Council of Stars - Teir Evron - Why are so many deities missing?

[Luckmann]

Spoilers, obviously.

As part of the main quest, you eventually end up with the quest Council of Stars, during which you're asked to pray to a deity of your choosing. Except not really. You're limited to a number of deities, that is, to the ones that are present at the temple. Which is.. odd, considering that the temple is really, really, really, really, really old.
 

 
Blue = Altar of which deity. Red = Corresponding symbol. Green = Missing altars.

Notably absent is Eothas, who does not get a symbol nor an altar.

And it's extremely odd. Even if you can't pray to all the gods for whatever reason - they may be silent, they may be dead, they may ignore you - the altars should've still been there. Notably *present* is both Wael and Woedica, who you cannot contact through prayer here, so why wasn't Abydon, Magran, Skaen, Ondra and Eothas given the same treatment?

If anything, by the background mythos, Woedica has been "dead" or "possibly dead" for far longer than Eothas. I think this is all a pretty serious discrepancy and I can't really wrap my head around why they didn't just include all the deities.
 
Eothas missing from the sky and his altar silent, but still there, and if you were a Priest of Eothas, you could try to pray anyway - and fail. Magran giving you the silent treatment, especially if you have Durance in your party. Abydon refusing to get involved. Skaen as silent as Wael and Woedica, obviously. Ondra.. no clue, but whatever.

I realize that there's such a thing as constraints and they may have felt a need to restrict the number of available quests, but at that point, it would've been far preferable if the alters were there but just not communicative.
 
What's even odder is that when you do pray, you can utter prayers - some obvious incorrect - to ten different gods. Ten. Not eleven. These are:

• Abydon.
• Berath.
• Galawain.
• Hylea.
• Magran.
• Ondra.
• Rymrgand.
• Skaen.
• Wael.
• Woedica.

 

And again Eothas is ignored. Not from an objective observer/meta perspective, but from an in-character perspective. You can't even utter the wrong prayer to the wrong god and accidentally pray to Eothas by mistake. That is beyond stupid. The game almost makes it a point to make it ambiguous whether Eothas is truly dead or not, and whether Waidwen was truly Eothas or not, but at the same time, virtually jumps through hoops to drive home the meta that, yeah, he is, and he was, by restriction options related to him.
 
Also, this might've been the best opportunity to use scripted interactions that never was. Instead there's a regular dialogue screen and a repeating light show. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed.

What gives?
 

And yes, I know you can work with Skaen or Wael at a later date given the right circumstances, but that doesn't make this any less odd.

 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Luckmann

[perilisk]

I see your point, though the four shrines don't really represent gods so much as they represent endgame choices. Technically you can ally with any living god, but some are part of a team of likeminded gods.

[Karkarov]

Well the game also tells you about when you see gods in a group you should address them all and in reality the only god in the whole game you never get the chance to talk to on some level is well Eothas.  I think the game goes out of it's way to explain Eothas is sort of on the downlow right now so it shouldn't be a shocker he makes no appearance here.

[Luckmann]

I see your point, though the four shrines don't really represent gods so much as they represent endgame choices. Technically you can ally with any living god, but some are part of a team of likeminded gods.

 

Yes of course, I understand that, but here, the meta ("endgame choices") really clashes with the roleplay (the representation of the gods from an in-universe point of view). If it's really just about restricting choices to something reasonable (in this case 4), it could've been done much better, such as still giving each god an altar, only that - like the altar of Wael and Woedica - the gods do not respond when you pray.

 

And the fact that the prayer to Eothas is just omitted is nothing short of unforgivable. Like I said, you can't even accidentally pray to Eothas by mistake. Skaen gets no altar, yet you can accidentally pray to him at another altar.

 

Well the game also tells you about when you see gods in a group you should address them all and in reality the only god in the whole game you never get the chance to talk to on some level is well Eothas.  I think the game goes out of it's way to explain Eothas is sort of on the downlow right now so it shouldn't be a shocker he makes no appearance here.

 

Yes of course. But that does in no way explain why Eothas do not have an altar, nor why you can't pray to him. He's not there, or if he is there, he's not going to show in the starlit sky, nor respond to prayers. We know that due to implied implications in the game. But the altar should still be there, and you should still be able to pray to him.

 

And even so, it doesn't explain the absence of Abydon, Skaen, Ondra and Magran. Those you can even pray to - although by the wrong altar - and they are still shown in the starlit sky (which I do not think Eothas would, whether by choice or due to death). They just don't have any altars. In an ancient, ancient temple dedicated to all the gods.

