Why is everything in this game so bland?

Dadalama · April 19, 2015

Huh, to me it felt like the least bland high fantasy setting I've seen in forever. Forgotten Realms, and by extension Baldur's Gate is super duper band on the other hand. Everyone has their tastes I suppose.

I don't know that I'd call the DnD Forgotten Realms and thus Baldur's Gate setting "bland", though as you rightly point out, different strokes for different folks. Whether one actually liked the FR setting, one thing it had going for it was a massive amount of pre-existing depth going for it that the creators of BG didn't have to create when they were designing BG1/2. All they had to do was create their game within that pre-existing toybox, which perhaps might have meant that its developers could spend more time on the story and less on creating the environment where the story would take place.

Just a thought.

I wouldn't call a huge catalog of fantasy cliches "pre-existing depth". I actually kind of find it amusing that in one go a game design company made a more interesting world than the most popular D&D world of all time.

You can choose to not accept it as depth, but it is. There's no denying that it exists, whether you like the content or not.

And I'm not entirely sure that I'd call PoE's world more interesting. Matter of taste.

Yeah if you like cliches stacked on top of each other miles deep Forgotten Realms is probably grand...

Well I like Athkatla and Calimport and Maztica (does Maztica count? it's not in Faerun but it's on Toril)

But yeah, cliches as far as the eyes can see.

@Luckmann, funny thing is it would be fairly easy to shrug off the "going crazy" thing and learning of Thaos directly through working with the animancers (or even the dozen) to stop Waidwen's legacy. It's a bit late to change that, and it's not the wonkiest story I seen in a game I loved. But it's a bit odd.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Dadalama

elf1 · April 19, 2015

The thing is, it's not a disease. Everything at Maerwald, everything about the situation, suggested to me that his circumstance was at the very least somewhat unique. He had been reborn at least three times into closely inter-related personas, of which at least two of them were incredibly close to eachother's horrific personal tragedies.

There is, as far as I know, nothing to suggest something similar is happening to the Watcher, especially not around that point. Yes, he sees dead people, yes he sees previous lives, but that's what watchers do, it's their thing. You can even express doubts yourself as to whether this will even befall you at all.

my impression is that maerwald is supposed to be a terrifying vision of your future, and spur you on to find the lead key so that you can be cured. thats why companions keep saying you look like **** because you're not sleeping, and eder has to wake you up from horrible nightmares. the implication is that you're gonna end up like him. You can say your not going to fall but they make like youre just giving it a stiff upper lip, hiding the trouble your going through

if you go to dunryd row and happen to shoot lady webb in the dome this is pretty much spelled out: the game ends and epilogue says "without lady webb's help you can't find the leaden key. soon, as with maerwald, your nightmares enter your waking thoughts and you spend the rest of your days as a crazy hobo in defiance bay"

the problem for me is that the turmoil that the pc is supposedly going through isn't convey to the player very well. So i'm having nightmares. ok...what are they?? what about my past lives are freaking me out so much?

About the woedica temple i agree with you. I talked to the cultist lady and actually thought i could help them out...turns out you cant even though the whole point of going there was to ask them about my awakening

Luckmann · April 19, 2015

The thing is, it's not a disease. Everything at Maerwald, everything about the situation, suggested to me that his circumstance was at the very least somewhat unique. He had been reborn at least three times into closely inter-related personas, of which at least two of them were incredibly close to eachother's horrific personal tragedies.

There is, as far as I know, nothing to suggest something similar is happening to the Watcher, especially not around that point. Yes, he sees dead people, yes he sees previous lives, but that's what watchers do, it's their thing. You can even express doubts yourself as to whether this will even befall you at all.

my impression is that maerwald is supposed to be a terrifying vision of your future, and spur you on to find the lead key so that you can be cured. thats why companions keep saying you look like **** because you're not sleeping, and eder has to wake you up from horrible nightmares. the implication is that you're gonna end up like him. You can say your not going to fall but they make like youre just giving it a stiff upper lip, hiding the trouble your going through

if you go to dunryd row and happen to shoot lady webb in the dome this is pretty much spelled out: the game ends and epilogue says "without lady webb's help you can't find the leaden key. soon, as with maerwald, your nightmares enter your waking thoughts and you spend the rest of your days as a crazy hobo in defiance bay"

the problem for me is that the turmoil that the pc is supposedly going through isn't convey to the player very well. So i'm having nightmares. ok...what are they?? what about my past lives are freaking me out so much?

