Comparing PoE to BG is unfair

[Gromnir]

 

You neither identified any errors, nor did I make any, nor did I even bother citing all the advantages of a single class thief over a multi-class one.

 

 

am trying to speak with a guy who is only gonna throw p00p. you ain't yet named one actual bg2 advantage.  high-level abilities don't count as they is ToB, and if all you got is traps you are still fail 'cause that is all the vanilla thief has.  the multi-class also has trap setting and either genuine weapons combat skills or spells.  maybe the multi-class is lagging 'cause it cannot max pick pocket as early as the vanilla thief?

 

*sigh*

 

this is so utter pointless.  you defy any attempts to make intelligent contact.  am not kidding.  UNDERpowered is necessarily a relative term. forget your self-refuting nonsense, but try and focus for just a sec.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

high-level abilities don't count as they is ToB,

Oh, I'm awfully sorry, but Gromnir does not get to set his own personal arbitrary parameters here. ToB is not a stand alone. It is BG2's expansion pack and the developers integrated it into the main game so as to make its class additions usable in Shadows of Amn. That being the case, they're relevant to the discussion, whether Gromnir likes it or not.

 

And the bottom line is that Single class thieves will get their HLAs a LOT sooner than multi-class thieves. And a vanilla thief with HLA's is more powerful than a Multi-class thief without them.

 

 

and if all you got is traps

That's NOT all 'we' got. That's just all we bothered citing, because we did not need to cite anything else. We did not need to cite, for example, the fact that a single class thief will be able to max all his other skills faster than multi-class thief. Or that a Single Class thief will get the higher XP rewards from trap disarms and lockpicking sooner than a multi-class thief.

 

But again, we do not need to do a comparison. Because comparisons (both favorable and unfavorable) do not change the fact that there's no such thing as Underpowered in BG2. BG2 is deliberately Monty Hall with its loot distribution. It guarantees Overpowered, game breaking characters regardless of class choice, thus allowing players to choose their classes based on, you know, their ROLE PLAYING desires, without having to worry about "trapping" themselves into a "sucky build".

Edited May 1, 2015 by Stun

[Hiro Protagonist II]

you ain't yet named one actual bg2 advantage.  high-level abilities don't count as they is ToB,

 

LMAO.

 

Tob is not BG2?

 

Then I guess this cover with the title Baldur's Gate II has nothing to do with BG2. There's no need to be obtuse Gromnir.

 

 

[Stun]

Oh, There's even more here than that. This discussion spawned when someone here spouted the standard "BG2 mages = the only class worth playing" schtick that we're all used to seeing. But if suddenly ToB doesn't count, then we need to re-assess that claim. Don't we. Without ToB, Mages don't get to memorize 9th level spells. That means.... No more spamming Timestop. Or Wish. Or Chain Contingency. No more Dragons Breath, or Comet, or Gate or Shapechange, or Improved Alracity. No more Dualing your Kensai at Level 13 and then reaching anything higher than 14th level as a mage (whoopee! You'll get one 7th level spell! congrats) No More Wild Mages.

 

He pulled that desperate forced-limitation out of his ass, and should be called out for it. Bioware fixed a *ton* of things in BG2 with Throne of Bhaal. They Literally turbo-charged the Thief Class with it - Made them the second most powerful class in the game. Gave them the ability to use their ToB skills in Athkatla. Gave them Time-stop Traps (so they can spam their backstabs) and Use Any Item (so they could BE spell casters). Made their Trap damage scale past 20th level (so they can insta-kill any enemy in the game). etc.

 

Doesn't count, my ass. What Gromnir means to say is that it doesn't count because it makes his "Thieves are underpowered!" claim look mind bogglingly absurd.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Stun

[Captain Shrek]

So Grominir is bull****ting again?

[majestic]

So I typed up this huge post regarding the ongoing discussion and decided to simply delete it and keep it short. Single class thieves in BG2 simply aren't worth it in the same manner as single classed clerics and druids aren't. Their short term benefits (and considering *when* you actually hit the SoA experience cap, that is REALLY short term, especially if you don't run around with a full party) they get amounts to less than a third of the game by gaining abilities the encounters there weren't even designed to handle - and it drops off once the appropriate multiclass reaches enough experience to enter HLA territory, which is also well before ToB that any fighter/thief ends up being much more powerful once it actually begins to matter.

 

Which is about the only metric that really matters when discussing relative power of classes. It doesn't really matter if your HLA-powered single class thief can trap himself through the Sahuagin city and throw fireballs with a wand because that portion of the game is easy even on insane anyway. No single worthwhile encounter falls into the time delta between a single and mutli classed thief getting access to their HLAs.

