.

 

"Anti-racism is code for anti-white" and so on.

 

Edit: Lol the quote is actually in the video. That's pretty funny. Anyways what a ****ed a mural (both times). How about "French women don't belong to anybody". "French women for themselves". Some **** like that.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Barothmuk

[Meshugger]

 

Let this sink in fellas, the anarchists of yesterday who sprayed grafitti on public walls are now the oppressors. Counter-culture is effectively being a square patriot. Reality really mimics the greek tragedies.

Lol your posts are starting to sound like those copy-pasted nazi quotes in youtube comments sections.

 

"Anti-racism is code for anti-white" and so on.

 

Edit: Lol the quote is actually in the video. That's pretty funny. Anyways what a ****ed a mural (both times). How about "French women don't belong to anybody". "French women for themselves". Some **** like that.

 

 

lol

[213374U]

Meanwhile, Le Pen is about to face trial for wrongthink: 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34324335

 

Finally, just to show what a world we live in, the following has happened:

 

[vid]

 

Let this sink in fellas, the anarchists of yesterday who sprayed grafitti on public walls are now the oppressors. Counter-culture is effectively being a square patriot. Reality really mimics the greek tragedies.

 

If the PMs agreed to it, then their electors can kick them out of office if it really means the countryside is going to be ravaged by bands of marauding Muslims and <doom/gloom>. Won't happen though, in part because the people dgaf (cf. Greece legislative election Sept. 2015) but mostly because it's not such a big deal.

 

As for the video, I don't see how you can be impressed. She's a demagogue, as we both know that what she actually means is "French women for the magical 10-15% of hot French men", right? Joking aside, I can't be certain that he's not actually laughing at both the original retard Mayor who commissioned that (you can always find a Spaniard at the vanguard of imbecility) and the vandal "square patriot". Doesn't look like the guy is interested in deep social commentary beyond teh lulz. I only watched his "Planet Fitness and Transgender Women" vid, though. You may have been had...

 

Marine Le Pen's case is bull****, I'll give you that.

[HoonDing]

Everything will work out fine.

 

[Meshugger]

 

Meanwhile, Le Pen is about to face trial for wrongthink: 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34324335

 

Finally, just to show what a world we live in, the following has happened:

 

[vid]

 

Let this sink in fellas, the anarchists of yesterday who sprayed grafitti on public walls are now the oppressors. Counter-culture is effectively being a square patriot. Reality really mimics the greek tragedies.

 

As for the video, I don't see how you can be impressed. She's a demagogue, as we both know that what she actually means is "French women for the magical 10-15% of hot French men", right?

 

lel, i have to give you that.

[Meshugger]

[Elerond]

 

Welcome to Europe

[BruceVC]

Ah, very edgy, bagging on a 1300 year old religious icon.  Let's throw in some carpenter jokes as well.   

 

I respect the way you will make a point on principle based on what you have experienced , even if that is not what most people are saying. For example I know you have spent time understanding and meeting your local Muslim community and your opinion of Muslims is absolutely reasonable and fair. I don't think anyone is suggesting that all Muslims have the same views but Ineth also makes some good points ...I just don't think he is going about making his point in the right way....I'll touch on that now because we should be able to discuss this without being seen as Islamophobic 

 

I would say though that if you reworded 'violent warlord' to use more favourable or neutral language most muslims would agree with that being a significant element of Muhammed because he was a (righteous, to their view) conqueror both historically and in the Koran. I'd make the distinction between those who see that violence and conquest as being, essentially, the end point and intrinsic to being a muslim and the vast majority who see it as being a means to an end under specific circumstances and not intrinsic except in those specific circumstances. The latter is, of course, both the majority view and also indistinguishable from the vast majority of those following even theoretically pacifist religions like buddhism or christianity or any other philosophy for that matter; everyone is perfectly willing to use violence for their ends under the right circumstances whether they be muslim or whatever.

 

Yeah but in some religions, the violent fundamentalists can easily convince (especially young) believers that their way is indeed a "going back to the fundamentals!" by pointing at the example set by the religion's founder, whereas in other religions/philosophies they have to come up with auxiliary justifications.

 

 

Ah, very edgy, bagging on a 1300 year old religious icon.  Let's throw in some carpenter jokes as well.   

 

Isn't it commonly accepted now that "carpenter" was a mistranslation by Martin Luther, and that Jesus - if he existed - was most likely a stone quarry worker? (Considering a stone quarry apparently existed near where he grew up, and would fit the Greek word used to describe his day job). At least that's what I read in a 'popular history' article in an atheist magazine...

