Twitter outrage over the "[spoiler]" quest

[sparklecat]

I would really love to know how I could get an answer from Sawyer on the matter of him sponsoring Feminist Frequency. That's not even a matter of "I don't like it, so how dare you sponsor it." No, that's more of a case where I think it's an outrage in the same way I'd wanna talk to Obama if I found out he was funding Mitt Romney's mudslinging campaign of him. It's just so illogical that it's borderline insane. I'm curious, I'm confused and I'd love to hear it justified.

Email Obsidian or ask him on Twitter.

 

Perhaps he thinks they have a point?  Even if he agrees that they're wrong on his game, he could still generally agree with them and think their cause is worth backing.

[Longknife]

 

I would really love to know how I could get an answer from Sawyer on the matter of him sponsoring Feminist Frequency. That's not even a matter of "I don't like it, so how dare you sponsor it." No, that's more of a case where I think it's an outrage in the same way I'd wanna talk to Obama if I found out he was funding Mitt Romney's mudslinging campaign of him. It's just so illogical that it's borderline insane. I'm curious, I'm confused and I'd love to hear it justified.

 

Why don't you ask him? He's answers lots of questions on Twitter and Tumblr.

 

 

 

I will, though I can only hope that he would answer. I have NEITHER of those accounts but I guess I'll make a tumblr account (oh god) since I doubt I can phrase my question in 200 characters or less.

 

 

I'm at a loss here. I don't consider removing the limerick spineless, I consider that business being business. THIS I consider spineless....or woefully ill informed....or...something. I mean it's plain as day she lies and purposefully misrepresents New Vegas in her Women as Backround Decoration videos, with the camera conveniently cutting off whenever counter-evidence is about to enter the scene to shatter her narrative.

[Kimuji]

When one starts seeing ennemies at every corner it is the first symptom of paranoia. Stop putting definitive labels on people just because they said or did one thing you don't agree with. This is not because you don't agree with everything they say that they automatically belong to the "opposite side".

Edited April 4, 2015 by Kimuji

[evensong]

 

 

 

Mods, lock and then delete this thread pls.  The OP is only actually help spin the wheels for these idiots.

 

Can't well all just be grown up and ignore this crap....by debating it pointlessly, you're just as bad.

 

We wish we could ignore this, but if this wasn't an ongoing problem, it would just be ignored. The OP isn't actually helping to spin the wheels for these idiots - Obsidian is. Obsidian insists on responding to non-issues through some kind of pavlonian reflex and let "the offended" dictate what is acceptable and what isn't; that's the whole problem.

 

Except they explicitly stated they wouldn't have wanted this in the game in the first place, it slipped past them. That makes it a correction, not caving.

 

Removing the quest like where you kill a kid would be caving. But that's not gonna happen, because that would be preposterous.

 

 

Caving the first time was preposterous. Not caving this time will be just as preposterous as caving the first time. If you really believe the engineered excuse in the Announcment, I have a bridge to sell you, just North of Defiance Bay. Mint condition.

 

 

Do you disagree that Obsidian's games, with a Feminist Frequency sponsor at the helm, tend to be fairly progressive w/r/t sexuality and gender? If you don't, why do you think they'd let a dumb joke like this past the editing process in the first place?

[sjblack2014]

They've already caved to a sexist maniac, at the cost of their fanbase, their backers, their customers.

 

They don't deserve any sympathy or protection.

 

They had their chance. They've made their choice.

 

Don't help those who don't help themselves. Don't defend those who won't defend themselves.

 

Let the SJWs destroy the game PIECE. BY. PIECE..

 

Watch it burn, and when all of them look up and shout "Save us!"...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look down and whisper "No."

Edited April 4, 2015 by sjblack2014

[WotanAnubis]

Swen Vincke from Larian wrote a blog post recently (sorry I can't find the link to it), about how dragon commander caused a lot of offence by including the rape choices (you have a choice of condemning war rape by your soldiers, or turning a blind eye), people were demanding this was removed but he felt it important to keep it in as felt it was a realistic choice. It irks me that such content might have been cut from the game to avoid offence, even though it is treated in a very serious and non-lighthearted manner.

 

 

I think you mean this blog post.

 

Then again, maybe not. He doesn't mention people demanding it be changed. He does mention the team worrying about what to do about such sensitive issues because they themselves also felt uncomfortable about it.

 

An interesting piece either way.

[KingNee]

Why are feminists actively involved in this? What has this got to do with feminism? Some belief that men like to see children murdered and women don't?

