Steam now has Paywall mods

[mute688]

 

I still think in principle the ability to sell mods isn't a bad idea.

 

The idea is not bad, but the implementation and execution was goddamn terrible. But I think like many others, for mods, much better solution would be donation based workshop.

 

 

If Valve were genuine regarding this being about improving the quality and number of mods, and not about revenue, I'd be more inclined to believe them if they implemented something like a Dev Workshop where modders selected for releasing quality mods could be tutored by developers from various studios who enter into some sort of agreement with Valve.  They could set up forums accessible only to those selected for the workshop.  Mods developed with the aid of dev tutors could then be sold on Steam with a revenue split between modder and studio.

[WDeranged]

Responses from /v/ on 8chan: 

 

http://i.imgur.com/1hgX5Ad.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PiZeXK0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oB6aEyh.jpg

 

Responses from /v/ on 4chan:

http://i.imgur.com/WWdyud1.png

 

Sounds similar to the revolutionary rhetoric over on the Bethsoft forums...you'd think they just freed a third world country from the yoke of a tyrant.

[Lexx]

I wouldn't mind paying for top quality mods, but the simple truth is, most mods are shait. Making a good mod usually is hard work and requires a lot time. Also, paying $2 for a damn sword is at least as bad as horse armor.

[Rosbjerg]

That's a point not many modders would want to hear though, that their products (and thereby time spend) is essentially worthless. But it is however the truth for the vast majority of mods. I mean sure, 25c or something I could live with that. Getting a 100 or so mods for 5$ seems about right for their worth. And then paying ~5$ for the one or 2 actually well made, well thought out and well executed mods, with support and thought behind it.

 

If they want to make money off creative content they should publish games on the Google Play or iMarket (or whatever it's called).. People charge 5$ for next to nothing there and get away with it.

 

And I say this as someone who has modded and spend a month or so on a medium sized one I made.. But I also know that it's worthless, it was done for my own fun and it was..

[Gorgon]

Playing Skyrim with 50-100 mods is pretty common. That experience would be right around 1000-1200 moneys with the envisaged workshop pricing. 

 

Just not feasible. 

[Rosbjerg]

And that's really also a big issue - I mean Skyrim's modding scene got famous precisely because people downloaded the mods like crazy, if you had to pay 3 dollars a pop.. You'd never download more than 4, how is that encouraging the model?

[Magnum Opus]

If paid mods are the new reality, then all it really means is that I'm going to be looking to Bethesda themselves for all of those things for which I used to go to the modding communities.  Bug fixes to keep major quest lines flowing, a user interface that doesn't make me want to quit out of sheer frustration because I'm only using two buttons on my keyboard to navigate my way though at least five nested menus every time I bring up a character sheet, little things like that.

 

Am personally hoping they're up to the task.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Magnum Opus

[Osvir]

I honestly think it's a fair deal. Anyone who puts in a lot of effort into their work deserves to get paid, imo. As long as it is worthwhile for the Players, the Customers. Some of the mods for Skyrim is merely cosmetics, some simple fixes. Should that cost $5 or $3? Nah, I don't think so, in my honest opinion. But there are a couple of mods that deserve to be nearly called DLC.

Lots of the modders started when they were younger, now they're older and the reality of the world faces them. Many of them probably wondering if they're ever going to get a job in game development or getting hired by a game company/studio.

Modders put down an immense amount of work (at least on those big mods). I think that if Mods would be paid, then they would get better quality, and better compability and better responsibility. Lots of modders would also drop off because they wouldn't be able to handle the pressure (a lot more pressure), but some stars would shine and probably manage and handle it better than most, and then there'd be an "Elite" Modder group that lives off of it, and an "Amateur" Modder group below it doing it for hobby or whatever.

Kind of League of Legends. More people wanting to reach the top, because that's where the money is, but at the same time way more people in the bottom. Meaning: Way more mods, incoming, soon.

There's tons of people out there, and I'm sure that many see the change happening and probably working on something quality and high-standard at this very point. Opportunists.

