RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

[Prime-Mover]

From the Codex review:

Thus, when you inspect the attributes with this knowledge, it becomes very obvious what you can dump and not.

Is this nothing more than mad ranting? Or is it the friggin Truth?

 

Even before development of PoE began, Certain Developers from Obsidian were criticizing the attribute system in the IE games, accurately pointing out that those games had dump stats. They told us what we all already knew: that Every class can safely dump at least half of those stats without fear of crippling their builds. They Swore to fix this design flaw in PoE. They promised us No. More. Dump. Stats.

 

Fast forward to 2015. And what a surprise. A broken promise. There are indeed Dump stats in this game. The situation is no different than it was in the IE games. So why should PoE get a pass here? Why shouldn't we level the same criticism and scorn towards its attribute system?

 

edit: what ↑  said

 

Is it really as bad as IE? I'm no power gamer by any means, but I really struggle with the trade-offs in POE compared to the IE games.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Prime-Mover

[Ohioastro]

I don't understand what is a problem here. This is not bitching and whining but poiting out valid issues with POE. 

If somebody already likes the game, I don't think that reading any review will change his/her mind. 

When I read such a review I can see that I am not the only one who can see its flaws.

 

 

 

The original review was a multi-page hatefest, declaring this the worst game that Obsidian ever made.  The intent of &%*($)$ like that is to tear the game down, period.  None of this "constructive criticism".  If you hate absolutely everything about a game, you're not pointing out "valid issues", because if there is a point to saving a game, there should be something of value in it.  And the original review recognizes no redeeming features at all.

 

And, no, putting things in the worst possible light is *poison*.  Instead of enjoying something on its own terms, the cool kids are telling you that it's really lame.  It;s the gaming equivalent of "don't those pants look goofy?" 

 

In terms of issues - every single one of these games has a system.  When you figure the system out, you can beat every single one of them.  At every difficulty level.  This isn't true for action games, where you also need fast enough reflexes, but for games like PoE and the IE games it is absolutely correct.  So all of these "flaws" are going to emerge no matter what, which is why writing hit jobs and hate pieces on the game is absurd.

 

So if someone complains that "once I cracked the system it was easy", I say "so what"?  I got a 100+ hours out of this game, which is terrific value.  I got a lot more out of Morrowind, about the same out of Skyrim. And when I played BG / IWD / etc. the first go around I finished them, then did other things - replaying them years later.  I can easily see myself doing that with PoE too.

 

If there were hard counters people would be bitching that the game was too easy once you knew rock-paper-scissors.  If there were more "fun" builds people would be bitching that the classes were imbalanced, or ability X is OVERPOWERED NERF IT.  (Yea, it already happens.  Stupidly over-powered Baldurs Gate style builds would not improve this.)

 

Improving the game is taking the game on its own terms and trying to suggest ways of making it better.   It's not trying to convince people who like the game that they're really losers with bad taste if they don't hate it.

[Ineth]

The original review was a multi-page hatefest, declaring this the worst game that Obsidian ever made.

 

Actually, it says "the worst Obsidian game I’ve played to date" - who knows which ones he's played

[Sensuki]

I'm glad you see what I mean now Ineth

[Ohioastro]

 

The original review was a multi-page hatefest, declaring this the worst game that Obsidian ever made.

 

Actually, it says "the worst Obsidian game I’ve played to date" - who knows which ones he's played

 

 

"Worse than Dungeon Siege 3" is a clue.

[Rumpelstilskin]

Even before development of PoE began, Certain Developers from Obsidian were criticizing the attribute system in the IE games, accurately pointing out that those games had dump stats. They told us what we all already knew: that Every class can safely dump at least half of those stats without fear of crippling their builds. They Swore to fix this design flaw in PoE. They promised us No. More. Dump. Stats.

Fast forward to 2015. And what a surprise. A broken promise. There are indeed Dump stats in this game. The situation is no different than it was in the IE games. So why should PoE get a pass here? Why shouldn't we level the same criticism and scorn towards its attribute system?

 

I think they were just afraid of changing the IE formula too much, since their KS obligation was basically "an IE games successor made by the same devs". It's really easy to fix dump stats (by adding harsh, possibly asymmetrical, penalties for going below a certain threshold, if nothing else), and as you said they clearly didn't like the concept themselves, so it's the only explanation I see.

[archangel979]

From the Codex review:

Thus, when you inspect the attributes with this knowledge, it becomes very obvious what you can dump and not.

