Is Brute Force ability really worth it?

[adaxe]

Brute Force: On attacks that normally target deflection the barbarian will instead attack fortitude if it is the lower defense.

 

I just checked the bestiary both in Hard and PotD, and found that most mob (maybe more than 75%) has much much higher fortitude than deflection. 

 

So I think this ability is quite useless, even with Threatening Presence. 

[Climhazzard]

Some will argue that it is worth it.  I certainly think it's value is questionable considering it costs you talent points for no gain in many situations.  Sickened however is a pretty good debuff as it improves the use of crowd control from your party members (do you want that petrify spell to hit or not?).  So considering that threatening presence helps your team, it seems like it might be worth using it and brute force on your barbarian.  Most enemies in the bestiary, minus 20 fortitude from sickened, have less fortitude than they do deflection, some by a significant amount.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Climhazzard

[adaxe]

Most enemies in the bestiary, minus 20 fortitude from sickened, have less fortitude than they do deflection, some by a significant amount.

 

I doubt so... It seems that well more than half enemies in the bestiary have higher fortitude than they do deflection,  even minus 20.

 

And information in game says that "a sickened character has all attributes reduced by 1. Fortitude and Will are reduced by 10". So it is 10, not 20. 

[Blovski]

Brute Force: On attacks that normally target deflection the barbarian will instead attack fortitude if it is the lower defense.

 

I just checked the bestiary both in Hard and PotD, and found that most mob (maybe more than 75%) has much much higher fortitude than deflection. 

 

So I think this ability is quite useless, even with Threatening Presence. 

Vithracks have really crap Fortitude, I think, and they're pretty nasty. There's not loads of occasions where it's amazing but there are a fair few.

[cctobias]

I suppose the main use, in a perfectly designed world, might be to make things like Arcane Veil not as much of an issue for Barbs.  So anything that is like a caster that buff deflection would probably have low Fort and still be hittable.

 

Whether that is all that useful in reality I am not that sure.  I would guess in general it might translate to like 10% more hits overall?  

 

 

Since Def and Fort seem to be highly correlated it would seem to be more a counter to buffs since most Def buffs do not buff Fort.  Even then it may not be worth it if  some other pure accuracy thing can be taken instead.  Against Arcane Veil with its now hefty bonus sure, but some other Def buffs can be 8,10 or 20 and some +6 accuracy thing like a weapon focus is either clearly better or at least better on average at 10 and up for debate at 20 and very dependent on frequency of use. 

[MadDemiurg]

Haven't seen a single mob using arcane veil in the whole game though. In a theoretical world barb would also counter these annoying 2 might orlan tanks (insert a picture of aumaua barbarian using hulk mode on orlan paladin). 

 

I still think it's worth it for synergy with casters. Plus a large portion of enemies (kith) is missing from the bestiary and some of them have low fort, but I'm not sure about the percentage of these tbh.

[cctobias]

Haven't seen a single mob using arcane veil in the whole game though. In a theoretical world barb would also counter these annoying 2 might orlan tanks (insert a picture of aumaua barbarian using hulk mode on orlan paladin). 

 

I still think it's worth it for synergy with casters. Plus a large portion of enemies (kith) is missing from the bestiary and some of them have low fort, but I'm not sure about the percentage of these tbh.

Yeah its kind of weird too, because when you read stuff about guns in the world they specifically mention how important it is to counter Arcane Veil.

 

Its like its a mechanic they had in mind but forgot to actually put on things.

[Jarmo]

AFAK, the whole guns can penetrate arcane veil thing was something that during the kickstarter campaign,

before the whole combat system even existed, was going to be a big deal in the game. 

Some wizards were now using armor, just because they were no longer invulnerable behind their mighty veil.

Guess they originally had a more D&D world in mind, where high power wizards are the thing. 

 

Of course, after the combat system was made and all classes balanced out, the whole arcane veil ended up with a short stick.

A rather useless ability that might as well be left out, except it was kind of promised in the kickstarter so it stayed, as did the

veil piercing ability of guns.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Jarmo

[Loren Tyr]

 

I doubt so... It seems that well more than half enemies in the bestiary have higher fortitude than they do deflection,  even minus 20.