About the woedica temple i agree with you. I talked to the cultist lady and actually thought i could help them out...turns out you cant even though the whole point of going there was to ask them about my awakening

You know what? The note on the nightmares is good. They should've conveyed that better by having interactive nightmares that occur both randomly and at specific places in the game, that all universally result in some form of temporary (random dream) or permanent (specific dream) penalties, primarily to your mental attributes but also to your physical ones (due to shaky hands, a state of constant nausea, or a feeling of fatigue).

Some of the dreams could be vaguely prophetic about what's going on, some could deal with companions and their problems or even previous lives (Edér's brother comes to mind) without explicitly explaining it to you at all, and some really could just be completely alien to you and not meant to make sense.

A bit like the slider dreams in Baldur's Gate, except interactive, some of them simply ending with a note of how you feel, at least one of them being the realization that you need help. Fast.

Varana · April 19, 2015

Voss: While the current crisis may be over by the time you get to Thaos, you don't really know that until the end. But allowing someone like Thaos to continue would be a bad idea anyway. At some point he basically boasts about the horrible things he did a thousand years back, leading to the conclusion that while his current soul-collecting may be over, he would do it again. And murder a few nations in between.

Stopping Thaos as a motivation is decent, I think, esp. if you have reservations about the end justifying the means. He's basically a standard villain character.

It is the personal connection that is sorely lacking.

WebShaman · April 19, 2015

In a world like PoE, where there is no good or evil, Thaos is just not a villian.

Sure, he has done some pretty inhumane things - but nothing directly to you (other than inadvertently Awakening you).

To some past soul, yeah, but seriously...talk about carrying a grudge!

I never had the feeling that Thaos was a super - bad guy. And he is supposed to be, right?

Even in DB at the Animancy debate...where were the Ciphers? In a world like PoE, as someone in a position of power, you are going to have to protect yourself from domination, charm, and having your thoughts read.

It is just another inconsistency in a loooool line of logical errors presented in the game world IP.

Dadalama · April 19, 2015

I thought The Leaden Key itself was, for now, a necessary evil but the plot was pretty screwed up and needed to be stopped. I was more motivated by the hollowborn epidemic then the main story wanted to let me be it seems.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Dadalama

WebShaman · April 19, 2015

Why did you care about the hollowborn? Your children and family wasn't affected, and you do nothing to stop it - it is already "over" before you get involved!

Just another bland reality in a series of such...

sparklecat · April 19, 2015

Why did you care about the hollowborn? Your children and family wasn't affected...

Because I wasn't roleplaying a sociopath?

Crucis · April 19, 2015

In a world like PoE, where there is no good or evil, Thaos is just not a villian.

Sure, he has done some pretty inhumane things - but nothing directly to you (other than inadvertently Awakening you).

To some past soul, yeah, but seriously...talk about carrying a grudge!

I never had the feeling that Thaos was a super - bad guy. And he is supposed to be, right?

Even in DB at the Animancy debate...where were the Ciphers? In a world like PoE, as someone in a position of power, you are going to have to protect yourself from domination, charm, and having your thoughts read.

It is just another inconsistency in a loooool line of logical errors presented in the game world IP.

I disagree with the stance that there's no good or evil. There is no alignment system, but that's not the same thing as saying that there's no good and evil.

I do agree that the PC's motivation isn't as crystal clear as it was in BG2. After all, in BG2, Irenicus kidnaps and tortures you. Even though you don't know why, that's enough for the PC to have a really, really strong motivation to want to hunt Irenicus down. But with Thaos, you don't even know his name at the start. You can't be certain that he was responsible for what happens to you, though it seems like that he was, but only by accident rather than intent. Sure, this person looks to be a bad guy, but there's nothing that tells you that he's the Big Bad Guy that you need to hunt down and kill. All you have is a mystery to be solved. And not everyone is going to see solving a mystery as a strong motivation.

Ineth · April 19, 2015

The games story shone with things like the Dunryd Row stuff and the Asylum mission (both reminded me a little of Arcanum) but it would always slip back into something more generic just as it was getting interesting.

I wouldn't be so harsh with the rest of the story/setting, but I agree that it would have been great to have more Dunryd Row related content!

Maybe in the expansion. Or mods.

Svirfneblin · April 19, 2015

Yeah after it was revealed that the Leaden Key was behind the Hollowborn in Cilaban Rilag I was like wow this is a really big deal! And my companions had...no reaction to this information which made the whole Hollowborn epidemic seem unimportant.

Even when my character tried to claim that stopping Thaos from doing more stuff was their motivation, companions and various NPCs kept going back to how my character needed to find him to not go insane. The insanity is...underplayed, I actually didn't know my character was going insane until I saw it as one of the main quest summaries in the journal.