Is this nothing more than mad ranting? Or is it the friggin Truth?

 

Even before development of PoE began, Certain Developers from Obsidian were criticizing the attribute system in the IE games, accurately pointing out that those games had dump stats. They told us what we all already knew: that Every class can safely dump at least half of those stats without fear of crippling their builds. They Swore to fix this design flaw in PoE. They promised us No. More. Dump. Stats.

 

Fast forward to 2015. And what a surprise. A broken promise. There are indeed Dump stats in this game. The situation is no different than it was in the IE games. So why should PoE get a pass here? Why shouldn't we level the same criticism and scorn towards its attribute system?

 

That is not really true. In PoE wizards can dump resolve and perceptions and probably constitution to maximize their offense but they are not dump stats to them. If that wizard gets attacked (which happens from time to time and it is the problem of AI if it does not) he needs those 3 stats he dumped to survive. Compared to IE games where Wizard does not need Strength, Wisdom or Charisma to survive any attacks (and he does not need them for offense as well).

Even 3e D&D tried fixed that a bit by linking stats with saves because the AD&D system was not good enough.

Edited April 26, 2015 by archangel979

[Antless]

 

I think they were just afraid of changing the IE formula too much, since their KS obligation was basically "an IE games successor made by the same devs". It's really easy to fix dump stats (by adding harsh, possibly asymmetrical, penalties for going below a certain threshold, if nothing else), and as you said they clearly didn't like the concept themselves, so it's the only explanation I see.

 

That is not a fix for dump stats, or at least not more then disallowing lowering stats below 10 would be.

 

Obsidians "fix" was to make all stats affect all classes in a roughly equal manner, at which they succeeded (with the exception of maybe INT). However, they then went back and created such a large gaping chasm between the different roles characters (even of the same class) could take by devising a system that above all else promoted stacking boni as high as possible, that the dump stats immediately sprung into existence again, just now not between classes, but roles.

[Anaeme]

No one has ever said you cannot dump a stat. If I recall correctly, you may choose to sacrifice some attributes but you will pay a price unless of course you build your party to compensate.

 

One of my builds was a glass cannon barbarian that I compensated for by equipping him with a reach weapon and placing him behind my tank

 

The game lets you make these choices

[Gromnir]

From the Codex review:

Thus, when you inspect the attributes with this knowledge, it becomes very obvious what you can dump and not.

Is this nothing more than mad ranting? Or is it the friggin Truth?

 

Even before development of PoE began, Certain Developers from Obsidian were criticizing the attribute system in the IE games, accurately pointing out that those games had dump stats. They told us what we all already knew: that Every class can safely dump at least half of those stats without fear of crippling their builds. They Swore to fix this design flaw in PoE. They promised us No. More. Dump. Stats.

 

Fast forward to 2015. And what a surprise. A broken promise. There are indeed Dump stats in this game. The situation is no different than it was in the IE games. So why should PoE get a pass here? Why shouldn't we level the same criticism and scorn towards its attribute system?

 

actually, no, it isn't true.

 

we stopped reading the review very early.  we got to the misinformation about attributes, including the reviewer's rant about how the attributes were all meaningless.  pumping attributes, in the reviewer's estimation, were not having value.

 

...

 

am gonna let you ruminate over that.  am positive you won't see the problem with your observation, but we try.  couldn't explain strawman to you, so this is likely a doomed attempt as well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

That is not really true. In PoE wizards can dump resolve and perceptions and probably constitution to maximize their offense but they are not dump stats to them. If that wizard gets attacked (which happens from time to time and it is the problem of AI if it does not) he needs those 3 stats he dumped to survive. Compared to IE games where Wizard does not need Strength, Wisdom or Charisma to survive any attacks (and he does not need them for offense as well).

Why are we arbitrarily limiting this discussion to specific combat scenarios? In the IE games, the function of the 6 attributes goes beyond combat, doesn't it. As it stands, dumping your Mage's wisdom to 3 means you're taking a hit to your lore score. Dumping your Charisma to 3 means you're going to have to pay more for stuff in shops. And dumping your strength to 3 means your carry weight will take a hit (and in the case of BG2, your weapon options will be limited). Of course, this doesn't mean they're not dump stats (because they still friggin are) But it DOES mean that they're about as functionally useful for a Mage in the IE games as Constitution, Resolve and Perception are for a Wizard in PoE.

