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its not.  poe don't have the benefit of an expansion yet either you clown.  ToB were a separate offering with a separate price tag.  

 

we mentioned how utter unfair and stoopid it is to compare poe to bg2, how obsidian even mentioned that they wouldn't manage all that bg2  did(a game which were the 6th iteration o' the ie games?) and you go even further by using the improvements included in an expansion of bg2 to make comparisons?

 

you and stun is either simple hypocrites or willful obtuse.  choose.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Oh Gromnir. Dodging, weaving, evading, shifting the goal posts. Try as you might to say ToB is not BG2, doesn't mean it is. BG2 is both SoA and ToB.

 

You've been shown to be incorrect on these forums many times and backpedalling won't work. Perhaps you need to stop being obtuse and accept facts.

 

*snort*

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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its not.  poe don't have the benefit of an expansion yet either you clown.  ToB were a separate offering with a separate price tag.  

 

we mentioned how utter unfair and stoopid it is to compare poe to bg2, how obsidian even mentioned that they wouldn't manage all that bg2  did(a game which were the 6th iteration o' the ie games?) and you go even further by using the improvements included in an expansion of bg2 to make comparisons?

 

you and stun is either simple hypocrites or willful obtuse.  choose.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Oh Gromnir. Dodging, weaving, evading, shifting the goal posts. Try as you might to say ToB is not BG2, doesn't mean it is. BG2 is both SoA and ToB.

 

You've been shown to be incorrect on these forums many times and backpedalling won't work. Perhaps you need to stop being obtuse and accept facts.

 

*snort*

 

*chuckle*

 

yeah, have been wrong many times.  not this time.  bg2 did not have high level abilities.  high level abilities were a ToB feature.  again, for the THOUSANDTH time, comparing bg2 to poe is manifestly unfair, but to compare poe to bg2 with ToB enhancements is beyond the pale.  

 

oh, and whatever Gromnir's faults, we is dogged consistent.  review and see that from the first instance stun brought up ridiculous ToB advantages o' the vanilla thief, we criticized.  and as noted already, we are the guy who has been calling the comparison to bg2 unfair for years... and for all the same freaking reasons.  wrong?  sure, we been wrong before, but "backpedaling" is one o' the more pathetic complaints o' Gromnir... evar. 

 

think.  before hitting the post button, stop and think.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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*chuckle*

 

yeah, have been wrong many times.  not this time.  bg2 did not have high level abilities.  high level abilities were a ToB feature.  again, for the THOUSANDTH time, comparing bg2 to poe is manifestly unfair, but to compare poe to bg2 with ToB enhancements is beyond the pale.  

 

oh, and whatever Gromnir's faults, we is dogged consistent.  review and see that from the first instance stun brought up ridiculous ToB advantages o' the vanilla thief, we criticized.  and as noted already, we are the guy who has been calling the comparison to bg2 unfair for years... and for all the same freaking reasons.  wrong?  sure, we been wrong before, but "backpedaling" is one o' the more pathetic complaints o' Gromnir... evar. 

 

think.  before hitting the post button, stop and think.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No Gromnir, BG2 did have high level abilities. BG2 is both SoA and ToB. Also, can you show me where I compared PoE to BG2? No? That's right you can't. A complete manifest error of fact on your part.

 

Read, comprehend, digest, and if you're still having trouble, then read, comprehend, digest again and perhaps asking someone like your school teacher if you're comprehension skills are lacking before hitting that post button.

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*chuckle*

 

yeah, have been wrong many times.  not this time.  bg2 did not have high level abilities.  high level abilities were a ToB feature.  again, for the THOUSANDTH time, comparing bg2 to poe is manifestly unfair, but to compare poe to bg2 with ToB enhancements is beyond the pale.  

 

oh, and whatever Gromnir's faults, we is dogged consistent.  review and see that from the first instance stun brought up ridiculous ToB advantages o' the vanilla thief, we criticized.  and as noted already, we are the guy who has been calling the comparison to bg2 unfair for years... and for all the same freaking reasons.  wrong?  sure, we been wrong before, but "backpedaling" is one o' the more pathetic complaints o' Gromnir... evar. 

 

think.  before hitting the post button, stop and think.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No Gromnir, BG2 did have high level abilities. BG2 is both SoA and ToB. Also, can you show me where I compared PoE to BG2? No? That's right you can't. A complete manifest error of fact on your part.

 

 

*groan*

 

your observation that bg2 seeming must needs be discussed with tob enhancements came in response to a Gromnir post wherein we were mentioning that it were unfair to compare poe to bg2 with such enhancements.  you cannot be this obtuse.  claim that you didn't actual compare is so complete irrelevant given the context o' your "contribution" to the thread.