 

And information in game says that "a sickened character has all attributes reduced by 1. Fortitude and Will are reduced by 10". So it is 10, not 20. 

 

 

As the thread has popped up anyway, just wanted to point out: effectively Fortitude and Will are thus reduced by 14, not 10. And of course 28 for Weakened, so if you have a Priest with Painful Interdiction it might be worth (especially against Kith, I suspect).

Edited May 21, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[Torm51]

AFAK, the whole guns can penetrate arcane veil thing was something that during the kickstarter campaign,

before the whole combat system even existed, was going to be a big deal in the game. 

Some wizards were now using armor, just because they were no longer invulnerable behind their mighty veil.

Guess they originally had a more D&D world in mind, where high power wizards are the thing. 

 

Of course, after the combat system was made and all classes balanced out, the whole arcane veil ended up with a short stick.

A rather useless ability that might as well be left out, except it was kind of promised in the kickstarter so it stayed, as did the

veil piercing ability of guns.

Holy Helig of Thein. 

 

Arcane Veil is in no way useless man.  In the early game or late.  for 18 seconds or more I can have my Wizard be invulnerable to any melee attacks as their deflection will shoot skyward to close to 200 (late game).  In the early game it makes the Raedric fight on PotD a breeze.  I use the Wizard as a shotgun in front of the party hit Arcane Veil and hes got 102 deflection at level 4 lmao.  Fan of flames to the face 4 times after a blind and Raedric and his boys are bacon.  You can do this in hard fights and make your Wizard pretty much untouchable letting him casts spells that otherwise are hard to set up cause of friendly fire.  I play Triple Crown mode so those cones are harder to set up without hitting the party if you aren't in front.

 

That goes to my second point maybe since I play Triple Crown mode always and I don't have the spell graphic to show me where spells are going and I have to estimate. Arcane Veil and making my Wizard unhittable so he can be upfront is more useful. 

Edited May 21, 2016 by Torm51

[Torm51]

and yes with a Priest and Painful Interdiction almost every mob will have lower Fort.  So worth it then.  And the sicken itself even if you don't get Brute Force is worth it for reliable Party CCs.  Again this is Triple Crown mode perspective.  Everything has higher defense so debuffing is almost mandatory.

[Boeroer]

It's especially good if you combine Brute Force, Threatening Presence and Painful Interdiction (or any other weakening AoE thing) with a melee weapon that does prone or stun on crit (check also targets fortitude). Like Tall Grass, Hours of St. Rumbalt, The Temperacl, Godansthunyr, We Toki, Mabec's Morning Star and Cladhaliath.

[Loren Tyr]

It's especially good if you combine Brute Force, Threatening Presence and Painful Interdiction (or any other weakening AoE thing) with a melee weapon that does prone or stun on crit (check also targets fortitude). Like Tall Grass, Hours of St. Rumbalt, The Temperacl, Godansthunyr, We Toki, Mabec's Morning Star and Cladhaliath.

 

But Sickened and Weakened don't stack though, right? Or rather, their debuff effects (insofar as they affect the same stats) don't. Obviously it'd still be useful for this to have both of them because Painful Interdiction is only temporary, but when they are both in effect I would think you'd still only get a total of 28 point Fortitude and 24 point Will debuff.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[Elric Galad]

Sickened and Weakened Will and Fortitude defense debuff stack. But their Stat debuff don't stack. Go figure...

 

So the total is -38 Fortitude and -34 Will.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Yosharian]

It's a great talent, all you need is several other abilities/spells from other classes and then you can hit your opponent slightly more easily. As long as it's not one of the many monsters with high fortitude though.

 

Yeah. It's ****.

[Torm51]

It's a great talent, all you need is several other abilities/spells from other classes and then you can hit your opponent slightly more easily. As long as it's not one of the many monsters with high fortitude though.

 

Yeah. It's ****.

point taken. I can see why people wouldn't like it as its a big investment.  Byutthe guy that said Arcane Veil is bad is wrong.  Its a phenomenal defensive cool down for mobs that like to teleport/run by to your backline as it makes your wizard unhittable.   After 2.0 I have always had one defensive cool down even for my backline/heavy hitters.

 

If you like to play a battle mage with your wizard late game its really good (including Hardened Veil).