 

Feminists = ISIS

[Starwars]

I was thinking about backing FemFreq back in the day and probably would've if I hadn't forgotten about it. I still think it's good to examine games from that perspective. Unfortunately the whole discussion has now become tainted beyond any point of reason.

Does that mean I think Sarkeesian has done a good job of it? Definitely not.

 

I must say it's rather annyoing to see people constantly bring their own politics into everything. Both people trying to censor the game, and the people lashing out against Josh or Obsidian. Becoming outraged that Josh chose to support the FemFreq kickstarter is on a similar level of people being outraged that you can kill a child in the game. It's very silly, not to mention counter-productive, as being outraged and pointing fingers will not solve the debate or further your cause, no matter what side you happen to be on. The people on the other side will simply think of you as another idiot and use that to further their own cause and on and on and on it goes... forever until we all die from brain damage.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Starwars

[Bayzent]

Let me grab some popcorn and turn in "We didn't start the fire" while we see all the **** going down.

 

May step in with something more constructive/destructive after seeing Obsidian's response.

[Longknife]

 

I would really love to know how I could get an answer from Sawyer on the matter of him sponsoring Feminist Frequency. That's not even a matter of "I don't like it, so how dare you sponsor it." No, that's more of a case where I think it's an outrage in the same way I'd wanna talk to Obama if I found out he was funding Mitt Romney's mudslinging campaign of him. It's just so illogical that it's borderline insane. I'm curious, I'm confused and I'd love to hear it justified.

He backed it before she had created a single video in the series and two years before she did the one with New Vegas.

 

 

This makes sense.

 

 

I would really love to know how I could get an answer from Sawyer on the matter of him sponsoring Feminist Frequency. That's not even a matter of "I don't like it, so how dare you sponsor it." No, that's more of a case where I think it's an outrage in the same way I'd wanna talk to Obama if I found out he was funding Mitt Romney's mudslinging campaign of him. It's just so illogical that it's borderline insane. I'm curious, I'm confused and I'd love to hear it justified.

Email Obsidian or ask him on Twitter.

 

Perhaps he thinks they have a point?  Even if he agrees that they're wrong on his game, he could still generally agree with them and think their cause is worth backing.

 

 

 

This does not. Here's why:

 

The "Women as Backround Decoration" is a montage of games allegedly guilty of the trope. In the vid, she accuses New Vegas of:

 

1) Not providing female characters with any discernable personality, to the point they function only as eye candy.

2) Makes commentary about how women serve as prostitutes and how you would not see the same happen to men.

3) How killing these prostitutes is a very real and intended feature to support some sick male power fantasy, and how there are no real or meaningful consequences for doing so.

 

 

Favorite part is she takes a gun and blows off the head of the Crier outside the Atomic Wrangler while commenting about "no consequences," but then proceeds to HILARIOUSLY cut the clip off not but one second after she dies to avoid footage of the Kings lighting her ass up, and even more embarassingly, she doesn't even BOTHER addressing the "You've gained Bad Karma!" pop-up in the top right.

 

She blatantly lies and misrepresents games. It's nothing new. I also don't consider it normal to think "well they blatantly spread lies about my product BUT THIS INFO ABOUT THE OTHER GAMES SEEMS LEGIT AND TRUSTWORTHY." Others have commented she blatantly misrepresents Hitman in that video too.

 

There is a difference between constructive, valued criticism and blatant misinformation. If I give you a university term paper I wrote because I want your constructive criticism, and you hand it back saying I never shutup about ponies so D- when the paper is about criminal law, then wtf you're blatantly lying and I don't gain or learn anything from that.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Longknife

[Divinehammer]

 

Swen Vincke from Larian wrote a blog post recently (sorry I can't find the link to it), about how dragon commander caused a lot of offence by including the rape choices (you have a choice of condemning war rape by your soldiers, or turning a blind eye), people were demanding this was removed but he felt it important to keep it in as felt it was a realistic choice. It irks me that such content might have been cut from the game to avoid offence, even though it is treated in a very serious and non-lighthearted manner.

 

 

I think you mean this blog post.

 

Then again, maybe not. He doesn't mention people demanding it be changed. He does mention the team worrying about what to do about such sensitive issues because they themselves also felt uncomfortable about it.

 

An interesting piece either way.

 

 

Yes that's it thanks. I read it a long time ago and couldn't find it in my history, also yes it was internal than external discussion/pressure.

[sparklecat]

Why are feminists actively involved in this? What has this got to do with feminism? Some belief that men like to see children murdered and women don't?

 

Feminists = ISIS

Yes, you have cracked it.

[PrimeJunta]

@Longknife This may be a daring suggestion but I'm going to throw it out anyway.