 

Not that "stone quarry worker" wouldn't lend itself to jokes too, mind you...

 

@ Ineth 

 

I think you raise some good points but can I make a suggestion? I have had this discussion many times where people want to raise a valid criticism or concern around areas in the Muslim world and they use the history of Islam to support that view

 

But even if there   historical reference is accurate you can see its never really accepted because its easy to find similar comparisons around Christianity or Western culture. Also there are many European countries that have thriving Muslim communities so its not nice to hear someone say, or think they are saying,  something about Islam and use historical context to justify it

 

I want to raise my concern with parts of the ME and Muslim countries. Now just to clarify something, we use to have a branch in the UAE and from that branch our company use to do work throughout the ME....but not all countries. Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iran, Qatar, Bahrain  and Jordan. Like most Western companies we use the UAE as our home base as its the most progressive and stable. The only reason I am mentioning this is because I want it to be clear I have worked in the ME and I have experienced the culture 

 

So I am a liberal and I take SJ seriously and the ME is basically very conservative with different degrees of how they implement there religious laws. Now as a foreigner I had to respect there laws and not complain....and I can promise you many things appalled me. Like there views on Homophobia ....its really considered anathema and its the death penalty in some countries

 

They always treated us well as white, male expats in any country we went to but that was not enough for me as its obvious if you look hard enough to see the blatant discrimination at how other minority groups are treated. For example we use to do training on various software products and people would come from around the ME to attend the training course. One of our most talented consultants and trainers is a women and in the beginning when we got the contracts she would do the training...and I'll  never forget her frantically calling our office to  please get someone  to go  the training room on day 1 as she couldn't continue the training as none of the men would talk to her...not one. Its was annoying and insulting so we had then get someone else to run the course 

 

Then another example is we took one of our  main customers which is a very successful private bank to a conference in Saudi. We were all standing at the entrance line at Riyadh airport with the customer and the CTO of this bank was a South African Indian. The Saudi airport security came and pulled him out our line, white people have there own line at the airport, and wanted him to stand in the line with the uneducated cheap migrant laborers that countries like Saudi bring in to do all the manual work..so this applies to Pakistanis, Indians and Afghanistan citizens. It was very embarrassing because this guy had 3 degrees and was highly educated but the Saudis couldn't tell the difference and just saw him as an " Indian laborer" 

 

I can give many more examples but I think my point should be clear ...now some expats are fine with this or don't seem to notice it but it bothered me immensely. But my view was " I can't change this type of thing so if these countries  are able to function like this I have enough concerns in my own country ". I also thought social changes take time

 

But recent events around the Arab Spring and other areas of disturbances in the ME, like the working conditions of laborers in Qatar working on the world cup,  have clearly demonstrated that this system is definitely not working and various groups are unhappy on a  number of levels

 

Which brings me to my point...the outcome of the Syrian conflict has lead to the West and the EU having to now adsorb hundreds of thousands of people. And the reality is if the ME actually showed more responsibility and concern for fellow Muslims this wouldn't be happening. And its because they don't really care about basic human rights unless its there own citizens or countries they are aligned to

 

Now you may not see the connection...but I can promise you if countries like Saudi Arabia or the UAE treated there laborers fairly they would happily take in the Syrians. But they don't care because they are use to doing what they want and no one really challengers them as until recently it made more sense to be a  non-critical ally of a place like Saudi Arabia than to try to push things like gay rights or enforce a system where they don't abuse there migrant laborers

 

So now what ....we have friction in the EU because countries like Germany think they doing the right thing by letting the refugees in and places like Hungary who are patently unable to manage the amount of Muslims coming in and think " they defending Christendom " ...but Hungary is just making the situation more untenable and actually adding to the overall chaos

 

So in summary, the ME needs to start really seeing itself as a real Arab community and taking responsibility for its own Arab citizens . They meet in the Arab League and discuss matter relevant to the area but it seems just like the African Union when it comes to making meaningful commitments they lack the will or political interest

 

I'm not  saying they need to become more " Westernized " but they need to stop paying lip service to all these Unions that countries belong to and realize these Unions are not just about monthly meetings where the rulers meet to discuss how important there sovereignty is  and how they resent " Western interference " yet they cant even agree or commit resources to fixing there own regional problems 

 

I'm tired of making excuses for groups like the AU and the Arab League and how ineffective they are when it comes to good governance and how  this lack of effectiveness ultimately negatively impacts there own citizens. So whats the point of even having these organisations who claim to represent the aspirations of the region?