Edited May 21, 2016 by Torm51

[Loren Tyr]

It's a great talent, all you need is several other abilities/spells from other classes and then you can hit your opponent slightly more easily. As long as it's not one of the many monsters with high fortitude though.

 

Yeah. It's ****.

 

Ah yes, because the only reason anyone could possibly have to use Threatening Presence or Painful Interdiction (or to debuff Fortitude in general) would be to enable Brute Force... 

 

Not saying it's a great talent, but it does have its uses.

[Loren Tyr]

Sickened and Weakened Will and Fortitude defense debuff stack. But their Stat debuff don't stack. Go figure...

 

So the total is -38 Fortitude and -34 Will.

 

But they don't stack (as one would expect, given the stacking rules) on my own characters. Are the stacking rules different for enemies (seems counter-intuitive) or on PotD (I only play on Hard)?

[Boeroer]

They used to stack. If they don't then that's a new nerf and Brute Force is not worth one ability point. If they still stack it's a good (not great) ability for barbs who use prone- or stun-on-crit weapons.

[Loren Tyr]

They used to stack. If they don't then that's a new nerf and Brute Force is not worth one ability point. If they still stack it's a good (not great) ability for barbs who use prone- or stun-on-crit weapons.

 

That might be it, then. They don't stack (see attached). Though I think it isn't actually a nerf as such but more of a fix, since I can't imagine they were ever intended to stack in the first place; after all they are both penalties to the same stat.

 

I still think Brute Force can be useful though. Then again I like flavourful talents more than I like 100% optimized builds, so that may be a difference in play style. 

[Elric Galad]

Brute Force is one of the rare barbarian abilities that enables him to do something else than just AoE.

 

That said, my biggest pb with Brute Force is that it is far easier to debuff Deflection than Fortitude. Yes, threatening presence and Painfull interdiction work, but then Mental Binding, Shadowflames or various thunder spells come and target's Deflection becomes the lower again.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Elric Galad

[MaxQuest]

That might be it, then. They don't stack (see attached). Though I think it isn't actually a nerf as such but more of a fix, since I can't imagine they were ever intended to stack in the first place; after all they are both penalties to the same stat.

Hmm, could you test it on enemy mobs?

 

I remember I tested it few months ago in 3.0 (was also thinking of barb+interdiction combo).

And these are the numbers I've got against a Swamp Spore:

 

def, fort, ref, will:
---------------------
50, 96, 48, 68 - default 
49, 82, 44, 54 - sickened
49, 54, 44, 34 - sickened, weakened
49, 54, 36, 30 - sickened, weakened, dazzed
---------------------------------
50, 68, 40, 44 - weakened, dazzed
50, 96, 40, 64 - dazzed
50, 68, 48, 48 - weakened

[Loren Tyr]

I tried it out on dear Justiciar Aldemar, for Fortitude he has 34 base, 20 when Sickened, and 6 when Weakened or Weakened + Sickened. So it indeed does not stack anymore, just 14 or 28 off. Didn't look at Will, but no reason to assume that's any different.

 

By the way, is there an easy way to get a read-out of an enemy's stats? I got these by applying Withering Strike and/or (a nearby) Fetid Caress which happen to attack Fortitude anyway, so I could just see the changed Fortitude values immediately, but since I didn't attack Will or Reflex those were still question marks. Is there a console command to make those immediately visible, or is it just a matter of attacking Will and Reflex as well?

Edited May 21, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[Boeroer]

OK, thanks. Now I would like to know if it also gets suppressed on enemies.

 

I'm on vacation - so please feed me guys.

[MaxQuest]

I tried it out on dear Justiciar Aldemar, for Fortitude he has 34 base, 20 when Sickened, and 6 when Weakened or Weakened + Sickened. So it indeed does not stack anymore, just 14 or 28 off. Didn't look at Will, but no reason to assume that's any different.

I don't remember that character. Where is he located?

 

Is there a console command to make those immediately visible, or is it just a matter of attacking Will and Reflex as well?

UnlockBestiary helps only partially. You would still see the question marks, like: 50? 96? 48? 68?

To be most sure, I just temporary set int to 1, and attack the target with spells that target different defenses first, and check the base values when the effects have expired.