The story has some interesting elements, but it's not tied together all that well.

WebShaman · April 19, 2015

Prove that good and evil really exists in the physical world of PoE and not as some meta-concept in your mind.

There is no god of evil, no construct that points to this.

Just an artificial pantheon of false gods overlaid on some natural Universe (as far as we are informed, that is).

No evidence ingame supports the existence of good and evil - not even as a conflict.

Those thinking along these lines and reacting accordingly are badly informed.

There is only "beneficial or not" depending from perspective.

Voss · April 19, 2015

@Webshaman- eh... whatnow? Good and evil are social constructs, not physical forces. And certainly aren't related to gods.

Voss: While the current crisis may be over by the time you get to Thaos, you don't really know that until the end. But allowing someone like Thaos to continue would be a bad idea anyway. At some point he basically boasts about the horrible things he did a thousand years back, leading to the conclusion that while his current soul-collecting may be over, he would do it again. And murder a few nations in between.

Stopping Thaos as a motivation is decent, I think, esp. if you have reservations about the end justifying the means. He's basically a standard villain character.

It is the personal connection that is sorely lacking.

Sure. But none of that is why you're chasing him. Most of it, as you say, doesn't even come out to the very end. You're chasing him because your character somehow links Maerwald insane theories (which you don't even have to believe) that you'll inevitably go insane with the possibility that you won't go insane if you talk to this guy. Ultimately you're just forced to murder this guy (for something that is completely unrelated to the crimes he has committed) to get an answer that is completely obvious. And about 10 minutes after being told (by the wood twins) that Awakening is irreversible. Despite watching Aloth (immediately after that speech) frown and concentrate hard, and suppress his Awakening.

Its all pretty baffling. But yeah, the Hollowborn thing would be an interesting motivation... if you learned about it at the end of the prologue. Learning about it at the end of chapter 2 and being forced to chase the guy regardless is... pretty uninspiring.

elf1 · April 19, 2015

The thing is, it's not a disease. Everything at Maerwald, everything about the situation, suggested to me that his circumstance was at the very least somewhat unique. He had been reborn at least three times into closely inter-related personas, of which at least two of them were incredibly close to eachother's horrific personal tragedies.

There is, as far as I know, nothing to suggest something similar is happening to the Watcher, especially not around that point. Yes, he sees dead people, yes he sees previous lives, but that's what watchers do, it's their thing. You can even express doubts yourself as to whether this will even befall you at all.

my impression is that maerwald is supposed to be a terrifying vision of your future, and spur you on to find the lead key so that you can be cured. thats why companions keep saying you look like **** because you're not sleeping, and eder has to wake you up from horrible nightmares. the implication is that you're gonna end up like him. You can say your not going to fall but they make like youre just giving it a stiff upper lip, hiding the trouble your going through

if you go to dunryd row and happen to shoot lady webb in the dome this is pretty much spelled out: the game ends and epilogue says "without lady webb's help you can't find the leaden key. soon, as with maerwald, your nightmares enter your waking thoughts and you spend the rest of your days as a crazy hobo in defiance bay"

the problem for me is that the turmoil that the pc is supposedly going through isn't convey to the player very well. So i'm having nightmares. ok...what are they?? what about my past lives are freaking me out so much?

About the woedica temple i agree with you. I talked to the cultist lady and actually thought i could help them out...turns out you cant even though the whole point of going there was to ask them about my awakening

You know what? The note on the nightmares is good. They should've conveyed that better by having interactive nightmares that occur both randomly and at specific places in the game, that all universally result in some form of temporary (random dream) or permanent (specific dream) penalties, primarily to your mental attributes but also to your physical ones (due to shaky hands, a state of constant nausea, or a feeling of fatigue).

Some of the dreams could be vaguely prophetic about what's going on, some could deal with companions and their problems or even previous lives (Edér's brother comes to mind) without explicitly explaining it to you at all, and some really could just be completely alien to you and not meant to make sense.

A bit like the slider dreams in Baldur's Gate, except interactive, some of them simply ending with a note of how you feel, at least one of them being the realization that you need help. Fast.

that would have been great... now i'm mad that they didn't do this

Dadalama · April 19, 2015

Why did you care about the hollowborn? Your children and family wasn't affected, and you do nothing to stop it - it is already "over" before you get involved!

Just another bland reality in a series of such...