[Meshugger]

The only type of Islam that can work in a western society is Sufism, since it reflects on inner and esoteric paths to God. Everything else is just different degrees of worshipping the antics of a warlord who ordered executions and had multiple wives of very questionable age. Not exactly a guy of great virtue.

 

But that's for another thread to discuss.

[BruceVC]

The only type of Islam that can work in a western society is Sufism, since it reflects on inner and esoteric paths to God. Everything else is just different degrees of worshipping the antics of a warlord who ordered executions and had multiple wives of very questionable age. Not exactly a guy of great virtue.

 

But that's for another thread to discuss.

This is the perfect time to discuss it, I dont want to keep bringing this up

 

You see I refuse to believe what you saying because I believe if people want to live in Western countries then they can adopt....if you look at the Muslim community in the USA they have adopted very well. Ask Hurlshot 

 

But the European integration hasn't gone that well....I'm not sure what all the reasons are. I know some, like the French Algerians and the resentment 

 

But lets take the UK....its done as well as any country to be inclusive yet you still have these reprehensible clergy preachers literally verbally attacking the country....its a disgrace

 

So how is it working in the USA? I can hazard a guess..in the USA they are more stricter about the integration criteria and you feel its a big deal to actually get in? Maybe the EU is accepting so its not appreciated? 

[Ineth]

This practically means that that the sovereignity of a single state depends on the permissions of others, this is big, big.

 

Isn't this what the EU has always been about?

 

They had a good thing going with the EEC (straight-forward free trade agreement). Opening borders to allow freedom of movement for citizens between European countries could have been achieved with a similar treaty.

 

But instead, they established the EU as a political union - and (unlike the US) one without proper democratic processes to guarantee representation, and without a constitution to guarantee liberty.

 

...What could possibly go wrong?

[Meshugger]

 

This practically means that that the sovereignity of a single state depends on the permissions of others, this is big, big.

 

Isn't this what the EU has always been about?

 

They had a good thing going with the EEC (straight-forward free trade agreement). Opening borders to allow freedom of movement for citizens between European countries could have been achieved with a similar treaty.

 

But instead, they established the EU as a political union - and (unlike the US) one without proper democratic processes to guarantee representation, and without a constitution to guarantee liberty.

 

...What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

Decisions like these are usually the result of unanimous decisions between the states. But judging by my Facebook-feed, people are more appaled by what they percieve as hateful opinions by people they thought are their friends. It's mezmering to witness how internet-friendships fall apart like that.

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, I certainly don't see how you could look at the Greece crises and have any sort of surprise about countries' sovereignty being trumped by the EU. Albeit that wasn't the full EU but then neither is this decision either. Really I don't see how you could look at the EU at all and be surprised that this is the end point.

 

If it weren't other countries being forced to bear the consequences it would be pretty hilarious how quickly Merkel about faced from her idiotic open invitation; and it is always ironic to see Germany bailing themselves out of their own stupidity with not a hint of embarrassment but claims of moral superiority and claiming European Solidarity. It's privatise the profits/ nationalise the debts just with Germany instead of a bank. Congrats, euroweenies, your future is the German Chancellor stomping on your face- forever.

 

Though perhaps an Animal Farm quote would be more appropriate, after all some countries are more equal in the EU than others, though ironically in that case not the PIGS.

[BruceVC]

Yeah, I certainly don't see how you could look at the Greece crises and have any sort of surprise about countries' sovereignty being trumped by the EU. Albeit that wasn't the full EU but then neither is this decision either. Really I don't see how you could look at the EU at all and be surprised that this is the end point.

 

If it weren't other countries being forced to bear the consequences it would be pretty hilarious how quickly Merkel about faced from her idiotic open invitation; and it is always ironic to see Germany bailing themselves out of their own stupidity with not a hint of embarrassment but claims of moral superiority and claiming European Solidarity. It's privatise the profits/ nationalise the debts just with Germany instead of a bank. Congrats, euroweenies, your future is the German Chancellor stomping on your face- forever.

 

Though perhaps an Animal Farm quote would be more appropriate, after all some countries are more equal in the EU than others, though ironically in that case not the PIGS.

