Men killed outside Art Exhibition in Dallas

[Calax]

Just gonna say, I am appalled at something that's shown up because of this incident.

 

Look closely at the shoulder patch of this Texas swat member. That's the ****ing Punisher symbol... on LAW ENFORCEMENT!

[Hiro Protagonist]

Were you also appalled when the punisher symbol was used in the American Sniper film?

[Agiel]

I would like to remind people that some would feel that this exhibition is tantamount to those squalid bigots of the Westboro Baptist Church holding anti-gay demonstrations by the funerals of soldiers who have died overseas. Last I checked, no one has pulled up to them with an Uzi to dispense 9mm "justice".

 

In a free society, everyone has freedom of speech and equal protection under the law. If you observe a certain religion then good for you, but so long as you inhabit this mortal coil the laws of men, not the laws of your god take precedent (no honour killings, stoning of apostates, or defending the name of the Prophet by violent means).

 

We were all endowed with free will, and it's up to us how we use it, consequences and all.

 

https://youtu.be/7oCmhZ-1gGc?t=41m5s

Edited May 5, 2015 by Agiel

[Wrath of Dagon]

I do tend to wonder at which point free speech and hate speech intersect. I could easily see dumping bacon on the front step of a synagogue being regarded as 'hate speech' while doing the same at a mosque would be free speech, given the current climate. End of the day in both cases the person might have the right to do it, but I'm not going to spare a single tear if they get their nose splattered across their face as a consequence; it would be played for and got. Which really is the point of provocation or being provocative, of course, it is to provoke. Any significant point made with a Muhammed cartoon can be made as well without one, it's just poking a bear with a pencil to prove how aggressive it is- a self fulfilling prophecy and if the bear pulls your arm off then meh, guess you've 'proved' your point about the bear, good job but don't expect me to cry myself to sleep at night to a #IkbenWilders hashtag.

Hate speech is free speech, at least in US. Popular speech doesn't need protection. Dumping bacon on front step of a synagogue would be a hate crime, because you're trespassing on private property. If it's a government building, you can bring in bacon, no matter who it offends. In other words, you can draw swastikas all you want, just not on someone else's property. There is a "fighting words" doctrine, where you personally insult someone, that could be considered a provocation. A public speech though wouldn't come under this, as you're not forced to listen to it.

 

I don't believe anyone's religion should be insulted, but that's a very different question of whether it should be legal or not, and if it is legal police have to protect the person same as everyone else, else they themselves would be engaging in censorship.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I don't believe anyone's religion should be insulted...

 

 

While I'm generally against wonton provocation I also don't think that religion should be a sacred cow and above critique or insult, it's wonderful that we don't have blasphemy laws and I'd hate to see that change. 

[BruceVC]

 

I do tend to wonder at which point free speech and hate speech intersect. I could easily see dumping bacon on the front step of a synagogue being regarded as 'hate speech' while doing the same at a mosque would be free speech, given the current climate. End of the day in both cases the person might have the right to do it, but I'm not going to spare a single tear if they get their nose splattered across their face as a consequence; it would be played for and got. Which really is the point of provocation or being provocative, of course, it is to provoke. Any significant point made with a Muhammed cartoon can be made as well without one, it's just poking a bear with a pencil to prove how aggressive it is- a self fulfilling prophecy and if the bear pulls your arm off then meh, guess you've 'proved' your point about the bear, good job but don't expect me to cry myself to sleep at night to a #IkbenWilders hashtag.

Hate speech is free speech, at least in US. Popular speech doesn't need protection. Dumping bacon on front step of a synagogue would be a hate crime, because you're trespassing on private property. If it's a government building, you can bring in bacon, no matter who it offends. In other words, you can draw swastikas all you want, just not on someone else's property. There is a "fighting words" doctrine, where you personally insult someone, that could be considered a provocation. A public speech though wouldn't come under this, as you're not forced to listen to it.

 

I don't believe anyone's religion should be insulted, but that's a very different question of whether it should be legal or not, and if it is legal police have to protect the person same as everyone else, else they themselves would be engaging in censorship.