[Antless]

we stopped reading the review very early. 

 

I don't doubt it.

 

 

we got to the misinformation about attributes, including the reviewer's rant about how the attributes were all meaningless.  pumping attributes, in the reviewer's estimation, were not having value.

 

Just to clear that up for you: just because someone say something you don't want to hear, doesn't make what they are saying a rant, or misinformation for that matter. He also never called attributes meaningless, but rather underwhelming, miniscule and overshadowed by level bonuses and armor penalties.

[Gromnir]

 

we stopped reading the review very early. 

 

I don't doubt it.

 

 

we got to the misinformation about attributes, including the reviewer's rant about how the attributes were all meaningless.  pumping attributes, in the reviewer's estimation, were not having value.

 

Just to clear that up for you: just because someone say something you don't want to hear, doesn't make what they are saying a rant, or misinformation for that matter. He also never called attributes meaningless, but rather underwhelming, miniscule and overshadowed by level bonuses and armor penalties.

 

it were a rant and it were misinformation.  

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78279-rpgcodex-review-1-hŵrpa-dwrp/?p=1670748

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78279-rpgcodex-review-1-hŵrpa-dwrp/?p=1670841

 

the same rants were ubiquitous during the early beta.  the review were not offering new observations but were rehashing very old issues that the developers had already specific addressed.  sensuki and others didn't necessarily like josh responses regarding attribute balance, but there is no question that the obsidian reasons were rational and reasonable.

 

regardless, insofar as attribute pump v  dump, so value is miniscule v. meaningless?  HA! starve on the difference there.  is a ludicrous attempt to distinguish.  you cannot dump a  poe attribute without it causing pain.  dump intelligence on your melee rogue means you will have a commensurate will save penalty.  you will, likely feel compelled to pump resolve to balance, or all those poe domination and confusion effects the ie game diehards were mewling 'bout earlier in this thread will be crits taking you complete outta many such fights.  is not a safe dump attribute if you gotta pay for the dump by boosting another attribute that you would not necessarily have pumped... or take a talent you would not otherwise have needed.

 

also, yeah, the poe attributes is less impactful than in D&D and some other systems.  that were freaking intentional.    

 

 

thank you very much mr. reviewer.  

 

the attributes in poe is not a death sentence for those who do not reach certain thresholds.  we played the following priest o' wael character in hard mode

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 16

i 16

r 16

 

it were very effective.

 

our potd melee rogue were

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 18

i 14

r 16

 

also very effective, and 'bout on par with a high might and high dex melee rogue we had created in the priest run.  

 

the attributes do not overshadow power and talent choices.  the attributes is intentional not vital, so yeah, lowering an attribute or raising is less meaningful... but this were all addressed a LONG time ago, and folks such as sensuki is very much aware o' how the obsidians responded to concerns over such things.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 26, 2015 by Gromnir

[Stun]

including the reviewer's rant about how the attributes were all meaningless.

Just read the review again. Nope he did not say that they're meaningless.

 

Instead, he said this:

we move over to attributes – might, dexterity, constitution, perception, intellect and resolve. The big deal here is that supposedly none of them can be considered ‘dump’ stats – which you notice is flat out wrong after a few hours of gameplay. I’d say that the most important stat is might, since it influences all damage and healing done by the character, whether it is melee, ranged or spell damage (muscle wizards, ho). But even still, all things considered, the boost is underwhelming – roughly 25% bonus damage at ‘maxed’ might when you oscillate between 10-20 damage per hit? Wow! Nevertheless, it’s useful to prevent your character from just standing around picking its nose. Dexterity looks important at first because it gives you “action speed”, which governs the efficiency of actions (very useful for some mages and gunners) and the delay between them, but soon you realise that most of that is overshadowed by the armour recovery modifier anyway. Constitution looks important for frontliners because it gives a percentage boost to endurance, but the bonus is so miniscule, it’s trumped by per-level endurance gain anyway. Perception is probably the least useful of the bunch, as it affects a character’s interrupt rate – interrupts are coin toss rolls that can delay an interrupted character’s action slightly. Intellect is crucial for everything that casts spells because it influences the area of effect and effect duration of every ability. Last is resolve that can be considered an anti-perception, since it boosts concentration, your resistance to interrupts. All the attributes also give some minor adjustments to saving throws, and considering that each defence type is boosted by 2 different attributes, the system simply leads to a very disappointing feeling of “sameyness”, even among different attribute distributions.