Meshugger and others please ignore this, Zora is trying to bait you and think less of the EU. The reality is Greece has no one to blame but themselves so lets not even bring Greece into this 

 

He is deliberately embellishing the " negative " decisions of Germany because he is anti-Western and he likes to undermine the West

 

I have no issue with people being anti-Western, they just need to be honest about it. I can understand some of the criticism but end of the day this whole Syrian refugee crisis is more a knee jerk reaction based on the principle than the fact that somehow 2 million Syrians are going to undermine the EU. And the media is not helping things when they say things like  "this is the greatest crisis the EU is facing " 

 

And finally I know you guys don't need me to tell you is who sincere about there concern on these forums about the EU....but trust me Zora would be quite happy if the whole EU failed. And I assume you don't want the EU to fail ?

Edited September 24, 2015 by BruceVC

[Drowsy Emperor]

Ah, very edgy, bagging on a 1300 year old religious icon.  Let's throw in some carpenter jokes as well.   

 

Not all religious icons are equal. Mohammed's life is much better known and he was a warlord in his time. Much of what ISIS is doing, is exactly what Mohammad was doing in his time - including decapitations, destruction of anything "pagan" etc. 

 

Liberals need to outgrow the childish manner of treating all religions as the same thing as a way of taking the moral high ground. Most religious texts are open ended and can be interpreted in many different ways, but the Quran, and Islam in general is an extremely militant religion, has been since its creation. It was stopped by endless wars at the gates of Europe, and the downfall of its empires - not because anything about it changed, or because it was internally pushed aside by new ideologies like Christianity in Europe.

 

Europeans may like to think they've outgrown religion, but muslims don't and treat that very idea as an insult. The only thing worse to a muslim believer than a Christian is an atheist and there is no way any of them can, in good conscience, like that sort of liberal, sex drenched,"gay rights" pride parade society. I'm not even much of a believer and I don't like where Europe is heading, so I can only imagine what they think.

 

This leads to the creation of a parallel society where the entire immigrant class socializes internally and is closed off to the rest of the society and vice versa. When they're a few hundred thousand in a society of millions, you can say that's irrelevent, but when there are millions of them living an entirely separate existence it doesn't take a genius to see that that can't lead anywhere good.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

 

Ah, very edgy, bagging on a 1300 year old religious icon.  Let's throw in some carpenter jokes as well.   

 

Not all religious icons are equal. Mohammed's life is much better known and he was a warlord in his time. Much of what ISIS is doing, is exactly what Mohammad was doing in his time - including decapitations, destruction of anything "pagan" etc. 

 

Liberals need to outgrow the childish manner of treating all religions as the same thing as a way of taking the moral high ground. Most religious texts are open ended and can be interpreted in many different ways, but the Quran, and Islam in general is an extremely militant religion, has been since its creation. It was stopped by endless wars at the gates of Europe, and the downfall of its empires - not because anything about it changed, or because it was internally pushed aside by new ideologies like Christianity in Europe.

 

Europeans may like to think they've outgrown religion, but muslims don't and treat that very idea as an insult. The only thing worse to a muslim believer than a Christian is an atheist and there is no way any of them can, in good conscience, like that sort of liberal, sex drenched,"gay rights" pride parade society. I'm not even much of a believer and I don't like where Europe is heading, so I can only imagine what they think.

 

This leads to the creation of a parallel society where the entire immigrant class socializes internally and is closed off to the rest of the society and vice versa. When they're a few hundred thousand in a society of millions, you can say that's irrelevent, but when there are millions of them living an entirely separate existence it doesn't take a genius to see that that can't lead anywhere good.

 

You know  whats funny Drowsy, its not often I say this but this type of ostensibly "anti-Muslim " view is important 

 

And I tell you why its important  countries like Serbia  do need to keep bringing this up ....because most EU countries wont say this type of thing because they see this as not politically correct. So I do feel what Serbia and Hungary are doing has its place as lets be honest the Muslim world doesn't think much of your people if you look historically at how the Ottomans conquered you guys 

 

And yes Muslims take the Koran literally, but for me the worst thing for your average Muslim really depends on where you live 

 

In South Africa the Muslims particularly dislike the Jews\Israelis and someone like an apostate who criticizes there religion

 

But you have to realize the Muslims in America are not like the Muslims you have experience with ...so Hurlshot will have a very different view and it is valid as many Muslim Americans try very hard to integrate 

 

And finally there is NO chance that somehow the EU will be surreptitiously taken over by Muslims. The reality is the EU culture is superior in almost every way to your average ME country....people would be going backwards if they started becoming like the ME and that is not going to happen

 

But its good you raise this concern..I wouldn't have said something like this but people are worried about this

[Woldan]

A popular newspaper in my country supposedly got their hands on an official document signed by all of the various police branches and sent to the ministry of the interior, saying they can no longer guarantee internal security of the country due to complete chaos created by incoming waves of refugees and the crime spree that is following. The rest of the ''report'' looks pretty worrying as well.