 

 " Hate speech is free speech at least in the USA"....you right and that is why people like myself despite numerous visits to the USA don't understand this and how it is practically applied 

 

 

But Zora is also right, you could make any point you wanted about Islamic extremism without insulting the entire global Muslim community. So this whole event was an attempt to causes maximum consternation within the Muslim community and therefore get a reaction by a direct attack on there religion

 

WOD so you believe in the freedom of speech but don't support insults on religion, so you therefore condemn this art exhibition right ?

[BruceVC]

"Here are some of  the art exhibitions, take a look and tell me what message they are trying to express in your opinion?"

 

Their mocking Muslim extremism. Good on 'e,

 

I never see you cry when artists mock Christianity/Catholism. Why so hypocritical?

Sure, just provide me with the links showing art exhibitions that directly insult Christianity and Catholicism and I'll review them with a critical eye  

[Hurlshort]

I'm sure there would be some pretty serious health code violations if you went around dumping loads of bacon.

[BruceVC]

I'm sure there would be some pretty serious health code violations if you went around dumping loads of bacon.

 

I think what Zora is actually alluding to is if someone found a way to directly insult the entire Jewish community in the USA through some kind of " freedom of expression "  there would be consequences and people wouldn't just be able to say " its okay, its just freedom of speech".  I think the bacon story is just an analogy around the point he is making  ?

 

And I agree that there would consequences that would be  far reaching than just internet criticism 

[Zoraptor]

I used bacon because both Jews and Muslims regard it as 'unclean', and because that aversion is exactly as arbitrary as whether or not you can draw Muhammed or write the non transliteration of Jehovah or not*. Generally speaking there's also a dichotomy between the two, where deliberately targeting Jewish religious practices is seen as bad while deliberately targeting Muslim ones is seen as 'free speech' and sticking it to the terrists, usually by the same people.

 

Personally I think they're either both free speech or both hate speech. But I'm not going to waste my time worrying about which because either way the idea behind contravening them is just to be offensive and provocative, and is not to make an actual point- it's their right to be a git and they have to assert and protect the right to be a git against the dark night of encroaching lack of gitness, basically. Well yeah. Oddly enough, most people do absolutely fine without asserting their right to be a git and only attention courtesans, psychopaths and the chronically dumb actually revel and feel proud of being one.

 

*I could of course write ____ instead but, meh, I can make the point that I personally think it's silly without rubbing any orthodox type Jews' faces in it for no actual benefit.

[Darkpriest]

Bruce... we already are open enough for the muskims in the Western societies. Perhaps...just maybe... it is the time for the muslim countries to be more tolerant on THEIR SOIL toward all the non muslims. I am a fairly tolerant person but the tolerance is a two way street. If i get slapped time and again by those i am tolerant towards then you can't blame me for being against additional privilages for them and taking even a more carebear stance.

 

Making exceptions in treatment of one religion is unacceptable

[Hiro Protagonist]

Dumping bacon would no doubt get you a fine. Better analogies are required.

[Calax]

Were you also appalled when the punisher symbol was used in the American Sniper film?

Didn't see the film so couldn't get appalled. Sorry to break your mind.

[Hiro Protagonist]

You didn't break my mind. And no need to apologise.

[BruceVC]

Bruce... we already are open enough for the muskims in the Western societies. Perhaps...just maybe... it is the time for the muslim countries to be more tolerant on THEIR SOIL toward all the non muslims. I am a fairly tolerant person but the tolerance is a two way street. If i get slapped time and again by those i am tolerant towards then you can't blame me for being against additional privilages for them and taking even a more carebear stance.

 

Making exceptions in treatment of one religion is unacceptable

 

Sure, I have traveled and worked extensively in the Middle East and I know that many countries there are very conservative and have laws and customs that I disagree with. For example around the rights of women and the LGBT community. I won't dispute this ...but I think we are making progress in some areas

 

I just don't think this should be used as a way to say " because those countries lack social transformation now we in Western countries should act the same " 

 

I just think we should hold ourselves to a higher standard, we define our own culture based on what we stand for. It should make no difference what other people in other countries do?