 

Thus, when you inspect the attributes with this knowledge, it becomes very obvious what you can dump and not. Characters whose only duty is to facetank just need to pump con, per and res to bloat as many saving throws as possible. Casters can forego almost everything except might and int with a sprinkle of res. All assorted dedicated ranged fighters can just pump might and assign everything else completely at random, perhaps also investing in per. Interestingly enough, the most ‘balanced’ set of stats is necessary for melee characters focusing on damage, simply because they will have to forego some of the facetank’s stats in favour of might.

^ As you can see, Nowhere does he say they're meaningless. In fact, he doesn't even imply that they're meaningless, because doing so would have changed his argument considerably. He'd no longer be able to argue, as he does in the second paragraph there, about choosing specific attributes for "combat duty" (ie. combat roles...like Tank and ranged power)

 

Imagine that, Gromnir. Coming on here and trying to combat perceived "misinformation" by employing.....Actual misinformation. Typical of you.

 

PS: I can dump Constitution on my Rogue without suffering "build pain", can't you?

Edited April 26, 2015 by Stun

[Antless]

 

 

thank you very much mr. reviewer.  

 

the attributes in poe is not a death sentence for those who do not reach certain thresholds.  we played the following priest o' wael character in hard mode

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 16

i 16

r 16

 

it were very effective.

 

our potd melee rogue were

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 18

i 14

r 16

 

also very effective, and 'bout on par with a high might and high dex melee rogue we had created in the priest run.  

 

the attributes do not overshadow power and talent choices.  the attributes is intentional not vital, so yeah, lowering an attribute or raising is less meaningful... but this were all addressed a LONG time ago, and folks such as sensuki is very much aware o' how the obsidians responded to concerns over such things.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

So, what you are saying is that the reviewer was right and the bonus are miniscule and underwhelming? Gosh, if only he had written that.

 

It is almost like the reviewer, instead of ranting, deconstructed the attribute system and came to a conclusion, evaluated that conclusion and then stated his opinion in the review. No, I am sure that http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78279-rpgcodex-review-1-h%C5%B5rpa-dwrp/?p=1670748 with his clear cut analysis consisting of "I DONT LIKE THIS THEREFORE IT IS WRONG AND BAD" is actually right and the review doesn't have anything going for it.

[Gromnir]

 

including the reviewer's rant about how the attributes were all meaningless.

Just read the review again. Nope he did not say that.

 

Instead, he said this:

we move over to attributes – might, dexterity, constitution, perception, intellect and resolve. The big deal here is that supposedly none of them can be considered ‘dump’ stats – which you notice is flat out wrong after a few hours of gameplay. I’d say that the most important stat is might, since it influences all damage and healing done by the character, whether it is melee, ranged or spell damage (muscle wizards, ho). But even still, all things considered, the boost is underwhelming – roughly 25% bonus damage at ‘maxed’ might when you oscillate between 10-20 damage per hit? Wow! Nevertheless, it’s useful to prevent your character from just standing around picking its nose. Dexterity looks important at first because it gives you “action speed”, which governs the efficiency of actions (very useful for some mages and gunners) and the delay between them, but soon you realise that most of that is overshadowed by the armour recovery modifier anyway. Constitution looks important for frontliners because it gives a percentage boost to endurance, but the bonus is so miniscule, it’s trumped by per-level endurance gain anyway. Perception is probably the least useful of the bunch, as it affects a character’s interrupt rate – interrupts are coin toss rolls that can delay an interrupted character’s action slightly. Intellect is crucial for everything that casts spells because it influences the area of effect and effect duration of every ability. Last is resolve that can be considered an anti-perception, since it boosts concentration, your resistance to interrupts. All the attributes also give some minor adjustments to saving throws, and considering that each defence type is boosted by 2 different attributes, the system simply leads to a very disappointing feeling of “sameyness”, even among different attribute distributions.

 

Thus, when you inspect the attributes with this knowledge, it becomes very obvious what you can dump and not. Characters whose only duty is to facetank just need to pump con, per and res to bloat as many saving throws as possible. Casters can forego almost everything except might and int with a sprinkle of res. All assorted dedicated ranged fighters can just pump might and assign everything else completely at random, perhaps also investing in per. Interestingly enough, the most ‘balanced’ set of stats is necessary for melee characters focusing on damage, simply because they will have to forego some of the facetank’s stats in favour of might.