 

Of course, one has to doubt what newspapers print but it would not surprise me at all if it was true.

 

Well, sh!t gets real now.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Woldan

[BruceVC]

A popular newspaper in my country supposedly got their hands on an official document signed by all of the various police branches and sent to the ministry of the interior, saying they can no longer guarantee internal security of the country due to complete chaos created by incoming waves of refugees and the crime spree that is following. The rest of the ''report'' looks pretty worrying as well.

 

Of course, one has to doubt what newspapers print but it would not surprise me at all if it was true.

 

Well, sh!t gets real now.

Woldan I am sorry for not asking you this earlier but what is your view on these Syrians ...please be honest as I have no idea what your average Austrian mountain man  thinks?

Edited September 24, 2015 by BruceVC

[Woldan]

The average Austrian is dangerously pissed off, and this is one of the rare cases where I can speak for a lot of people. No one hates them refugees and nobody ''wants them to go back where they came from'' because everyone realizes that their home is bombed to hell which is a real tragedy, but everyone agrees on that one should not sacrifice himself to help others which is clearly the case now.

As for a solution, I have none.

But first and foremost the duty of the government is to protect its CITIZEN, and this is clearly not the case now. We need to close the borders right now and think of a solution, just letting everybody in is utter madness.

Unfortunately the military and the police have been stripped from a lot of ressources due to the bad state of the economy, for some reason the government has decided its best to cut corners in those branches that provide security because they thought momma EU is going to help us if we need protection and armed forces. I doubt we even have near the manpower and equipment required to handle an effective border control.

Heck, our police forces are so occupied with the futile attempt to protect the borders they can no longer fight regular crime.

And of course our medical care system is already on its knees, it certainly won't survive this.

 

Now speaking for myself, I think the foundation for war is being built, civil unrest, a torn society, religious clashes, a dwindling economy, a government that does the exact opposite of what people want all the time and the creation of a sub-culture inside our own that is very different and very unwilling to integrate and learn our ways.

Nothing is missing, its like from a book.

[BruceVC]

The average Austrian is dangerously pissed off, and this is one of the rare cases where I can speak for a lot of people. No one hates them refugees and nobody ''wants them to go back where they came from'' because everyone realizes that their home is bombed to hell which is a real tragedy, but everyone agrees on that one should not sacrifice himself to help others which is clearly the case now.

As for a solution, I have none.

But first and foremost the duty of the government is to protect its CITIZEN, and this is clearly not the case now. We need to close the borders right now and think of a solution, just letting everybody in is utter madness.

Unfortunately the military and the police have been stripped from a lot of ressources due to the bad state of the economy, for some reason the government has decided its best to cut corners in those branches that provide security because they thought momma EU is going to help us if we need protection and armed forces. I doubt we even have near the manpower and equipment required to handle an effective border control.

Heck, our police forces are so occupied with the futile attempt to protect the borders they can no longer fight regular crim?

And of course our medical care system is already on its knees, it certainly won't survive this.

 

Now speaking for myself, I think the foundation for war is being built, civil unrest, a torn society, religious clashes, a dwindling economy, a government that does the exact opposite of what people want all the time and the creation of a sub-culture inside our own that is very different and very unwilling to integrate and learn our ways.

Nothing is missing, its like from a book.

Thanks for sharing in such detail. I want to get feedback from the average citizen in the EU countries that are going to be taking in Syrians 

 

Stupid question but when you say your concern is a war who exactly would this conflict be between ? The Syrians and Austrians?

[Woldan]

I think I need to clarify something here, many of the refugees are NOT Syrian, I have spoken with several people who are very involved in the current dealings with the refuge crisis and they said only half of the refugees are actually Syrian. The other half that consist of a mix of many different countries in the east have fled because due to economical reasons.

 

Stupid question but when you say your concern is a war who exactly would this conflict be between ? The Syrians and Austrians?

A war against the government that emerges from the chaos of a prolonged period of severe civil unrest and terror attacks. Edited September 24, 2015 by Woldan