 

 

My deathlike bleak walker chose to only pray to Berath, because.. well.. Berath. I think it's odd that you can pray to several different gods, I expected it to be mutually exclusive. Choose your god, so to speak.

 

Edited April 30, 2015 by Luckmann

[Karkarov]

And even so, it doesn't explain the absence of Abydon, Skaen, Ondra and Magran. Those you can even pray to - although by the wrong altar - and they are still shown in the starlit sky (which I do not think Eothas would, whether by choice or due to death). They just don't have any altars. In an ancient, ancient temple dedicated to all the gods.

They aren't absent, they either just won't talk to you or are in a group.  The twins outside tell you straight up the gods aren't always "present" and even if they are don't always respond.  I got the implication the altars were not dedicated to specific gods but were just there to commune with the god closest to that alter.  That maybe you could come back next week and only berath and skaen might by hanging out and the others may be absent entirely.

[Luckmann]

 

And even so, it doesn't explain the absence of Abydon, Skaen, Ondra and Magran. Those you can even pray to - although by the wrong altar - and they are still shown in the starlit sky (which I do not think Eothas would, whether by choice or due to death). They just don't have any altars. In an ancient, ancient temple dedicated to all the gods.

They aren't absent, they either just won't talk to you or are in a group.  The twins outside tell you straight up the gods aren't always "present" and even if they are don't always respond.  I got the implication the altars were not dedicated to specific gods but were just there to commune with the god closest to that alter.  That maybe you could come back next week and only berath and skaen might by hanging out and the others may be absent entirely.

 

 

If that was so, then why have separate altars for each deity at all, instead of altars that you pray at, and pick your deity? And then why would you be punished if you said the "wrong" prayer at the "wrong" altar? And that still wouldn't explain why you can't say a prayer to Eothas, it would just make it even weirder. Even the specific altars to Woedica and Wael are explicitly non-communicative, you cannot even attempt to use them, and they are clearly intended as the altars of Woedica and Wael, respectively.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Luckmann

[Primislas]

 

 

And even so, it doesn't explain the absence of Abydon, Skaen, Ondra and Magran. Those you can even pray to - although by the wrong altar - and they are still shown in the starlit sky (which I do not think Eothas would, whether by choice or due to death). They just don't have any altars. In an ancient, ancient temple dedicated to all the gods.

They aren't absent, they either just won't talk to you or are in a group.  The twins outside tell you straight up the gods aren't always "present" and even if they are don't always respond.  I got the implication the altars were not dedicated to specific gods but were just there to commune with the god closest to that alter.  That maybe you could come back next week and only berath and skaen might by hanging out and the others may be absent entirely.

 

 

If that was so, then why have separate altars for each deity at all, instead of altars that you pray at, and pick your deity? And then why would you be punished if you said the "wrong" prayer at the "wrong" altar? And that still wouldn't explain why you can't say a prayer to Eothas, it would just make it even weirder. Even the specific altars to Woedica and Wael are explicitly non-communicative, you cannot even attempt to use them, and they are clearly intended as the altars of Woedica and Wael, respectively.

 

 

The shrines are just shrines, they aren't dedicated to any particular gods. Recipients of prayers are defined by constellations closest to an altar. Dryads outside say that you should pray [at the altar] closest to those you want to be heard by. I guess designers created only 6 altars because the game had 6 groups of gods at this particular point in time. 5 useless altars (technically 7 with Woedica and Wael) with the extra space required to clearly show the PC that no god is near them was probably too much.

Edit: Oh, right. What Karkarov said in that quote above. 

Edit2: But Woedica and Wael are present as constellations next to free altars, that's why altars are 'dedicated' to them (but not really). Again trying to second-guess designers I figure they wanted to have all the active gods present in the scene and that's all there is to it.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Primislas

[Ormag]

Eothas is dead m8

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

And even so, it doesn't explain the absence of Abydon, Skaen, Ondra and Magran. Those you can even pray to - although by the wrong altar - and they are still shown in the starlit sky (which I do not think Eothas would, whether by choice or due to death). They just don't have any altars. In an ancient, ancient temple dedicated to all the gods.

They aren't absent, they either just won't talk to you or are in a group.  The twins outside tell you straight up the gods aren't always "present" and even if they are don't always respond.  I got the implication the altars were not dedicated to specific gods but were just there to commune with the god closest to that alter.  That maybe you could come back next week and only berath and skaen might by hanging out and the others may be absent entirely.