*shrug* I think we'll see in the following months what will happen.

[Gorgon]

You pay the premium for the quality assurance that comes with a AAA release. You are paying for something that took a lot of man hourse to complete. The question is what will you pay for something with no quality assurance. 

 

I dunno, for my part id probably say the answer is nothing, not because they don't deserve it but because I'm not willing to pass that milestone. If I'm fiddling around with mods and I don't know that at least all it's going to cost me is my time, well, then I'd probably be doing something else. 

[Gorgon]

Man hourse ?

 

[Nonek]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aavBAplp5A

[Bryy]

I'm a bit annoyed that they caved so quickly. I'm not entirely done being angry.

They didn't cave, they are just figuring out how to do it without people causing a fuss.

 

This is just what Valve does. They will get their way. Remember when everyone hated the idea of "rewarding long-time gamers"? But then TF2 went free and nobody seemed to notice that the people that bought TF2 were given way better ****? And now for a completely negative example:

 

Remember when Valve said "**** it" to indie games but "gave us" Greenlight? Man, if we all didn't have dat Valve NDA, you can bet your butt that I and others would be trashing Greenlight way more hardcore than simply posting images of the backend on Twitter.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Bryy

[Blarghagh]

Greenlight is a disaster not just for indie devs but the consumer as well. It's the way that awful **** that was thrown together with blatantly stolen art assets and music gets onto Steam. Steam used to be a place where you would get quality. Not anymore. Steam no longer cares about their reputation. Everybody already has a massive game library there - nobody's going to abandon it if they **** up.

[Bartimaeus]

This is just what Valve does. They will get their way. Remember when everyone hated the idea of "rewarding long-time gamers"? But then TF2 went free and nobody seemed to notice that the people that bought TF2 were given way better ****?

 

 

Could you expound upon this? Back when I actually played, the complaint was that the people who BOUGHT the game were being shafted, not that new players were.

[Bryy]

Greenlight is a disaster not just for indie devs but the consumer as well. It's the way that awful **** that was thrown together with blatantly stolen art assets and music gets onto Steam. 

It's only going to get worse when Source 2 comes out.

 

They have a total of two people working on GL.

 

 

This is just what Valve does. They will get their way. Remember when everyone hated the idea of "rewarding long-time gamers"? But then TF2 went free and nobody seemed to notice that the people that bought TF2 were given way better ****?

 

 

Could you expound upon this? Back when I actually played, the complaint was that the people who BOUGHT the game were being shafted, not that new players were.

 

More backpack space, better drops. 

[Bartimaeus]

I don't recall the better drops bit - perhaps because drops have always been relatively worthless regardless, so I'm not particularly concerned - but in regards to backpack space...yeah...so spend the $1 or whatever that it took to unbecome a "free" account.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Nonek]

Personally this whole situation has persuaded me to donate more to mods, but then again I usually only download large mods for old games, and frankly they are often worth the price of the game on GOG in my opinion.

[213374U]

I honestly think it's a fair deal. Anyone who puts in a lot of effort into their work deserves to get paid, imo.

 

[...]

Modders put down an immense amount of work (at least on those big mods). I think that if Mods would be paid, then they would get better quality, and better compability and better responsibility. Lots of modders would also drop off because they wouldn't be able to handle the pressure (a lot more pressure), but some stars would shine and probably manage and handle it better than most, and then there'd be an "Elite" Modder group that lives off of it, and an "Amateur" Modder group below it doing it for hobby or whatever.

 

Kind of League of Legends. More people wanting to reach the top, because that's where the money is, but at the same time way more people in the bottom. Meaning: Way more mods, incoming, soon.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

See, this whole debate is rooted on statements and assumptions that at first sound good, but don't really hold up to scrutiny. Let's talk about "work".