 

But I can understand the frustration, its like there are double standards around how we as Westerners get treated in certain countries yet when people immigrate to our countries they expect certain rights and they are given those rights 

[BruceVC]

Just gonna say, I am appalled at something that's shown up because of this incident.

 

Look closely at the shoulder patch of this Texas swat member. That's the ****ing Punisher symbol... on LAW ENFORCEMENT!

I read the book " American Sniper " and his SEAL unit adopted that symbol during his time in Iraq. Chris Kyle also used that symbol when he started his sniping school after leaving the military

 

So it may be related to that as he was Texan and people may just be showing solidarity 

 

http://galleryhip.com/punisher-logo-chris-kyle.html

[Namutree]

 

I don't believe anyone's religion should be insulted,

 

I liked your comment except this part. I'd insult the crap outta people's religion if that religion warranted the insult. At least if I was asked my opinion on the given religion.

[Namutree]

Just gonna say, I am appalled at something that's shown up because of this incident.

 

Look closely at the shoulder patch of this Texas swat member. That's the ****ing Punisher symbol... on LAW ENFORCEMENT!

They're disgusting.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Would it have been better to have something like Judge Dredd?

[Calax]

Would it have been better to have something like Judge Dredd?

At least that guy is actually enforcing the twisted laws of the future. Punisher's entire point is that he ignores the law and kills people he knows done "Bad stuff" which is exactly what you don't want LAW ENFORCEMENT to idolize.

[BruceVC]

 

Would it have been better to have something like Judge Dredd?

At least that guy is actually enforcing the twisted laws of the future. Punisher's entire point is that he ignores the law and kills people he knows done "Bad stuff" which is exactly what you don't want LAW ENFORCEMENT to idolize.

 

 

But as I mentioned I doubt that is why they using that symbol, I really think its got to do with Chris Kyle 

 

I can completely understand your concern if they were using that symbol for other reasons apart from what I mentioned as the Punisher by nature isn't law abiding which would be problem for anyone who is in  law enforcement 

[Nonek]

I used bacon because both Jews and Muslims regard it as 'unclean', and because that aversion is exactly as arbitrary as whether or not you can draw Muhammed or write the non transliteration of Jehovah or not*. Generally speaking there's also a dichotomy between the two, where deliberately targeting Jewish religious practices is seen as bad while deliberately targeting Muslim ones is seen as 'free speech' and sticking it to the terrists, usually by the same people.

 

Personally I think they're either both free speech or both hate speech. But I'm not going to waste my time worrying about which because either way the idea behind contravening them is just to be offensive and provocative, and is not to make an actual point- it's their right to be a git and they have to assert and protect the right to be a git against the dark night of encroaching lack of gitness, basically. Well yeah. Oddly enough, most people do absolutely fine without asserting their right to be a git and only attention courtesans, psychopaths and the chronically dumb actually revel and feel proud of being one.

 

*I could of course write ____ instead but, meh, I can make the point that I personally think it's silly without rubbing any orthodox type Jews' faces in it for no actual benefit.

 

Having worked on a farm as a lad i've never seen the point of the disdain for swine, they're actually quite clean, tidy and fastidious in their pens. I assume it's the mudbaths that they indulge in that bothered early Muslims.

 

Putting that aside however i've been looking up the organisation that backed this display today, the ADSF or something, they're a nationalist group similar to the English Defence League (National Front by any other name,) and in fact their leader a young lady was barred from entering Britain recently to speak at an EDF rally. It was clearly an incitement and villification but I still say that they are well within their rights to stage it, and would defend their free speech. However to ensure parity I would also stage a display on Islamic history, achievements, philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, culture and languages, as well as the cultures that were present before Muhammed came to the mountain.

 

Teach, display and wave in the faces of such people as the previous organisers how much the cradle of civilisation has gifted the world, and how much later civilisation were unknowingly or not influenced by their cultures. As a last resort throw on some Harryhausen Sinbad films and enjoy the tales that entranced many a child of my era. I think this would be a more appropriate response personally.

[BruceVC]

 

I used bacon because both Jews and Muslims regard it as 'unclean', and because that aversion is exactly as arbitrary as whether or not you can draw Muhammed or write the non transliteration of Jehovah or not*. Generally speaking there's also a dichotomy between the two, where deliberately targeting Jewish religious practices is seen as bad while deliberately targeting Muslim ones is seen as 'free speech' and sticking it to the terrists, usually by the same people.