 

That's not to say that thieves aren't powerful in the context of the game, because really, like Stun said, every class can be powerful and those traps really rip enemies a new one, but with the way the 2nd Edition AD&D rules are set up in the IE games multiclassing thieves, clerics and druids is simply much better. It wouldn't be if you changed the XP distribution of the game or implemented the level caps for demihumans in the original rules, but it is what it is.

 

Playing to level 40 with a ruleset designed to cap out on level 20 wasn't exactly the best idea.

 

An argument could be crafted for the assassin kit, because its poison weapon ability can be used to break enemy AI scripts rendering powerful enemies blithering idiots that can't do anything for the duration of the ability, and unlike Blind (a 1st level mage spell) can't be resisted. In the end it still suffers from having a base THACO of 10, which is not really great, even if you pile enough gear on him.

 

edit:

 

Actually, I'd also argue that single class fighters aren't worth it as main character due to the immense boni you get from being mage or thief multi or dual classed. Hrm. Especially with ToB.

Edited May 1, 2015 by majestic

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Playing to level 40 with a ruleset designed to cap out on level 20 wasn't exactly the best idea.

 

God I wish people would go and play the game instead of making stuff up.

[majestic]

 

Playing to level 40 with a ruleset designed to cap out on level 20 wasn't exactly the best idea.

 

God I wish people would go and play the game instead of making stuff up.

 

 

The progression tables of BG2: ToB simply stop at level 20 except for adding a base amount of hit points according to AD&D rules (which they do starting at level 10, by the way) unless you patch them through some modification. Saving throws and THAC0 get frozen at 20. The difference between a level 20 and 40 character in terms of fighting power amounts to, at max, 60 hit points when being a fighter (obviously less for other classes) and whatever high level abilities you can get.

 

The noticeable exception being spellcasters whose spells/day tables were designed to go beyond level 20.

 

Sorry, what was your point again?

Edited May 1, 2015 by majestic

[Sephie]

 

 

Playing to level 40 with a ruleset designed to cap out on level 20 wasn't exactly the best idea.

 

God I wish people would go and play the game instead of making stuff up.

 

 

The progression tables of BG2: ToB simply stop at level 20 except for adding a base amount of hit points according to AD&D rules (which they do starting at level 10, by the way) unless you patch them through some modification. Saving throws and THAC0 get frozen at 20. The difference between a level 20 and 40 character in terms of fighting power amounts to, at max, 60 hit points when being a fighter (obviously less for other classes) and whatever high level abilities you can get.

 

The noticeable exception being spellcasters whose spells/day tables were designed to go beyond level 20.

 

Sorry, what was your point again?

 

 

And were more useful in the last battle than spellcasters. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

and whatever high level abilities you can get.

 

I like how you make this comment, 'whatever high level abilities you can get' as if it's an afterthought. As I said, go and play the game, then you might have an actual point.

[Doug]

 

and whatever high level abilities you can get.

 

I like how you make this comment, 'whatever high level abilities you can get' as if it's an afterthought. As I said, go and play the game, then you might have an actual point.

 

 

Better idea....Go argue about BG in the BG forum.

[FlintlockJazz]

Everyone stop bitching before I make you all my bitches!  You are disturbing my demeanour!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Better idea....Go argue about BG in the BG forum.

 

No, the IE games discussion/debates/arguments has been going on for the last two years. We're not stopping now.

[Ohioastro]

It's become clear to me that there is a cohort that is utterly irrational on the subject of Baldurs Gate.  It can do no wrong at all.  It's surreal.

[SKull]

 

 

 

 

What many here haven't realised is that they judge PoE harshly and are not open-minded.

Why is it so incomprehensible to you that some people find the game just average, and other people find it terrible? Kind of like, oh let me just pick some random game out of thin air here... how about Baldur's Gate? Or Icewind Dale? Yeah, there are people that don't like some of the classics on which this game draws its inspiration. Is it really, honestly so hard to grasp that some people find flaws in this game - more than they feel can be fixed to make it a great game?

 

What are those people doing in these forums ? Trolling ? The forums are for people who (more or less) like the game, care about its future, want to see improvements and discuss about all that.

 

 

Even if you've paid 25 or more bucks to back the game, bitching in the forums will not get you anywhere or make you a better person.

 

 

Oh give me a break! Customer feedback is what these forums are for unless they want to be totally useless. If that feedback is negative the problem lies with the game, not with the unsatisfied customers.

