Do Women Earn Less Than Men?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

So no citation then, for your harsh slander of a very level-headed, polite and sincere woman who happens to have a different world view than you.

 

Dude, you define "conspiracy theorist" as "someone who dares to oppose harmful social and economic policies championed by the Democratic Party, by pointing out their long-term harmfulness ^{[citation needed]}". At this point of vigorous strawmanning, there's no citation that could ever possibly convince you. Which is ironic, considering you just called me incapable of understanding, or empathizing with, those who hold political views opposing mine. Projecting much?

Edited June 6, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Volourn]

Truth hurts right Alum? Yup, the truth hurts. Of coruse, you are sexist. Bashing an intelligent women who doesn't agree with you.  Why do you bash women like that? LMAO

[luzarius]

If a woman works hard, give her equal pay, but never let anyone suppress your basic instinctual nature to show dominance over a woman. 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Truth hurts right Alum? Yup, the truth hurts.

 

Right-wing propaganda does tend to inflict an unfortunate burning sensation upon contact, not unlike holy water, but I wouldn't exactly call it "truth".

[Orogun01]

 

Truth hurts right Alum? Yup, the truth hurts.

 

Right-wing propaganda does tend to inflict an unfortunate burning sensation upon contact, not unlike holy water, but I wouldn't exactly call it "truth".

 

So you believe that the wage gap exists despite clear evidence to contrary?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Truth hurts right Alum? Yup, the truth hurts.

 

Right-wing propaganda does tend to inflict an unfortunate burning sensation upon contact, not unlike holy water, but I wouldn't exactly call it "truth".

 

So you believe that the wage gap exists despite clear evidence to contrary?

 

 

Well, the wage gap does exist, as proven by the study helpfully linked by Meshugger. It's just not as significant as people claim it is; but then again, I never ran around claiming a 23% wage gap. In fact, I have gone on record to point out that in certain professions, there's actually a wage gap that favors women.

 

What I take issue with, however, is Sommers' insistence on denying the profound effect culture has on shaping one's options and choices. It's vile and unscientific, choosing to tell the feelgood lie that everybody's a master of their own fortune, when in reality, we are very much products of our environments.

 

Also, those horrible floating text thingies offend my aesthetic sensibilities.

 

Edit: oh, and her "common sense proof" is a laughable strawman. It either means she basically has no understanding of what she's talking about, or (and I find the latter far more likely) it's purposefully deceitful.

Edited June 6, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Hiro Protagonist]

I didn't actually bother with the videos but my wife make hella more than me.

 

My wife is a RN. She makes more than I do. Now at least. Before my contract ran out at my last job it was the other way around.

 

My department head at work is a woman. I am quite sure she makes more then the rest of us.

Welcome to the club boys. My better half who does the same job as me earns more than I do, and my mother has always earned more than my father. I also have a good friend who does the same job as his wife and his wife earns more than he does.

[ktchong]

[213374U]

So no citation then, for your harsh slander of a very level-headed, polite and sincere woman who happens to have a different world view than you.

 

Well, unlike the second video and the one linked by Kirottu, she does not provide a single link or mention a specific study to back her claims. "Most workplace pay gaps narrow to the point of vanishing when one accounts for all of these relevant factors". I can guarantee that without a ****ton of citations, that would trigger an edit war on Wikipedia, let alone on any serious discussion forum in- or outside the internets (a "common sense proof" would draw nothing but derision — note that in Kirottu's video, that argument is used in a joking manner). This is 2015, it's almost mandatory to have a plethora of links and data to back one's soapboxing. If you want to take her at face value, it's your prerogative, but if you insist on accepting a laughably low standard of rigour from speakers you are ideologically close to while railing against "progressives" and "radical left-wingers" at every chance you get, be ready to draw flak. We all have our biases, hmm?

 

As an aside, she's also a pretty terrible narrator. I thought only numbers theory lecturers could get away with being so bad.

[Ineth]

 

So no citation then, for your harsh slander of a very level-headed, polite and sincere woman who happens to have a different world view than you.

 

Well, unlike the second video and the one linked by Kirottu, she does not provide a single link or mention a specific study to back her claims. "Most workplace pay gaps narrow to the point of vanishing when one accounts for all of these relevant factors".

 

Come on now, the fact that she doesn't go into detail on the individual statistics and studies in this introduction video to the topic, doesn't justify accusing her of "outright lies, malicious misuse of statistics".

 

No one is saying that that video should be taken as the be-all and the end-all on the topic of wage gaps. Rather than trying to teach people about The One True™ statistic or study, it seems to be more intended as an appeal to common sense, and to confront people who have until now simply believed the feminist narrative without really thinking about it, with these two points:

• The 77% statistic is grossly misleading; don't let it convince you you're a victim (if you're a woman), and don't let activists and politicians (even when they're the president) get away with using it as a justification for anything.

   

• When you're presented with other statistics that claim to account for differentiating factors other than gender, look closely at what factors they included - and which they didn't.