 

Should people get paid for their work? Well, yeah. I'm a worker, and I sure like getting paid. Problem is when some marketing or finance genius (read: good-for-nothing parasite) comes up with a great idea to turn random **** into a commercial transaction. For instance, I like trying new recipes, and I treat my friends when they come over. Should I start charging* them because "I deserve to get paid for my work"? I also offer free advice to clueless newbies at the gym now that I no longer work as a PT. Should I charge for each and every pointer, every spotted exercise? Because, you know, "I deserve to get paid for my work". I also like to open doors for old ladies and even help them with their bags sometimes. I guess I should charge for that too, because I should get paid yadda yadda. And don't anyone dare say it's not work. I just do that **** because I enjoy doing it, I believe I should do it, or simply because I ****ing feel like doing it, not because I hope to receive monetary compensation.

 

I like the LoL simile, and I'm going to extend it to sports in general. Imagine if everyone who trains in a sport but isn't good enough to make a living from it started demanding to "get paid for their work". A majority of amateur sports events are free to attend. Much like mods, some of that is barely worth the time spent watching it, let alone actual money. Unlike gamers, however, sports talent scouts will demand to see a demonstration before committing a fiver and will simply not fund/sponsor/hire anyone who doesn't meet the standards for pro sports, regardless of how hard and how long they train. It's those standards that justify the price of admission for sports events. With this ****, standards are kicked to the curb and your money suddenly buys less, because when devs start getting a cut from mod sales, the "Day One DLC" effect is going to be amplified with devs putting the absolute minimum effort into build a platform that is suitable to build mods on. Because anything else isn't cost-effective and cost-effectiveness is the difference between staying in business and foreclosure, buyout by EA, asset stripping etc.

 

Peeps want to charge for their mods? They can step up their game and offer the same dollar-to-content ratio you'd expect from a professional studio, work with the devs and publishers to get their product certified under the same QA standards and get it distributed the same way DLC is, with the same guarantees, lackluster as they may be. That will encourage more and better mods. That "work" I'm willing to pay for. Regrettably, it also requires an investment from the industry which means putting a dent on profits, so **** that **** and let's just scrap standards instead.

 

With this ****ing bull**** consumerist market pandemonium we live and breathe, it's not at all about what you "deserve" to get paid for, it's what you can get away with charging for (and how much). People have sadly lost the ability to distinguish between the two, and anyone arguing the opposite will be downvoted to hell and branded a commie, a freeloader, an entitled man-child or what have you by the hordes of loyal thralls.

 

 

*of course, they would argue that I should pay them, and that is kind of the ****ing point. With mods it's all good because it's just harmless fun, right? Wrong, Gaben dixit.

Edited May 1, 2015 by 213374U

[Zoraptor]

 

They have a total of two people working on GL.

 

Yeah, that really says it all. Multi billion dollar company that wants to be arbiter of what is and isn't PC gaming but doesn't want to do any of the stuff necessary to do it properly such as making sure the stuff they sell works properly, whether game or mod. If GOG, a company an order of magnitude smaller, can employ more than two people to test games Valve surely can. I'd have a lot more (well, some at all) sympathy for steam-as-monopoly if it weren't such a lazy monopoly with an attitude of minimal effort and throwing stuff out there half baked. If they had real competition and it was the real 'free market' that Mr Newell supposedly idolises then there would be real consequences for their shonkiness, but as it stands the lock in and inertia protects them almost completely.

 

Even their apology was basically a "we're very sorry that you didn't like it" type 'apology' of the sort you see constantly from politicians who aren't really sorry for anything except the negative reaction they got.

[Osvir]

 

I honestly think it's a fair deal. Anyone who puts in a lot of effort into their work deserves to get paid, imo.

 

[...]

Modders put down an immense amount of work (at least on those big mods). I think that if Mods would be paid, then they would get better quality, and better compability and better responsibility. Lots of modders would also drop off because they wouldn't be able to handle the pressure (a lot more pressure), but some stars would shine and probably manage and handle it better than most, and then there'd be an "Elite" Modder group that lives off of it, and an "Amateur" Modder group below it doing it for hobby or whatever.