[Ohioastro]

"a "low magicish" campaign"

 

Except PE isn't low magiic(ish). Not even close. It's way more high magic than BG1. And, I'm sure the sequel will be even more high magic than BG2 if it goes on its course.

 

 

This was all an attempt for 'balance'. Of coruse, spellcasters are still more dangerous than non spellcasters in PE.   So, even the 'balancing attempt' failed.

 

You're not understanding what they mean.  There is a difference between King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and Game of Thrones.  In that sense PoE is low fantasy, meaning that there are gritty undertones, as opposed to cotton candy like the Faerun world setting.

 

And asserting that something has failed doesn't make it so.  The boards were flooded with complaints about how weak wizards are; a lot of the usual suspects complain about priests; and a lot of the usual suspects claim that rogues are God mode.  That isn't the D&D mold at all.

 

It would help the credibility of the relentless critics if they could at least keep their attacks on the game straight.

[Ohioastro]

 

 

 

 

What many here haven't realised is that they judge PoE harshly and are not open-minded.

Why is it so incomprehensible to you that some people find the game just average, and other people find it terrible? Kind of like, oh let me just pick some random game out of thin air here... how about Baldur's Gate? Or Icewind Dale? Yeah, there are people that don't like some of the classics on which this game draws its inspiration. Is it really, honestly so hard to grasp that some people find flaws in this game - more than they feel can be fixed to make it a great game?

 

What are those people doing in these forums ? Trolling ? The forums are for people who (more or less) like the game, care about its future, want to see improvements and discuss about all that.

 

 

Even if you've paid 25 or more bucks to back the game, bitching in the forums will not get you anywhere or make you a better person.

 

 

Oh give me a break! Customer feedback is what these forums are for unless they want to be totally useless. If that feedback is negative the problem lies with the game, not with the unsatisfied customers.

 

 

 

Nonsense.  There is a brand of toxic people whose entire purpose is to run things down.  They hate every aspect of a game, they mock and attack anyone who likes it, and they flood boards with walls of negativity.  Not all criticism is constructive or right.  And whenever they're called on their approach they resort to some BS claim about how they're just trying to make the game better.

 

The people who obviously hate this game so much want it to fail, they want to shut down anyone who disagrees with them, and the negative feedback can be nothing more than misguided sour grapes.

[majestic]

 

and whatever high level abilities you can get.

 

I like how you make this comment, 'whatever high level abilities you can get' as if it's an afterthought. As I said, go and play the game, then you might have an actual point.

 

 

If you dual class a fighter at level 13 (ideally kensai since UAI removes the armor restriction, if we're cheesing let's do it properly) to thief  you miss out on having one single potential thief HLA in exchange for more attacks/round, more hitpoints, better THAC0, better saves and the ability to actually make use of those fine weapons you find.

 

So yes, sorry, it is nothing but an afterthought. There's only one possible exception - and that is if you played SoA without ToB installed and were stuck with the level cap there, in which case it's impossible to reach ToB's level cap with the expansion alone, leaving you a bunch of traps short.

Edited May 1, 2015 by majestic

[Sephie]

 

 

 

 

What many here haven't realised is that they judge PoE harshly and are not open-minded.

Why is it so incomprehensible to you that some people find the game just average, and other people find it terrible? Kind of like, oh let me just pick some random game out of thin air here... how about Baldur's Gate? Or Icewind Dale? Yeah, there are people that don't like some of the classics on which this game draws its inspiration. Is it really, honestly so hard to grasp that some people find flaws in this game - more than they feel can be fixed to make it a great game?

 

What are those people doing in these forums ? Trolling ? The forums are for people who (more or less) like the game, care about its future, want to see improvements and discuss about all that.

 

 

Even if you've paid 25 or more bucks to back the game, bitching in the forums will not get you anywhere or make you a better person.

 

 

Oh give me a break! Customer feedback is what these forums are for unless they want to be totally useless. If that feedback is negative the problem lies with the game, not with the unsatisfied customers.

 

 

 

Nonsense.  There is a brand of toxic people whose entire purpose is to run things down.  They hate every aspect of a game, they mock and attack anyone who likes it, and they flood boards with walls of negativity.  Not all criticism is constructive or right.  And whenever they're called on their approach they resort to some BS claim about how they're just trying to make the game better.

 

The people who obviously hate this game so much want it to fail, they want to shut down anyone who disagrees with them, and the negative feedback can be nothing more than misguided sour grapes.

 

 

This game is already a success, so you can't make it fail.

 

What we want when we compare it to Baldur's Gate 2 is to make the devs notice and make the sequel more like it than not. It IS to make it better.