I don't see how those two points can be controversial among reasonable people, really. But maybe that's exactly what drives Alu so mad: If she had gone Fox News style "Don't think about these things critically; just believe this particular study here, it has been vetted by Rush Limbaugh and Jesus Christ!!!" it would have been very easy to reject her on a factual basis. But seeing how she's so damn reasonable, I guess ad-hominem attacks (Don't listen to her, she works for a conservative employer!) and unsubstantiated blanket accusation of "lies!!!!", will have to do.

 

PS: She does go into the details of the individual statistics and studies elsewhere, for example in her books and lectures.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

But maybe that's exactly what drives Alu so mad: If she had gone Fox News style "Don't think about these things critically; just believe this particular study here, it has been vetted by Rush Limbaugh and Jesus Christ!!!" it would have been very easy to reject her on a factual basis. 

 

 

How lucky I have expounded on the reasons why I find the video distasteful and manipulative.

 

So maybe we can cut back on the bad faith attempts at guessing, hm?

 

(Don't listen to her, she works for a conservative employer!) 

 

Understatement of the year much?

 

We're talking about an organization with the mission statement of "undoing the damage of the university". ("Education is eeevil... it buuuurrrrnnssssss uusssss...")

 

A guy who believes Judeo-Christian civilization is a "unique American creation" threatened by "secular extremism". Let me repeat that: Judeo-Christian civilization is a unique American creation. (Of course, given Mr. Prager's feelings towards institutes of higher learning, the fact that he holds such opinions is not surprising at all.) And of course fighting against gay marriage is the same as fighting against islamist extremism, because at this point, the only people left in the room are the kind who wouldn't find that sentiment in any way remarkable.

 

"She's working for an anti-intellectual conspiracy theorist" is one of the mildest ways you can put this.

 

PS: She does go into the details of the individual statistics and studies elsewhere, for example in her books and lectures.

 

Then again, she also claims in her books The War Against Boys and One Nation Under Therapy that feminist influence has resulted in banning the game "tag", which is such an utterly, mind-bogglingly idiotic statement to make, I almost fear my brain is at risk of spilling out through my eyesockets just by looking at it.

 

So maybe it's understandable if one has reservations about the credibility of said books.

Edited June 6, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Fighter]

 I doubt a male teacher would ever have to go through that.  

 

Through giving birth?

[BruceVC]

I didn't actually bother with the videos but my wife make hella more than me.

 

 

My wife is a RN. She makes more than I do. Now at least. Before my contract ran out at my last job it was the other way around.

 

My department head at work is a woman. I am quite sure she makes more then the rest of us.

 

Its okay boys, there is nothing wrong with your wife or partner earning more than you, it should be quite liberating. Think about it you can now say "  honey I really feel like going for dinner at our local steakhouse...but do you mind paying ?"  Nothing wrong with that  

[Namutree]

. Let me repeat that: Judeo-Christian civilization is a unique American creation. (Of course, given Mr. Prager's feelings towards institutes of higher learning, the fact that he holds such opinions is not surprising at all.)

Yeah, Prager's a real dunce. Once, I made the mistake of listening to his views on gay marriage. In that discussion he shot down Joe Biden's obvious appeal to emotion (which is not meant to convince smart people) in an interview about the issue and acted like it was some kind of intellectual victory. Even more absurd were the comments in the video who were so confident that Prager had just proved the "left" was wrong about gay marriage. 

Edited June 7, 2015 by Namutree

[Walsingham]

I didn't actually bother with the videos but my wife make hella more than me.

 

That's cause you cain't shake it like she do.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

I loathe Summers for her general wingnuttery, outright lies, malicious misuse of statistics, and working for an anti-intellectual conspiracy theorist. Compared to these, her involvement with GG isn't even a blip on the radar. Neither is it particularly surprising, mind.

 

 

Who is the best feminist scholar?

 

 

Twilight Sparkle

 

I have no idea, but I sure as hell have a strong candidate for who isn't   

 

 

Boo

 

Come on now, trust your instincts. For example, when someone says "left scholar", i say Noam Chomsky. When i say "Gender pay gap/feminist scholar" you say....?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

 

I loathe Summers for her general wingnuttery, outright lies, malicious misuse of statistics, and working for an anti-intellectual conspiracy theorist. Compared to these, her involvement with GG isn't even a blip on the radar. Neither is it particularly surprising, mind.

 

 

Who is the best feminist scholar?

 

 

Twilight Sparkle

 

I have no idea, but I sure as hell have a strong candidate for who isn't   

 

 

Boo

 

Come on now, trust your instincts. For example, when someone says "left scholar", i say Noam Chomsky. When i say "Gender pay gap/feminist scholar" you say....?

 

 

I don't say anything, because I'm studying medicine, not gender studies, therefore I lack the kind of insight into the field that would let me make such judgments.

 

There is value in acknowledging the limits of one's knowledge.

Edited June 6, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

 

I loathe Summers for her general wingnuttery, outright lies, malicious misuse of statistics, and working for an anti-intellectual conspiracy theorist. Compared to these, her involvement with GG isn't even a blip on the radar. Neither is it particularly surprising, mind.

 

 

Who is the best feminist scholar?