 

 

If that was so, then why have separate altars for each deity at all, instead of altars that you pray at, and pick your deity? And then why would you be punished if you said the "wrong" prayer at the "wrong" altar? And that still wouldn't explain why you can't say a prayer to Eothas, it would just make it even weirder. Even the specific altars to Woedica and Wael are explicitly non-communicative, you cannot even attempt to use them, and they are clearly intended as the altars of Woedica and Wael, respectively.

 

 

The shrines are just shrines, they aren't dedicated to any particular gods. Recipients of prayers are defined by constellations closest to an altar. Dryads outside say that you should pray [at the altar] closest to those you want to be heard by. I guess designers created only 6 altars because the game had 6 groups of gods at this particular point in time. 5 useless altars (technically 7 with Woedica and Wael) with the extra space required to clearly show the PC that no god is near them was probably too much.

Edit: Oh, right. What Karkarov said in that quote above. 

Edit2: But Woedica and Wael are present as constellations next to free altars, that's why altars are 'dedicated' to them (but not really). Again trying to second-guess designers I figure they wanted to have all the active gods present in the scene and that's all there is to it.

 

 

Alright, so, you're responding to a post that responded to the arguments you yourself respond with? I'm not sure what to say without just copy-pasting the very post you responded to.

 

Eothas is dead m8

 

That's not sure, but that is also completely, completely beside the point.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I also found it odd that there wasn't a pedestal for each god. Obsidian could have easily added another five pedestals including a rune for Eothas. The rune could have been dimmed to suggest he might be alive or dead and leave it open to interpretation. And clicking on those other pedestals may not have done anything suggesting the god is not answering.

[Elerond]

It could be that Eothas shrine isn't absent from Temple, but that his constellation should be next to Hylea's as they are/were allies and share some aspects of in their portfolios. Or maybe he should be next to Woedica, whose ally he was too, which is why he had knowledge about Thaos plan to use those soul moving machines to strengthen her and same time cause hollowborn epidemic. And now his constellation don't light up because he is dead or too weak  which prevent him to channel his power in that star mirror (which ever it was called).

 

But I would say that those groups of gods should need prayer for all the gods in the group instead of just the one who has decided to give task for you.  As you are speaking to all of them and not just the one that speaks back to you, which would make one think that you should show your respects to all of them and not just one of them.

 

Of course there is possibility that Eothas is not actually created by same people as other gods, but for example competing faction inside of Engwithan society, which he is not connected to that temple. 

 

But I agree that constellation map is not best design choices they have made.

[Luckmann]

I also found it odd that there wasn't a pedestal for each god. Obsidian could have easily added another five pedestals including a rune for Eothas. The rune could have been dimmed to suggest he might be alive or dead and leave it open to interpretation. And clicking on those other pedestals may not have done anything suggesting the god is not answering.

 

My interpretation was that the constellation, the "runes", were actual starlit constellations. So I can fully understand that Eothas wouldn't be there at all, whether Eothas is dead or just hiding, but I still think the shrine should've been there.

 

...inb4 Eothas has had his soul split into the twin deities of Mercy and Vengeance.

[Venatio]

 

My interpretation was that the constellation, the "runes", were actual starlit constellations. So I can fully understand that Eothas wouldn't be there at all, whether Eothas is dead or just hiding, but I still think the shrine should've been there.

...inb4 Eothas has had his soul split into the twin deities of Mercy and Vengeance.

 

 

 

Well, probably the plot of the next expansion right there. 

 

Anyways, I too was a bit miffed that Eothas did not get a silent alter like Woedica. Perhaps his alter was in the next room down stairs where Thaos retreated and destroyed the passages? Seems the most likely possbility for the set number of gods. I also wanted to have Magram's blessing, not Galawains, but then the huntsman's god is pretty cool on his own I suppose. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Venatio

[MReed]

I'm not sure that I understand the issue here:  You do realize that the constellations (that tell you which gods are available at which pedestals) are not static features of the room, but are instead magical projections that can change over time, right?  This is quite obvious in the game as when you initially enter the room there are no constellations visible (and, although I haven't tried it, I assume none of the pedestals are functional).  You have to take a crystal out of a chest and place it in the pedestal in the center of the room to "turn everything on".

