The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt [2015]

[licketysplit]

 

Surprised you didn't like the writing in Hearts of Stone. That had some of my favorite moments. Which games do you think W3 cribs from? I see some influences sure, but I wouldn't call it derivative.

The combat system a massive Dark Souls wannabe without actually understanding what made that system tick so well for instance. I don't think there's a single original mechanic in The Witcher 3, even Gwent borrows heavily from Condottiere.

 

 

Hmmm. I'd say W2 borrowed heavily from DS and W3 not much at all. When I play the two they handle completely different and emphasis different mechanics. I also don't see how the skill tree, alchemy, lore, dialog, mission design, leveling system, enemy types, combat styles, etc are so derivative. Some aspects are weak, but claiming it's a clone of other games seems a stretch to me. Being inspired by and outright cribbing are two diffrent things. 

[Nonek]

Which games do you think W3 cribs from? I see some influences sure, but I wouldn't call it derivative.

 

Games the same as any other medium stand on the shoulders of giants in my opinion: For instance the huge open world of the Witcher 3 borrows a lot from classic Ultima in that it is a world that makes sense, and seems eminently liveable, whereas in other open world games every element is just there to facilitate larping. The massive city of Novigrad could be said to borrow from Britain, Vizima, the Gothics or the early Elder Scrolls cities such as featured in Daggerfall, though obviously not the laughable hamlets that are present in later dumbed down iterations. The combat system deviates enough from everything else to be its own things, it is neither Dark Souls, Arkham (thanfully) or Severance (mores the pity.)

 

Heart of Stone is cribbed almost entirely from Polish folklore as you probably know, and there are many other elements they have used that have been used before, this isn't a bad thing, quite the contrary. All that matters really is implementation, and end user experience. For me they should have stuck with some of the more elegant design they pioneered in the first game, instead of catering to the modern crowd, but there you go.

 

Edit: To be honest I think the Wild Hunt could have benefited from removing a lot of handholding measures from the game, just based on my own improved enjoyment when I turned those features off, and adding directions to the gameworld, rather than underestimating their players with quest markers and such. I'm currently enjoying Deus Ex without such insulting measures being necessary and have explored far more old games where such handholding was not necessary, I often wonder why this changed and we now accept such "features."

 

I find it difficult to believe that players found this too hard, it just required a little experimentation and exploration and resulted in far more satisfaction when difficulty was overcome. Of course there are those who needed cheat sheets and walkthroughs, but they are still here, indeed there are players who approach a game with a walkthrough first time spoiling themselves of any enjoyment. Design of course shouldn't be catered around them, and yet it is. I suppose it's just a sign of the times, there is far more handholding and babying in society full stop, and players now feel at home with being led around by the nose. A pity.

 

Edit#2: You know I find an odd pleasure in pouring over my old maps of the Bard's Tale, Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholders, Wizardry, Ultimas etcetera, the graph paper is near falling apart and the pencilled notes fading fast but I pity any player who's never experienced this method of gaming. They're missing something that is far more organic and satisfying.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Nonek

[Fenixp]

Hmmm. I'd say W2 borrowed heavily from DS and W3 not much at all.

There was still quite a lot of it there - then again, Dark Souls borrowed a lot of its mechanics from third person fighter hack and slash whatevers so I suppose W3 got somewhere in between (the combat in W3 is still very deliberate and not button mashy unless you're brutally overlevelled for a given area)

 

I also don't see how the skill tree, alchemy, lore, dialog, mission design, leveling system, enemy types, combat styles, etc are so derivative. Some aspects are weak, but claiming it's a clone of other games seems a stretch to me. Being inspired by and outright cribbing are two diffrent things.

Of course all of those things are massively derivative, but I'm not one to say that's really a bad thing. It's just how the evolution of a media works.

 

I find it difficult to believe that players found this too hard, it just required a little experimentation and exploration and resulted in far more satisfaction when difficulty was overcome.

It's not necessarily that players find this hard, it's also developers. I'll give you a typical example from Morrowind, albeit I'm sure exact wording was quite different:

"Oh hi, I have a mudcrab farm and there are people who want to ruin my mudcrab farm. Oh, want to help? All right, that's grand, you can get to it by going down this road, taking the first left and then, when you hit a fork, go right, straight ahead and you'll get there."

So, after following these instructions as they were given, I ended up on a lone island with a strange cat telling me easter eggs and no mudcrab farm in sight.