 

oh, and your observation that "BG2 is both SoA and ToB" is not any kinda a freaking argument.  that you believe it is shows why we got so many problems discussing things rational with you and stun.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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*groan*

 

your observation that bg2 seeming must needs be discussed with tob enhancements came in response to a Gromnir post wherein we were mentioning that it were unfair to compare poe to bg2 with such enhancements.  you cannot be this obtuse.  claim that you didn't actual compare is so complete irrelevant given the context o' your "contribution" to the thread.

 

oh, and your observation that "BG2 is both SoA and ToB" is not any kinda a freaking argument.  that you believe it is shows why we got so many problems discussing things rational with you and stun.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No.

 

Seriously, are you being obtuse on purpose? It's the many foibles you have that you should work on and self improvement will go a long way.

 

My observation was that you said ToB was not BG2. That was all. It wasn't about comparing BG2 with PoE. I know that's a foreign concept for you to understand, but with time and a lot of hand holding, guidance and education, I'm sure I can help you understand these basic fundamental principles.

 

Tis funny, seeing Gromnir talk round in circles on his playground roundabout. Maybe Gromnir continues his circular argument. Maybe Gromnir will get dizzy and eventually get off the roundabout. We'll see.

 

*chuckle*

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Gromnir is right, you cant compare PoE with BG2+ToB. And its also wrong to compare BG1+TotSc with PoE. To be honest : The best parts of my BG1 playthroughs are the TotSc Stuff. BG1 is a very mediocre RPG and its only a "RPG Legend" because of BG2. 

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"Gromnir is right, you cant compare PoE with BG2+ToB. And its also wrong to compare BG1+TotSc with PoE"

 

Yes, you can. As long as you are honest when comparing them and understand the times and situations of when both games were made.

 

For example, I could say that PE's characters have more dialogue and are 'deeper' (but not enccessarily more interesting) than BG's but I would understand that makes sense since when BG1 was made the NPCs were meant to be nothing more than  extra bodies with one or two 'quirks' to 'hook' the player.

 

Expectations for joinable npcs has advanced and become way more sophisticated as the years have gone by.

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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*groan*

 

your observation that bg2 seeming must needs be discussed with tob enhancements came in response to a Gromnir post wherein we were mentioning that it were unfair to compare poe to bg2 with such enhancements.  you cannot be this obtuse.  claim that you didn't actual compare is so complete irrelevant given the context o' your "contribution" to the thread.

 

oh, and your observation that "BG2 is both SoA and ToB" is not any kinda a freaking argument.  that you believe it is shows why we got so many problems discussing things rational with you and stun.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

No.

 

Seriously, are you being obtuse on purpose? It's the many foibles you have that you should work on and self improvement will go a long way.

 

My observation was that you said ToB was not BG2. That was all. It wasn't about comparing BG2 with PoE. I know that's a foreign concept for you to understand, but with time and a lot of hand holding, guidance and education, I'm sure I can help you understand these basic fundamental principles.

 

Tis funny, seeing Gromnir talk round in circles on his playground roundabout. Maybe Gromnir continues his circular argument. Maybe Gromnir will get dizzy and eventually get off the roundabout. We'll see.

 

*chuckle*

 

you really don't see the hypocrisy?  

 

oh, and you are confusing repetitive with circular.  am admitting we is repetitive.  hiro repeats, so is genuine nothing for us to add save repetition.  

 

and again, as repetition, your observation that bg2 is bg2 + tob is not genuine meaningful and it ain't any kinda argument.  is surely not relevant.  we noted (above... won't repeat that again) why adding tob enhancements to bg2 in the context o' a bg2 v. poe comparison is manifestly unfair, but you are so utter resistant to reason that you continue to ignore.  

 

oh and since we is reduced to following hiro's limited reasoning

 

Baldurs-Gate-2+TOB.jpg

 

even a little kid can tell that the left is different from the right.  is not the same.  the second offering made changes, often significant to the first.  share some words o' same name is also hardly meaningful.

20121025_175743.jpg

 

that is a 1987 buick regal

 

Gromnir owns one o' these:

 

1987BuickGNX_01_700.jpg

 

both is 1987 buick regals.  performance is very different in spite o' having same words in name.  suggest that both is same is foolish.  

 

perhaps pictures is what hiro needs?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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your observation that bg2 seeming must needs be discussed with tob enhancements came in response to a Gromnir post wherein we were mentioning that it were unfair to compare poe to bg2 with such enhancements.

Oh no it didn't. It came in response to the discussion me and you were having about Thieves vs. Fighter-Thieves in BG2. PoE wasn't part of that discussion. At all.
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you really don't see the hypocrisy?  

 

oh, and you are confusing repetitive with circular.  am admitting we is repetitive.  hiro repeats, so is genuine nothing for us to add save repetition.  