 

Kind of League of Legends. More people wanting to reach the top, because that's where the money is, but at the same time way more people in the bottom. Meaning: Way more mods, incoming, soon.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

See, this whole debate is rooted on statements and assumptions that at first sound good, but don't really hold up to scrutiny. Let's talk about "work".

 

Should people get paid for their work? Well, yeah. I'm a worker, and I sure like getting paid. Problem is when some marketing or finance genius (read: good-for-nothing parasite) comes up with a great idea to turn random **** into a commercial transaction. For instance, I like trying new recipes, and I treat my friends when they come over. Should I start charging* them because "I deserve to get paid for my work"? I also offer free advice to clueless newbies at the gym now that I no longer work as a PT. Should I charge for each and every pointer, every spotted exercise? Because, you know, "I deserve to get paid for my work". I also like to open doors for old ladies and even help them with their bags sometimes. I guess I should charge for that too, because I should get paid yadda yadda. And don't anyone dare say it's not work. I just do that **** because I enjoy doing it, I believe I should do it, or simply because I ****ing feel like doing it, not because I hope to receive monetary compensation.

 

I like the LoL simile, and I'm going to extend it to sports in general. Imagine if everyone who trains in a sport but isn't good enough to make a living from it started demanding to "get paid for their work". A majority of amateur sports events are free to attend. Much like mods, some of that is barely worth the time spent watching it, let alone actual money. Unlike gamers, however, sports talent scouts will demand to see a demonstration before committing a fiver and will simply not fund/sponsor/hire anyone who doesn't meet the standards for pro sports, regardless of how hard and how long they train. It's those standards that justify the price of admission for sports events. With this ****, standards are kicked to the curb and your money suddenly buys less, because when devs start getting a cut from mod sales, the "Day One DLC" effect is going to be amplified with devs putting the absolute minimum effort into build a platform that is suitable to build mods on. Because anything else isn't cost-effective and cost-effectiveness is the difference between staying in business and foreclosure, buyout by EA, asset stripping etc.

 

Peeps want to charge for their mods? They can step up their game and offer the same dollar-to-content ratio you'd expect from a professional studio, work with the devs and publishers to get their product certified under the same QA standards and get it distributed the same way DLC is, with the same guarantees, lackluster as they may be. That will encourage more and better mods. That "work" I'm willing to pay for. Regrettably, it also requires an investment from the industry which means putting a dent on profits, so **** that **** and let's just scrap standards instead.

 

With this ****ing bull**** consumerist market pandemonium we live and breathe, it's not at all about what you "deserve" to get paid for, it's what you can get away with charging for (and how much). People have sadly lost the ability to distinguish between the two, and anyone arguing the opposite will be downvoted to hell and branded a commie, a freeloader, an entitled man-child or what have you by the hordes of loyal thralls.

 

 

*of course, they would argue that I should pay them, and that is kind of the ****ing point. With mods it's all good because it's just harmless fun, right? Wrong, Gaben dixit.

The LoL simile was... no Noob or Amateur LoL player gets paid. I'm just here to clarify I guess.... you misunderstood it.

 

What I was saying/meaning was that:

A) The Pro's get paid, maybe even hired (Look at the "eSports"/competetive gaming scene, a lot of ex-pro players are casters at matches and a lot of them are in the scene still, but they might not play the game much anymore at a professional level, but they're part of the industry).

B) Amateurs don't get paid.

 

"Pro" Modders make great stuff.

Lots of worthless and bad Amateur or distasteful modders don't.

 

Guess who I think deserve a reward and I don't see anything wrong with it?

 

I'm not debating, I'm just expressing an opinion and I'm not going to try and sway yours or anyone elses. The video Nonek is posted is 2 hours long, sure, but I think it's great stuff, and anyone seemingly frustrated and emotional about all of this should see it for better insight and understanding. Thanks Nonek (I did see it on TB's twitter, but just thanks for sharing it still).

Edited May 1, 2015 by Osvir

[213374U]

Guess who I think deserve a reward and I don't see anything wrong with it?