 

Construction of the world itself is a process which constantly evolves throughout the game's development and the moment, say, a road is moved or otherwise changed around, writers need to accommodate for this change and, often enough, quest designers need to do so as well - god forbid that dialogue already having voice acting done too. This kind of stuff has gotten even exponentially more difficult now that more people are involved in creating a game. So, the easy way out? Quest markers! Just tell the game "Step X of quest Y points to NPC Z" and the game can then systematically navigate player towards the next objective and all NPC has to do for the quest to sort of make sense is to give you vague directions, like "On top of a roof" or "In the town of ... ."

 

Thankfully, designers seem to be slowly realizing just how incredibly regressive designing a game around quest markers is, and they seem to be increasingly willing to either invest into proper communication channels and productions processes for their games so that this aspect can be avoided and made altogether optional. Sadly, with vague directions given by NPCs in Witcher 3, some quests were figuratively unfinishable. I do hope we'll go full circle eventually and open world games finally figure out a non-obtrusive, systematic way of giving us directions. I mean, it's not like bloody Outcast solved that issue 17 years ago in an extremely elegant and immersive fashion or anything *grumble grumble*

Edited September 3, 2016 by Fenixp

[sorophx]

Which games do you think W3 cribs from? I see some influences sure, but I wouldn't call it derivative. 

 

if I were to name only one game W3 reminds me the most of, I'd say: Two Worlds II. in essence, W3 looks like a spiritual successor to TWII: the way the open world is designed, with all these caves and POI; the whole exploration aspect of it, random encounters with bandits and wildlife, swimming, horseback riding (feels almost exactly the same, so does crafting); the way the character talks even (whenever Geralt threw a line at an enemy, like, "damn, you're ugly", while fighting, I'd get TWII flashbacks, because that character wouldn't shut up during combat too, with the same tone even).

 

but you can see other influences as well: timing crucial dialogue choices like in Alpha Protocol; investigating crime scenes like in Batman Arkham games; including finishers and dismemberment in combat like in Shadow of Mordor (though, it is done a lot better in SoM); lifting quest ideas from other games: heist preparation missions like in GTA V (picking your crew members and sourcing equipment), the haunted mansion quest just like in Bloodlines etc.

 

I don't remember all the stuff that struck me as homage or straight up ripoff, but it doesn't detract from the game, like I said in my previous post, these were the things I liked the most about it. I hated W2, it was a terrible game in my opinion, so W3 is definitely an upgrade compared to that. but it still has ways to go before I can call it the best RPG to date.

 

we'll see how Cyberpunk turns out.

[Nonek]

 I mean, it's not like bloody Outcast solved that issue 17 years ago in an extremely elegant and immersive fashion or anything *grumble grumble*

 

Well that's the nature of the current degeneration and dumbing down being championed by fanboys and apologists isn't it? Though the issue was solved long before Outcast, a map, maybe a sextant, a well designed gameworld and directions were enough to get you anywhere quickly and efficiently near a decade earlier. Simple and intuitive.

[Fenixp]

Well that's the nature of the current degeneration and dumbing down being championed by fanboys and apologists isn't it?

No :-P But let's not go down that route again, it's an incredibly subjective discussion anyway.

 

Though the issue was solved long before Outcast, a map, maybe a sextant, a well designed gameworld and directions were enough to get you anywhere quickly and efficiently near a decade earlier. Simple and intuitive.

I meant a systematic solution not adding more work to the entire development process (sextant might work like that too I suppose). The clever thing about Outcast is that its solution effectively worked as objective markers, was fully automated, but at the same time was very immersive and worked well within the setting. I would really like to see a game building upon that - instead of directions being pre-scripted pieces of writing, they could be made dynamic, with characters constructing effective way of getting somewhere based on their current position and position of wherever player wants to get (as in, in the background, pathfinding engine will set start, goal, translate individual steps of the way into a form which'll work for dialogue screen and then proper phrases would get picked from a pool into terribly sounding voice acted segment.)

 

It would solve both the issue with objective markers being necessary and with development process being more complicated in order to accommodate for proper directions. Probably the best system I've seen for leading player trough a big, open map was the one present in Miasmata tho - the player had to actively draw a map by triangulating his position based on landmarks around him, which would, in turn, reveal a part of his map. Alternatively, he could find pre-drawn maps lying around the world, which would also add points of interest to the map, marking locations which'll be important for the player - however, since there was nothing indicating direction player was facing save for compass and no magical icon telling player where exactly he is, he'd again need to locate himself using the triangulation method and comparing landmarks with what was on his map in case player got lost. A beautiful solution, using both pre-made assets and systematic solutions to help the player get his bearings. Shame the survival mechanics are so limited in that game.

 

... Dear Lord, I'm writing walls of off-topic again. There were nice ... Dots ... Where you had to go and uh ... Big circles for bigger areas in Witcher 3. I guess. Now I'm back on topic.