 

The gods have clearly organized themselves into two coalitions (as shown by multiple constellations being in close proximity) and each coalition has elected a "spokesgod" (shown by the constellation that is closest to the pedestal) that you can interact with.  The other two gods are present if you pray at the pedestal (& they are active in the resulting dialog), but they aren't the leaders that make decisions for the coalitions.

 

Once you understand all of that, it should be obvious that:

 

1) If you had arrived at some other time, a different assortment of gods might be accessible.

2) All the gods are present except for Eothas, who (whether he is dead or not) is "unavailable for comment".

 

There are sufficient pedestals (although one is clearly broken, which seems likely to be the one nominally assigned to Woedica or the one for Eothas, although the game is silent on why one is broken) for all 12 gods to speak independently -- they just choose not to in this particular case.

 

Seems straightforward to me -- am I missing something?

[Venatio]

I'm not sure that I understand the issue here:  You do realize that the constellations (that tell you which gods are available at which pedestals) are not static features of the room, but are instead magical projections that can change over time, right?  This is quite obvious in the game as when you initially enter the room there are no constellations visible (and, although I haven't tried it, I assume none of the pedestals are functional).  You have to take a crystal out of a chest and place it in the pedestal in the center of the room to "turn everything on".

 

 

Oh right, I completely forgot. We don't know if Eothas would have gotten his own pedestal or if he would have grouped with another god like Berath. The reason Woedica got her own pedestal was because she never had permanent allies, hence her constellation would have been on it's own irregardless. 

Edited May 1, 2015 by Venatio

[Karkarov]

If that was so, then why have separate altars for each deity at all, instead of altars that you pray at, and pick your deity?

Like I said.... the altars aren't dedicated to any one god in the first place.  They are simply spread around the room so you can pray to the god who is closest to that altar and the position of the gods could change from day to day.  Also "why is there a penalty for the wrong prayer?"  Dude are you kidding?  If you are a guy named John do you get offended/weirded out if a person walks up to you and says "Hey Sally, hows it going babe?".  Yes you do.  It is the same thing.  Saying the prayer is like saying hello, saying hi to Abydon by saying Wael's prayer is like taking a piss on his front lawn.  They aren't going to like it.

[Hassat Hunter]

I dunno... when I played the game, a shrine to Eothas WAS there, just inactive since... obviously, he's been murdered.

 

Why do people still doubt that in this thread since the first 12 times people mentioned this ingame I went "OKAY I KNOW!" but they still had to mention it 30 times afterwards.

And then I come on these forums and people don't know it... seriously, are we playing the same game that drones this into your skull? (and yes, he is dead, the other gods confirmed it too, all the game confirms it).

[Chd2002442]

so forget about Eothas, I can understand why he might not be there but what about Ondra I wanted to pray to her, her constellation is there and shes right next to an alter but shes not an option?!?!? that's kinda dumb

[gkathellar]

so forget about Eothas, I can understand why he might not be there but what about Ondra I wanted to pray to her, her constellation is there and shes right next to an alter but shes not an option?!?!? that's kinda dumb

 

Because she's not a Glanfathan deity.

 

There are altars corresponding to every one of the patron gods of Eir Glanfath, with the other deities picking sides between those.

[jsaving]

 

 

We don't know if Eothas would have gotten his own pedestal or if he would have grouped with another god like Berath.  

 

 

Well, no two pedestals offer the same answer for what ought to be done to resolve the main quest line -- something the Pillars team appears to have done by design.  So if Eothas *did* have his own pedestal that you could interact with, then it would have to be because he had a different suggested course of action than those offered by the other deities, which seems unlikely.  And from an in-game point of view, the deities who share a pedestal all seem to have been natural allies, which doesn't appear to have been true for Eothas any more than it was for his Forgotten Realms analogue Lathander. 

 

There's also the issue of Eothas' current fate.  We know from the game that Waidwen claimed to be Eothas and was destroyed, after which time no one has seen or heard from Eothas.  This sure makes it *look* like Eothas is gone for good, something most of the characters and deities in the game seem to accept as true.  Yet there are questions raised in the game about whether Waidwen really was Eothas, whether Eothas' post-Godhammer silence might be motivated by something other than his being dead, and whether -- even if he really did die -- he might yet be somehow renewed (renewal being his main portfolio after all).  It could be the Pillars team didn't want to make a pedestal for Eothas simply because they didn't want to provide definitive answers to these questions.

Edited July 25, 2015 by jsaving