^Nowhere does he say they're meaningless. In fact, he doesn't even imply that they're meaningless, because doing so would have changed his argument considerably. He'd no longer be able to argue, as he does in the second paragraph there, about choosing specific attributes for "combat duty" (ie. combat roles...like Tank and ranged power)

 

Imagine that, Gromnir. Coming on here and trying to combat perceived "misinformation" by employing.....Actual misinformation. Typical of you.

 

see above

 

again, claimed obvious dumps and, as antless observes, "miniscule" benefits is showing a clear misunderstanding and perpetuating misinformation.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

thank you very much mr. reviewer.  

 

the attributes in poe is not a death sentence for those who do not reach certain thresholds.  we played the following priest o' wael character in hard mode

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 16

i 16

r 16

 

it were very effective.

 

our potd melee rogue were

 

m 10

c 10

d 10

p 18

i 14

r 16

 

also very effective, and 'bout on par with a high might and high dex melee rogue we had created in the priest run.  

 

the attributes do not overshadow power and talent choices.  the attributes is intentional not vital, so yeah, lowering an attribute or raising is less meaningful... but this were all addressed a LONG time ago, and folks such as sensuki is very much aware o' how the obsidians responded to concerns over such things.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

So, what you are saying is that the reviewer was right and the bonus are miniscule and underwhelming? Gosh, if only he had written that.

 

 

dear lord, what is wrong with you folks?

 

the boosts or penalties is NOT actual insignificant or unimportant.  however, the attribute values ain't vital and they ain't s'posed to result in extreme harsh obstacles for those who do not choose optimal builds.  the attribute costs do not overshadow talent choices and power choices.  the bonuses is only underwhelming if you have a clear misconception about poe attributes.  the value o' pumped might is only miniscule when compared to the value o' pumped strength in some other less balanced and less rational game systems.  

 

*whoosh*

 

right over the head o' stun and antless.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

again, claimed obvious dumps and, as antless observes, "miniscule" benefits is showing a clear misunderstanding and perpetuating misinformation.

What's that have to do with anything?

 

You claimed he dismissed the attributes as meaningless. But he DID NOT. In fact, he focused on the fact that they all did something, and that they were designed to simply augment specific combat roles, rather than define them, which means when you're building a character, you CAN and probably SHOULD Dump whatever stats don't apply to your character's combat role.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Stun

[Elerond]

It seem that reviewer don't have very good understanding how attributes effect characters and gameplay which maybe because their perspective to issue is very narrow and focused on only certain aspects of gameplay and only certain way to do things. So I would say that it makes their critique about attributes bit blindsided and in my opinion not worthwhile.

[Gromnir]

 

What's that have to do with anything?

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

^admit you're wrong Gromnir. Or, simply Retreat behind silly gifs and starwars clips. It's up to you.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Stun

[IndiraLightfoot]

*Bump* Almost 800 posts now. Let's make a record that stands the test of time!

It's the longest thread I've seen on these boards IIRC. Given its content, isn't that ironic, at least a little?

Edited April 26, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Antless]

 

dear lord, what is wrong with you folks?

 

the boosts or penalties is NOT actual insignificant or unimportant.  however, the attribute values ain't vital and they ain't s'posed to result in extreme harsh obstacles for those who do not choose optimal builds.  the attribute costs do not overshadow talent choices and power choices.  the bonuses is only underwhelming if you have a clear misconception about poe attributes.  the value o' pumped might is only miniscule when compared to the value o' pumped strength in some other less balanced and less rational game systems.  

 

*whoosh*

 

right over the head o' stun and antless.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

So, just because a mechanic is intended to work the way it does, it can't be criticized for working the way it does?

[majestic]

*Bump* Almost 800 posts now. Let's make a record that stands the test of time!

It's the longest thread I've seen on these boards IIRC. Given its content, isn't that ironic, at least a little?

 

The whole thread is nothing but yellow-press click bait, so if there's a surprise it's mostly that the "discussion" (and I use that term very, very loosely here)  herein stayed civil enough to not warrant any moderator action.

[Sarex]

*Bump* Almost 800 posts now. Let's make a record that stands the test of time!

It's the longest thread I've seen on these boards IIRC. Given its content, isn't that ironic, at least a little?

 

I think the mods are hopping the thread runs it self out, so they don't have to make a V2 of it. XD

Edited April 26, 2015 by Sarex