 

Edit: Actually, may I use this occasion to complain about the bloody batvision in W3? "Follow the red line made out of human steps or a scent (because yes, that's exactly how scents work.)" And even worse, when I was trying to actively avoid it in areas I was supposed to investigate, the game wouldn't let me interact with many objects without it being active. Why do I absolutely, positively need every clue in vicinity glowing!? I can find them myself thank you very much.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Fenixp

[Nonek]

Sounds over and unnecessarily complicated to me, reality already supplies answers that have been used for millenia, maps, direction, landmarks, signposts, milestones etcetera. Simply implement them in a well designed gameworld instead of relying on some form of quest marker leading by the nose as was done a quarter of a century ago before the degeneration.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Nonek

[Fenixp]

Well, context - Miasmata takes place on a deserted and largely unexplored island. It's just a very fun way of implementing navigation as a direct part of gameplay. Anyway, I would like to point out that map markers are precisely what millennia of evolution of navigation lead to, with modern GPS navigation systems and whatnot :-P It's difficult to excuse in non-high tech settings tho.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Fenixp

[licketysplit]

No quest markers at all would be labor intensive for Witcher 3.

 

Damn, I didn't edit correctly, lol. 

 

 

Which games do you think W3 cribs from? I see some influences sure, but I wouldn't call it derivative. 

 

if I were to name only one game W3 reminds me the most of, I'd say: Two Worlds II. in essence, W3 looks like a spiritual successor to TWII: the way the open world is designed, with all these caves and POI; the whole exploration aspect of it, random encounters with bandits and wildlife, swimming, horseback riding (feels almost exactly the same, so does crafting); the way the character talks even (whenever Geralt threw a line at an enemy, like, "damn, you're ugly", while fighting, I'd get TWII flashbacks, because that character wouldn't shut up during combat too, with the same tone even).

 

but you can see other influences as well: timing crucial dialogue choices like in Alpha Protocol; investigating crime scenes like in Batman Arkham games; including finishers and dismemberment in combat like in Shadow of Mordor (though, it is done a lot better in SoM); lifting quest ideas from other games: heist preparation missions like in GTA V (picking your crew members and sourcing equipment), the haunted mansion quest just like in Bloodlines etc.

 

I don't remember all the stuff that struck me as homage or straight up ripoff, but it doesn't detract from the game, like I said in my previous post, these were the things I liked the most about it. I hated W2, it was a terrible game in my opinion, so W3 is definitely an upgrade compared to that. but it still has ways to go before I can call it the best RPG to date.

 

we'll see how Cyberpunk turns out.

 

 

I'll give you the batvision. I wish that wasn't a thing in Witcher 3 and it's overused. Being in Poland, maybe some of the Two Worlds devs got hired by CDP, hence the similarities. The two quest lines in question are similar to those you mentioned, though they stand on their own enough for me, as well as dozens of other original scenarios. The heist one in particular seems homage to Ocean's 11 more than GTA. As for Geralt's quips and the investigation aspects, both are native to the series since Witcher 1, and indeed the books. You and Fenixp bring up fair points though. It's not like W3 is a trailblazer in the design department.

Edited September 3, 2016 by licketysplit

[Nonek]

:-P

 

I think you have a problem with your keyboard, a colon, a dash and an upper case P keep on appearing in your writing.

 

Idiot vision is I agree vastly overused in games.

[Fenixp]

No quest markers at all would be labor intensivbe for Witch

Is that a bad thing tho? If there's something Witcher 3 direly needs, it's a tad more editing. I'd kill for the game to be about half its current size with filler content being cut out and more effort being put into the game world - including such revolutionary features as proper signposts!

 

I think you have a problem with your keyboard, a colon, a dash and an upper case P keep on appearing in your writing.

Text without emoticons is so 1980s. Get on with times, old man.

[Orogun01]

 

No quest markers at all would be labor intensivbe for Witch

Is that a bad thing tho? If there's something Witcher 3 direly needs, it's a tad more editing. I'd kill for the game to be about half its current size with filler content being cut out and more effort being put into the game world - including such revolutionary features as proper signposts!

 

I think you have a problem with your keyboard, a colon, a dash and an upper case P keep on appearing in your writing.

Text without emoticons is so 1980s. Get on with times, old man.

 

You can always go back to Morrowind or any of the TES games that let you toggle into FPV where a sign would actually be something helpful as it s easier to notice. But that would mean that the entire level design needed a change in direction as it really isn't all that exciting in first view.

 

That said, Skellige could have been entirely cut out and they could have just focused on polishing.

[Lexx]

Honestly, traversing Morrowind felt like a huge pain to me back in the days. Don't know how many hours I've walked around just to find "that cave".