 

 

Twilight Sparkle

 

I have no idea, but I sure as hell have a strong candidate for who isn't   

 

 

Boo

 

Come on now, trust your instincts. For example, when someone says "left scholar", i say Noam Chomsky. When i say "Gender pay gap/feminist scholar" you say....?

 

 

I don't say anything, because I'm studying medicine, not gender studies, therefore I lack the kind of insight into the field that would let me make such judgments.

 

There is value in acknowledging the limits of one's knowledge.

 

 

Huh, i got the impression that you were quite knowledgeable in that field considering your comments about Sommers. My bad.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Huh, i got the impression that you were quite knowledgeable in that field considering your comments about Sommers. My bad.

 

 

"I have knowledgeable friends whose opinion I largely trust" shouldn't be confused with "I myself have more than a passing familiarity with the issue".

Edited June 6, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gfted1]

Its okay boys, there is nothing wrong with your wife or partner earning more than you, it should be quite liberating. Think about it you can now say "  honey I really feel like going for dinner at our local steakhouse...but do you mind paying ?"  Nothing wrong with that  

Im not upset, Im thrilled. I frequently try to talk her into letting me stay home and be a kept man, but so far shes not buying what Im selling. 

 

That's cause you cain't shake it like she do.

No, no I cannot.

[Hurlshort]

 

 I doubt a male teacher would ever have to go through that.  

 

Through giving birth?

 

 

Yeah.  Giving birth is super crazy.  It's a whole process.

[213374U]

No one is saying that that video should be taken as the be-all and the end-all on the topic of wage gaps. Rather than trying to teach people about The One True™ statistic or study, it seems to be more intended as an appeal to common sense, and to confront people who have until now simply believed the feminist narrative without really thinking about it, with these two points:

• The 77% statistic is grossly misleading; don't let it convince you you're a victim (if you're a woman), and don't let activists and politicians (even when they're the president) get away with using it as a justification for anything.

   

• When you're presented with other statistics that claim to account for differentiating factors other than gender, look closely at what factors they included - and which they didn't.

I don't see how those two points can be controversial among reasonable people, really. But maybe that's exactly what drives Alu so mad: If she had gone Fox News style "Don't think about these things critically; just believe this particular study here, it has been vetted by Rush Limbaugh and Jesus Christ!!!" it would have been very easy to reject her on a factual basis. But seeing how she's so damn reasonable, I guess ad-hominem attacks (Don't listen to her, she works for a conservative employer!) and unsubstantiated blanket accusation of "lies!!!!", will have to do.

 

PS: She does go into the details of the individual statistics and studies elsewhere, for example in her books and lectures.

 

 

 

In sociology and anthropology, there is no such thing as "The One Study (to rule them all)", and anyone contending otherwise should be regarded with suspicion. Problem is "appeals to common sense" are, in some cases fallacious without malice, and in others an outright exercise in deceit by oversimplifying things. They simply have no place in even semi-serious discussion. Hell, even the guy from "the best show in the universe" realizes this. His video is funnier, more informative and a hell of a lot more rigorous.

 

If she was trying to debunk the narrative from "Feminism 101", she should have presented the evidence she alludes to, and my point is that you wouldn't accept such weak argumentation from someone you didn't agree with beforehand. If her evidence was insufficient, suffered from methodological problems or was just plain old factually wrong, then it would be a weak refutation and she would have to try harder (better luck next time!). But at least that would be an honest attempt at trying to get people to examine the issue by themselves and form an informed opinion, rather than the boring shot at getting people to drink the Kool-Aid we ended up with. That's how we progress towards truth, by examining facts and discarding hypotheses that are contradicted by them, not by walking in the general direction we'd like truth to be in, and presenting evidence later. In this context, the process is more important than the result.

 

But critically, you are glossing over the worst part of the video (from 3:18 on), where she discusses what leads people to go for the career paths and make the decisions they do. She ridicules the social conditioning hypothesis (complete with the "watch out, badass over here" gesture) and discards it by saying that "perhaps in the pursuit of happiness men and women take somewhat different paths" (no **** Sherlock) and that "it's patronizing to suggest that women aren't free and self determining human beings". That is a by-the-book appeal to emotion, it is a rhetorical trick to lend an appearance of substance to an otherwise worthless argumentation. It is also quite difficult to excuse as an honest mistake or poor choice of words. Not to mention that it flies in the face of what we know about conditioning and the decision-making process. But, eh, details.

 

I have no idea if she's an incredibly serious scholar that always acts in good faith and her books are proof of this -first time I've heard of this lady- but I haven't time to read them and they are not what we're discussing here. And at any rate, the video doesn't exactly inspire me to dig into her work.

 

(I'd appreciate it if you didn't make me watch the video again...)

Edited June 6, 2015 by 213374U

[Meshugger]

After you guys have read my previous link, there is now time to check how things are going in one of the most free and richest countries on earth: Norway. Here, a paradox has arisen since achieving the highest level of equality, namely that women tend to revert to traditional female vocations. The following video was shown norwegian state television:

 

[213374U]

^ gotta love scientists essentially accusing other scientists of confirmation bias and then discarding their findings based on... nothing but their own biases.

[Barothmuk]