Look I agree good and evil are just social constructs. But some people have this thing called empathy, it gives us bad feelings when hurtful things happen in general. It gives us good feelings when nice things happen in general. Because I have this mysterious thing called empathy it's in my personal interest to keep things nice. And I tend to roleplay that aspect in my characters.

Even the one's that I find abhorrent.

Morality may very well be a fixed idea but your conception of egoism doesn't seems to be very fluid either.

WebShaman · April 20, 2015

Ok, now we are getting somewhere!

It is a perfectly fine motivation to have empathy and want to help.

I was just objecting to the "evil" bit.

@Voss - I was comparing the difference between PoE and D&D.

Dadalama · April 20, 2015

Ok, now we are getting somewhere!

It is a perfectly fine motivation to have empathy and want to help.

I was just objecting to the "evil" bit.

@Voss - I was comparing the difference between PoE and D&D.

It's shorter than saying "repulsive to the vast majority of observers". I'm not going to list the things I find disgusting. But, you know there's few that would say being a racist, sexist, hyper religious murder hobo is someone you'd have tea with. Not someone I'd have tea with anyways.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Dadalama

Crucis · April 20, 2015

Prove that good and evil really exists in the physical world of PoE and not as some meta-concept in your mind.

There is no god of evil, no construct that points to this.

Just an artificial pantheon of false gods overlaid on some natural Universe (as far as we are informed, that is).

No evidence ingame supports the existence of good and evil - not even as a conflict.

Those thinking along these lines and reacting accordingly are badly informed.

There is only "beneficial or not" depending from perspective.

Oh please. Good and evil is just a meta-concept or a social construct? That sounds like moral relativism to me. :rolleyes:

Volourn · April 20, 2015

"Prove that good and evil really exists in the physical world of PoE and not as some meta-concept in your mind.

There is no god of evil, no construct that points to this.

Just an artificial pantheon of false gods overlaid on some natural Universe (as far as we are informed, that is).

No evidence ingame supports the existence of good and evil - not even as a conflict.

Those thinking along these lines and reacting accordingly are badly informed.

There is only "beneficial or not" depending from perspective."

L0L Good and evil does exist in the world of PE. To pretend it doesn't is laughable. Some of the gods are clearly evil and some are clearly good.

The cocnepts of good and evil exist for a reason. You don't think sacrificing a bay is evil? How about raping your niece? Not evil? Or helping Elder find the answers to his brother isn't good? Or remving an intruder that mass murdered the former inhabitants isn't good?

COME ON.

Stop with the opsycho babble of 'there is no good or evil just perspective'. That nonsense shoudln't work in the real world or a fictional one. It's mythical and isn't logical.

sparklecat · April 20, 2015

Prove that good and evil really exists in the physical world of PoE and not as some meta-concept in your mind.

There is no god of evil, no construct that points to this.

Just an artificial pantheon of false gods overlaid on some natural Universe (as far as we are informed, that is).

No evidence ingame supports the existence of good and evil - not even as a conflict.

Those thinking along these lines and reacting accordingly are badly informed.

There is only "beneficial or not" depending from perspective.

Oh please. Good and evil is just a meta-concept or a social construct? That sounds like moral relativism to me.

Not moral relativism!

cdd · April 20, 2015

Twin Elms felt kind of rushed, and i got the impression Obsidian didn't really know what to do with the Glanfathan setting so they just slapped a bunch of extremely generic quests on it and called it a day. The initial interactions with the gods in Teir Evron was well done, though. While Act 3 falls a bit flat, Act 2 is amazing! I have always been a sucker for big citys serving as expansive quest hubs in crpgs and Defiance Bay delivers on so many levels.

Overall i enjoyed the game a lot, it doesn't quite reach the genius of the very best IE titles (P:T, BG2), but it is the best crpg of the last decade or so and if Obsidian chooses to go with Kickstarter again for their next project, i will definitely become a backer.

WebShaman · April 21, 2015

As expected Volourn, you pontificate without offering any proof.

Now, there is Right and Wrong, certainly. You are most likely confusing this with Good and Evil.

Prove your point. Offer ingame facts that support the existence of Good and Evil in the PoE gameworld. Show us your evidence.

Don't point to things and measure them with your opinion - like "so as so does so and so, I consider that Good/Evil" because that is just opinion and not a fact or evidence of such.

Luj1 · April 21, 2015

second part of the game is watered-down as hell

Manart · April 21, 2015

Twin Elms felt kind of rushed...

So... you sacrifice a lot of babies in other MMO?

Luj1 · April 21, 2015

It did felt rushed a lot.

Why is everything in this game so bland?

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