 

and again, as repetition, your observation that bg2 is bg2 + tob is not genuine meaningful and it ain't any kinda argument.  is surely not relevant.  we noted (above... won't repeat that again) why adding tob enhancements to bg2 in the context o' a bg2 v. poe comparison is manifestly unfair, but you are so utter resistant to reason that you continue to ignore.  

 

oh and since we is reduced to following hiro's limited reasoning

 

Baldurs-Gate-2+TOB.jpg

 

even a little kid can tell that the left is different from the right.  is not the same.  the second offering made changes, often significant to the first.  share some words o' same name is also hardly meaningful.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You can't see the hypocrisy of what you're saying?

 

And you're being both circular and repetitive. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Also even a little kid can tell that BG2 incorporates both SoA and ToB. Both pictures have Baldur's Gate II in the title. But you don't understand that concept. Thanks for showing pictures that confirm this.

 

I can also do pictures and even pie charts.

 

TF89wvO.jpg

 

*chuckle*

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"And you're being both circular and repetitive. Thanks for clearing that up."

 

again with you making statements w/o any kinda support.  

 

this is ridiculous.  what is the point you were/are even trying to make?

 

did bg2 include have high-level abilities?  no, that were an enhancement added in the ToB expansion.  ToB were an optional expansion pack for bg2.  could one play ToB without bg2?  no?  could one play bg2 without ToB? yes. when Gromnir observed that the high level abilities were a ToB enhancement and not part o' the original bg2 offering, we were accurate.   your complete irrelevant observation adds noting and ain't even true.   given the context o' the discussion comparing bg2 to poe, your observation is actual more suspect. 

 

it is our perhaps futile belief that you will eventual reach understanding, even if you refuse to admit.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Nonsense.  There is a brand of toxic people whose entire purpose is to run things down.  They hate every aspect of a game, they mock and attack anyone who likes it, and they flood boards with walls of negativity.  Not all criticism is constructive or right.  And whenever they're called on their approach they resort to some BS claim about how they're just trying to make the game better.

 

The people who obviously hate this game so much want it to fail, they want to shut down anyone who disagrees with them, and the negative feedback can be nothing more than misguided sour grapes.

Find me a single person on these boards that fits that bill. One. I know of one, and only one, but with your extensive experience, you should have no problem making a list.


t50aJUd.jpg

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your vanilla thief were underpowered though. sooo...

 

HA! Good Fun!

My vanilla thief was insanely overpowered in Bg2. Didn't have to fight Irenicus. Literally didn't have to fight him because he died from my traps instantly. Twice. First at the tree of life, then again in Hell.

 

Why would anyone see thieves as underpowered in BG2 when you can effortlessly break the game with them? It boggles the mind.

Edited by Stun
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I see gromnir is still arguing about "back in the bis board days this were the general consensus and it is the holy word"

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"And you're being both circular and repetitive. Thanks for clearing that up."

 

again with you making statements w/o any kinda support.  

 

this is ridiculous.  what is the point you were/are even trying to make?

 

did bg2 include have high-level abilities?  no, that were an enhancement added in the ToB expansion.  ToB were an optional expansion pack for bg2.  could one play ToB without bg2?  no?  could one play bg2 without ToB? yes. when Gromnir observed that the high level abilities were a ToB enhancement and not part o' the original bg2 offering, we were accurate.   your complete irrelevant observation adds noting and ain't even true.   given the context o' the discussion comparing bg2 to poe, your observation is actual more suspect. 

 

it is our perhaps futile belief that you will eventual reach understanding, even if you refuse to admit.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Did bg2 include have high-level abilities? Yes, it did.

 

Given the context that I was pointing out that ToB is part of BG2, then not only your argument is suspect, but is intellectually dishonest. Hiro was accurate with his observations and factual. Gromnir is being obtuse, evasive, circular, repetitive as well as being dishonest.

 

Perhaps in future Gromnir can accept facts, but at this stage Gromnir can't. Until that day, Gromnir is still on his playground roundabout. One day, you might join the rest of humanity in the concept known as reality.

 

*snort*

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I see gromnir is still arguing about "back in the bis board days this were the general consensus and it is the holy word"

*sigh*

 

specify.

 

doesn't matter though as you mischaracterize.  we typical bring up boardie consensus only to show how reactive the developers is.  boardies wanted more durlag's tower and less wilderness exploration.  not believe us?  ask vol or amentep or others.  bioware were reactive.  well, fast-forward to poe development and we saw obsidian specific address how the co6 and black isle boardies complained that there weren't enough exploration in bg2.  so, obsidian specific observed that they would attempt a middle ground.