 

Personally I think they're either both free speech or both hate speech. But I'm not going to waste my time worrying about which because either way the idea behind contravening them is just to be offensive and provocative, and is not to make an actual point- it's their right to be a git and they have to assert and protect the right to be a git against the dark night of encroaching lack of gitness, basically. Well yeah. Oddly enough, most people do absolutely fine without asserting their right to be a git and only attention courtesans, psychopaths and the chronically dumb actually revel and feel proud of being one.

 

*I could of course write ____ instead but, meh, I can make the point that I personally think it's silly without rubbing any orthodox type Jews' faces in it for no actual benefit.

 

Having worked on a farm as a lad i've never seen the point of the disdain for swine, they're actually quite clean, tidy and fastidious in their pens. I assume it's the mudbaths that they indulge in that bothered early Muslims.

 

Putting that aside however i've been looking up the organisation that backed this display today, the ADSF or something, they're a nationalist group similar to the English Defence League (National Front by any other name,) and in fact their leader a young lady was barred from entering Britain recently to speak at an EDF rally. It was clearly an incitement and villification but I still say that they are well within their rights to stage it, and would defend their free speech. However to ensure parity I would also stage a display on Islamic history, achievements, philosophy, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, culture and languages, as well as the cultures that were present before Muhammed came to the mountain.

 

Teach, display and wave in the faces of such people as the previous organisers how much the cradle of civilisation has gifted the world, and how much later civilisation were unknowingly or not influenced by their cultures. As a last resort throw on some Harryhausen Sinbad films and enjoy the tales that entranced many a child of my era. I think this would be a more appropriate response personally.

 

 

Mmm.... a reasonable post from you Nonek and one I agree with, its a strange thing for me to see 

 

Nonek you said earlier that Freedom of Speech is basically a foundation of Western cultures which as you know I support and believe in

 

In the UK  there have been several cases of people being prosecuted  for Twitter comments especially when it comes to racist comments. How do you reconcile this ? Does the UK not believe in free speech because by prosecuting  people who just make Twitter comments isn't this a contradiction to saying "we believe in free speech " ?

Edited May 5, 2015 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

Having worked on a farm as a lad i've never seen the point of the disdain for swine, they're actually quite clean, tidy and fastidious in their pens. I assume it's the mudbaths that they indulge in that bothered early Muslims.

 

Pigs were one of animals that often had parasites in past before better domestication and medicines that were dangerous for humans, which is speculated to be reason why Jews considered them as unclean and I would guess that it was similar reason for early Muslims. But one don't write in holy book that you can't eat this meat because it may make you sick or even kill you, but that some holy power has deemed animal to be unclean/dirty/etc..

 

And threat from those parasites has not yet fully disappeared.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/05/110502-wild-pigs-parasites-animals-pork-science-health-nation/

[213374U]

 

 

Would it have been better to have something like Judge Dredd?

At least that guy is actually enforcing the twisted laws of the future. Punisher's entire point is that he ignores the law and kills people he knows done "Bad stuff" which is exactly what you don't want LAW ENFORCEMENT to idolize.

 

 

But as I mentioned I doubt that is why they using that symbol, I really think its got to do with Chris Kyle

 

 

 

For once, Bruce is right.

 

 

 

 

 

Right click on the image and open it in a new window — it reads "Chris Kyle" right over the Texas flag, and somethingsomething underneath. Why public servants would want to sport the name of, at best, a pathological liar on their shoulder is beyond me, however.

 

Lol @ "law enforcement", though. You couldn't tell those guys apart from typical USASOC or MARSOC operators if it weren't for the "Garland Police" patch. But technically they aren't military, so no need to formally repeal that pesky Posse Comitatus Act! Great job. :salute:

 

For reference, for those of you who have actually forgotten, this is what law enforcement looks like:

 

 

 

edit: is that a combat knife scabbard that's partially covered by his hand? Uh...

Edited May 5, 2015 by 213374U