[HoonDing]

I flew/teleported around at 100mph while invisible 90% of the time.

[Orogun01]

Honestly, traversing Morrowind felt like a huge pain to me back in the days. Don't know how many hours I've walked around just to find "that cave".

You mean the one that they give you terrible directions to and you have to wander aimlessly for hours?

[sorophx]

I loved exploring Morrowind, that was such an awesome game. if only its game mechanics were as good, maybe I'd find the will to replay it...

[Humanoid]

Thing about videogame directions is that you would have to trust whoever wrote the NPC's script to be sufficiently accurate and complete in their directions because it's the only set of directions you can get. In the real world if you fail to find the place, you can go back either to the same person to ask for clarification or ask someone else entirely. In a videogame they'd just regurgitate the same dialogue line they used the first time around. If the directions are confusing or outright wrong, as they were occasionally in Morrowind, you're reliant on an external guide or just dumb luck. (Besides, if every quest were to have comprehensive and detailed directions, then you'd probably end up with the majority of the recorded lines in the game being exactly that and not, y'know, plot and characterisation)

 

Maybe it's heresy in "old-school gamer" circles (and I played the same games as they did), but I have no problem whatsoever with quest markers. You can justify it by imagining Geralt pulling out his map and the questgiver marking the exact spot, or maybe you can even imagine more implied dialogue with one or more NPCs helping in nailing down that exact location, whatever. All I can say is that amongst all that, I'm very much comfortable calling the game one of the best of all time, and in the conversation for GOAT.

[GhostofAnakin]

Anyone buy the Game of the Year edition?  Do the expansions come on the actual game disk with the base game, or do you get download codes?

[Lexx]

Maybe it's heresy in "old-school gamer" circles (and I played the same games as they did), but I have no problem whatsoever with quest markers. You can justify it by imagining Geralt pulling out his map and the questgiver marking the exact spot, or maybe you can even imagine more implied dialogue with one or more NPCs helping in nailing down that exact location, whatever. All I can say is that amongst all that, I'm very much comfortable calling the game one of the best of all time, and in the conversation for GOAT.

 

I don't mind quest markers either. Besides, nowadays games often give you the marker for the general location and on arrival it turns into a big circle, so you still have to look around a bit. TW3 did this a lot, at least. Feels much better than the dumb Bethesda game mechanic, where someone sends you find something and the quest marker sits directly on it. Now that's a dumb mechanic.

[Fenixp]

It's not that I mind quest markers per se, I just don't like when they're mandatory. Quest markers are extremely easy to implement, they might as well be there - it'd just be nice if games got developed around them being disabled and then added them later on.

 

You can always go back to Morrowind or any of the TES games that let you toggle into FPV where a sign would actually be something helpful as it s easier to notice. But that would mean that the entire level design needed a change in direction as it really isn't all that exciting in first view.

The game is optimized for 1080p and higher resolutions. I'm pretty sure CDP: Red can manage road signs legible in TPP :-P Now I wonder when did sign posts become common and how did they historically look like...

 

Thing about videogame directions is that you would have to trust whoever wrote the NPC's script to be sufficiently accurate and complete in their directions because it's the only set of directions you can get. In the real world if you fail to find the place, you can go back either to the same person to ask for clarification or ask someone else entirely.

That's not necessarily how it needs to be done tho - I know my walls of text are a slog to read, so I'll just point you towards how Outcast did things (NPCs just turning at pointing at where you're supposed to go) and possibility to build upon that (there's already functional GPS in GTA games, transcribing directions into dialogue would not be that difficult, altho admittedly results would not sound too natural)

 

TW3 did this a lot, at least.

And when you arrived to your destination, you've had to hold down the "highlight everything I need to interact with" button anyway because without it, the game often wouldn't even allow you to examine many clues. Edited September 4, 2016 by Fenixp

[HoonDing]

I marked most crap on TW3 map manually because the gps was wrong 95% of the time. Not to mention stupid horse getting stuck on pebbles.

[WDeranged]

Weren't those Morrowind signposts originally in daedric script?  Pretty sure modders had to do the english versions.

[Fenixp]

 

 

That's how the original looked. So you had to get close and hover your crosshair over individual signs to get their captions. I suppose Skyrim would have been a better example, but I'm worried that any mention of me liking Skyrim will get me stoned in any hardcore RPG community.

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Fenixp

[WDeranged]

I actually think Skyrim might be Bethesda's best game   

[Lexx]

Skyrim was the reason why I thought Bethesda learned at least a bit from their former mistakes and started making better rpgs. Compared to their other stuff before, Skyrim was a step in the right direction. And then Fallout 4 happened and they blew it all up again... :>

Edited September 4, 2016 by Lexx