 

Gromnir has, many times, complained that the biggest mistake obsidian made in development were listening too much to fans.  try and find happy medium is exact where we thinks most obsidian shortfalls arose, so you are clear misrepresenting Gromnir if you believe we is pulling a richard o' gloucester

 

And thus I clothe my naked villainy
With odd old ends stolen out of Holy Writ,
And seem a saint when most I play the devil.
 
is that what you is thinking?  
 
 
is no different now than in the past: we, the fans, is idiots.  particular taken as a whole, we is irrational and self-contradictory and impossible to please.
 
sensuki didn't pay attention?  *snort* no surprise.
 
edit for clarification:  am believing that listening to fans is useful to developers.  fan feedback can be helpful and may even be essential.  what am opposed to is compromise.  the middle-ground and half-baked solutions meant to appease, mollify and placate is doomed.  is our belief that compromise solutions in game development do not end up with all folks being satisfied but rather we see everybody being mild dissatisfied.  is ok when not everybody likes you.
 
HA! Good Fun!
 
ps for hiro, here is your homework: do a clean install o' bg2.  don't add fan mods or expansions.  ask self: "do i have bg2 loaded on my computer?"  is answer yes or no?  next, look for high level abilities in your pristine bg2 installation.  take your time.  we can wait. 
Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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LOL

 

*snort*

 

*groan*

 

Ha! Good Fun!

complete off-topic, but "LOL" makes you seem far more like vol than Gromnir.  

 

roofles?

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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ToB were an optional expansion pack for bg2.  HA! Good Fun!

Emphasis on "were".

 

You are indeed arguing, for no valid reason whatsoever, in strictly past tense, while no one else here is. Because Right now, here in 2015, you'll be hard pressed to find a copy of BG2 for sale without throne of Bhaal attached to it. GoG and Steam only sell BG2 bundled with Throne of Bhaal. And the Enhanced Edition of BG2 includes Throne of Bhaal.

 

So when a discussion about BG2's classes occurs, on these forums, it is a GIVEN, that we are including all of BG2, not just Shadows of Amn.

Edited by Stun
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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am not sure what your point is,

I'm not surprised. Have you ever passed up an opportunity to deliberately miss a point?
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am not sure what your point is,

I'm not surprised. Have you ever passed up an opportunity to deliberately miss a point?

 

again with the hypocrisy.  

 

your claim that time has transformed bg2 from the original game to bg2 + ToB is not presenting a point, even if you believe it does.  we get what you were trying to say, but that don't mean you had/have a point.  past  and present not help you.  is no sherman and mr. peabody scenario adventure needed to recognize that bg2 and ToB were separate releases.  

 

also, and again, poe ain't had an expansion.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am trying to help you to reach understanding without needing to spell everything out.  even so, it may be time to throw in the towel... again.  the relevance o' noting tob v. bg2 is not the pointless argument over definition in which you and hiro find yourselves mired.  observe that a vanilla thief were UNDERpowered and inferior to  multi or duals is magnified by your identification o' tob high level abilities. how many ie games were there before tob?  you needs retreat to high level abilities of the Expansion o' baldur's gate 2 as a way to somehow salvage the class and make it useful from underdark/post underdark forward did not help your position regarding vanilla thieves. 

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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"My vanilla thief was insanely overpowered in Bg2. Didn't have to fight Irenicus. Literally didn't have to fight him because he died from my traps instantly. Twice. First at the tree of life, then again in Hell.

Why would anyone see thieves as underpowered in BG2 when you can effortlessly break the game with them? It boggles the mind."

 

My thief had an ac of around -20ish, was able to use 9th level scrolls, had a thaco in the minuses, was capable of doing mondo damage, etc., etc. Weak? I think not.

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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am not sure what your point is, but we were not pressed particular hard

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=baldur%27s+gate+shadows+of+amn&tbm=shop

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

*groan*

 

Do you even check what you link to? I see a lot of complete collections but also ToB on its own!

 

*chuckle*

 

ABIJcmk.jpg

 

 

Of course Gromnir's worst enemy is himself.

 

*snort*

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bizarre.  

 

stun noted that it were possible to buy bundles that included ToB.  lord knows we never disagreed that you could buy ToB in bundles.  the soooooo... yet another pointless observation from hiro?  4 in 1 collection?  well gosh, that means that they is selling you four Different titles.  heck, you included a bundle with totsc.  does that mean bg2 = bg2, tob, bg1 and totsc? to be a collection requires more than one, eh?  you funny. 

 

stun said we would be hard pressed to buy a solitary bg2 product and within a couple minutes we found many examples o' bg2 solo products.   yutz.

 

you are hopeless.  

 

and again, the attempt to bundle a definition as well as the multiple products fails to have a relevant point.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

  • Like 1

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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