 

BG2 is the best, it doesn't bring down PoE if it didn't manage to surpass it. But we can see the potential and that's why we try to make the sequel become the best. 

 

If we told them "wow great job, keep it up" all the time then the sequel would be one of the same. 

[Ohioastro]

I agree that saying that it's perfect isn't helpful.  But, honest to God, just running it down without noticing anything positive about the design achieves absolutely nothing.  And the game would not have been so well received by so many people, reviewers and vets, if there was nothing positive about it.

 

I want it to be its own thing, and I don't want it to be mechanically the same as BG2.  I would like the epic feel and some aspects of how BG2 played.

[Ink Blot]

I agree that saying that it's perfect isn't helpful.  But, honest to God, just running it down without noticing anything positive about the design achieves absolutely nothing.

Nor does praising it as the best game ever made. There's a bell curve of people out there, on the extreme ends of which are the, as you say, 'toxic ones that run it down' , and on the other end are the ones that think it's flawless. Unfortunately the two sides seem to think whoever shouts the loudest at those who dwell in between will win.

[Gromnir]

 

you ain't yet named one actual bg2 advantage.  high-level abilities don't count as they is ToB,

 

LMAO.

 

Tob is not BG2?

 

Then I guess this cover with the title Baldur's Gate II has nothing to do with BG2. There's no need to be obtuse Gromnir.

 

 

 

 

its not.  poe don't have the benefit of an expansion yet either you clown.  ToB were a separate offering with a separate price tag.  

 

we mentioned how utter unfair and stoopid it is to compare poe to bg2, how obsidian even mentioned that they wouldn't manage all that bg2  did(a game which were the 6th iteration o' the ie games?) and you go even further by using the improvements included in an expansion of bg2 to make comparisons?

 

you and stun is either simple hypocrites or willful obtuse.  choose.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 1, 2015 by Gromnir

[Grinch]

New guy here. Just want to say one thing. I think comparing PoE to BG would be a more fair comparison. Both games are/were the first in their series. BG2 is more of a refined BG. One thing PoE isn't right now is refined. Neither was BG when it first released.

 

Honestly I don't really care for PoE all that much but I still think it's unfair to compare it to BG2. The reason I don't like PoE is because it really doesn't do anything that we haven't already seen. This type of game was big 15 years ago. I'm looking for something new and different. I don't want or need a 'spiritual successor' to BG or IWD.  PoE reminds me of something a modder might create if they had access to the toolset. Three times I've tried to play this game and never got past Gilded Vale before quitting. The whole time I was playing I kept thinking to myself what the game would look like in the NWN or NWN2 toolset. Don't want to rain on anybody's parade but I just don't like this game. I'll wait for more patches and give it another chance but I doubt it will change my mind. I just can't go back to what games were like 15 years ago.

[Cronstintein]

So you want a more modern take... make it a roguelike? (Trial of Iron mode    )

[Volourn]

"In that sense PoE is low fantasy, meaning that there are gritty undertones, as opposed to cotton candy like the Faerun world setting."

 

That's not what low fantasy is. Low fantasy is  less magic, less mystical. A low fantasy would be a game set in a setting where magic isn't huge or is in background.  Teh Faerun world setting is no less 'gritty' than PE.  PE is nowhere near gritty. You should actually do research on FR/Faerun before you continue your ignorant babble.

 

 

"It would help the credibility of the relentless critics if they could at least keep their attacks on the game straight."

\

Not every critic dislikes the game for the same reasons. Some may hate the combat somemay hate the story. Just like people who like the game may like it for different reasons. OMG! People can like/dislike the same game for different reasons.

 

btw, I like the game. I'm not a hater. OMG! You can like a game and still criticize it. besides, I don't think the fact that PE is high fantasy is a negative anyways. High Fantasy is  friggin' awesome.

\

 

"walls of negativity."

 

SJW detected.

 

 

"walls of negativity."

 

TRIGGERED!

 

 

"brand of toxic people"

 

SJW detected.

 

 

"brand of toxic people"

 

TRIGGERED.

 

 

"Nonsense.  There is a brand of toxic people whose entire purpose is to run things down.  They hate every aspect of a game, they mock and attack anyone who likes it, and they flood boards with walls of negativity.  Not all criticism is constructive or right.  And whenever they're called on their approach they resort to some BS claim about how they're just trying to make the game better.

 

The people who obviously hate this game so much want it to fail, they want to shut down anyone who disagrees with them, and the negative feedback can be nothing more than misguided sour grapes."