 

I'm not debating, I'm just expressing an opinion and I'm not going to try and sway yours or anyone elses. The video Nonek is posted is 2 hours long, sure, but I think it's great stuff, and anyone seemingly frustrated and emotional about all of this should see it for better insight and understanding. Thanks Nonek (I did see it on TB's twitter, but just thanks for sharing it still).

 

Just to clarify, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, so I apologize if I came off as confrontational. I quoted you because I wanted to express, as you did, my own pov on the matter, specifically regarding the "they deserve to get paid for their work" sophism I see repeated so often these days. I may have misunderstood what you mean with the LoL example but seeing as I came to a similar conclusion I actually don't think that's the case.

 

I didn't watch TB's vid because I can hardly sit through two hours of A+ movies, much less some random dude rambling about stuff. I know what his general stance is though, and from what little I've watched/read he's also guilty of the same sophistry, which isn't really surprising considering he's personally invested as a content creator. I may be wrong, though. Regardless, two hours. My poor ADD...

 

And as an aside, I'm not especially frustrated about mods — but it does piss me off to no end that these days the only value is dollar value. These events are just a facet of that overarching issue.

[Osvir]

I didn't watch TB's vid because I can hardly sit through two hours of A+ movies, much less some random dude rambling about stuff.

Just want to say that, it's not TB rambling. He's having a conversation and... I guess... interviewing the owner of the Nexus and the modder behind SMIM (Static Mesh Improvement Mod).

 

So, it is pretty relevant if you want to hear their side and what they think:

A) The owner of probably the internets most "popular" (well-known) source for TES mods.

B) A prominent modder who's been modding for about a decade, and he's worked for SMIM (for Skyrim) for about 2 and a half years.

 

*shrug* do as you will. It is hardly the representatives of ALL mods of course, but these two guys were pretty sensible, logical, rational and discussed many topics (troll mods, lack of curating on Steam etc. "What is a good mod?" and "What is a bad mod?" and even "What is good Bethesda Official DLC? And can modders live up to that?").

Edited May 1, 2015 by Osvir

[Nonek]

On a slightly related note, I personally thought that the mod maker Totalbiscuit interviewed whom made SMIM was a little too invested in Bethesda, and gave them the benefit of the doubt rather than exercising due criticism. The fact that he was okay with giving Bethesda a 45% cut for himself improving their game is a personal thing, and one I can't comment on, though I would certainly not give anyone that much of my wage for no return or participation. However his faith in Bethesda to not make unfinished games seems a little naive, after all the PC port of almost every recent Elder Scrolls game has been laughable, and modders doing their work for them is something they seem very comfortable doing so far. Add in a financial reward for Bethesda doing so again and it is natural (and wise) that anyone will be sceptical.

 

Besides the best Bethesda content was that made by Obsidian in my opinion, large, good value for money and of superior quality.

[Hassat Hunter]

Damn, and here I thought I could retro-actively bill tens of thousands of people and start swimming in cash, sending lawyers out to all those damn people that refuse to pay.

 

My beautiful bubble... gone

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

On a slightly related note, I personally thought that the mod maker Totalbiscuit interviewed whom made SMIM was a little too invested in Bethesda, and gave them the benefit of the doubt rather than exercising due criticism. The fact that he was okay with giving Bethesda a 45% cut for himself improving their game is a personal thing, and one I can't comment on, though I would certainly not give anyone that much of my wage for no return or participation. However his faith in Bethesda to not make unfinished games seems a little naive, after all the PC port of almost every recent Elder Scrolls game has been laughable, and modders doing their work for them is something they seem very comfortable doing so far. Add in a financial reward for Bethesda doing so again and it is natural (and wise) that anyone will be sceptical.

 

Besides the best Bethesda content was that made by Obsidian in my opinion, large, good value for money and of superior quality.

Yeah, part of the reason I was a bit worried about this is because mods that improve functionality(mostly UI) or fix broken stuff in Bethesda games are almost universal for PC gamers and Bethesda implementing a system that lets them profit from bad design seems shady.