 

Consider attempting to watch the FemFreq videos without your full battle armor on. I.e., just listen to what she has to say, reserving judgment on it for the moment.

 

She is making a case. Her case is about the representation of women in gaming. She is pointing out things that we mostly pass by without comment or without notice simply because they're so much a part of the accepted background to things that we tend to take it for granted. She does this by picking examples from an enormous variety of games.

 

What she is not doing is attempting to write balanced critiques -- political, ludographical, or otherwise -- of the games she's mentioning. That's not her intent. 

 

And while you're right -- IMO -- that she misses the mark on a number of the specific examples, I believe she's very much right about the general case she's making. Gaming culture does have a problem with the presence and representation of anyone who isn't white, straight, and male, and most of her examples are relevant at pointing this out.

Edited April 4, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[evensong]

Why are feminists actively involved in this? What has this got to do with feminism? Some belief that men like to see children murdered and women don't?

 

Feminists = ISIS

 

I'm glad to see people are being reasonable about things.

[Badmojo]

Regarding the OP post.  This is EXACTLY what happens when you give into a group of crazy people who spend all day finding things to be offended about.  They smell blood and will keep coming back for more. 

 

Problematic issues that will come up from the offended twitter side soon:

 

• Children dying
• Women getting killed/murdered
• Why are women weak?
• Why is there not more diverse characters (non white)
• Why is there not more people with different sexual orientations
• Why can't the PC be a trans person?
• The hanging tree
• Prostitutes
• Why is there not a even 50/50 split of women to men ratio?
• etc...etc...etc.

Obsidian/Josh opened a can of worms when they caved in to the crazy people.  This will just be the tip of the iceberg of complaints coming soon.  The majority are NOT gamers, in fact most hate gaming and their culture.  However, it is now a hot platform to shove their political ideology on.  They are not going away and you will NEVER please them, but you will hurt your own gaming fans and your own artistic freedom by listening and giving in to them.

 

Obsidian have nobody to blame but themselves for this mess.

[wpmaura]

 

 

I asked in the previous thread but it got locked and I never got an answer.

 

What is the "progressive" crowd's endgame? I am genuinely curious as I don't think I've ever seen a coherent answer to this question.

 

I've seen half answers ranging from everyone has to be represented in every single game (this seems highly unrealistic to me), to every game has to be accessible to every player no game can be too difficult or too complex.

 

I honestly mean no trolling with this question.

 

I wrote a reply but the thread got locked before I had time to post it. Fortunately I saved it:

 

Those are pretty good questions actually. 

 

I'm not all that interested in endgames. I see culture as more of a process and find it more interesting and productive to identify things wrong with it and then attempt to change them, and also make constant course corrections in case of unintended consequences or more pressing concerns coming up. I would like to live in a kinder world: one where it matters less where you were born and who your parents were, which provides more second chances when you screw up, and where generosity and cooperation are valued more than possession and competition.

 

I don't think games "need" to represent anyone in particular at all. However: I observe that in actual point of fact, until very recently games have overwhelmingly represented and catered to a pretty small and IMO not all that interesting subset of the population. If the protagonist isn't a macho square-jawed space marine type, she's a big-boobed scantily-clad package of fapping material, the occasional exception or half-accidental Fem-Shep aside. Men by and large are presented as characters you want to be, women as objects you want to possess. It's formulaic, tired, and clichéd, and it's unappealing to a very large number of people. 

 

I would like to see that change. Not that there won't be any games with white straight male lantern-jawed space-marine type protagonists, but that that will no longer be the default expectation for the protagonist. So yeah, if a new game is being made, I count it as a point in its favor if it features an Inuit mother-of-five and a Polynesian scholar as companions, and if the dominant technological and cultural power happens to consist of people with dark skin.  

 

I also feel very strongly that games should not shy away from difficult themes and materials. I don't, generally speaking, like "safe" or bowdlerized stuff. Again, P:E does this rather well. It references rape, child murder, genocide, and all kinds of heavy stuff, but does it intelligently and coherently.

 

I don't want every game to be suitable for everybody. However, I would like to see more games suitable for and representing more people. Partly it's for altruistic reasons -- I think it'd be cool if we saw more non-white non-males here -- and partly because I myself find it interesting to vicariously see the world through other eyes. 

 

In summary: I observe a problem, namely that gaming culture in general and places like this forum in particular are not comfortable places to be if you're not white, straight, male, and argumentative, and I would like that to change. 

 

Finally, I don't think there is a "formula" for this. It's all about intent and self-understanding. I detest transparent attempts at being "politically correct." DA:I for example. It's ghastly. Randomizing everybody's race and making half the characters gay without any examination of what that would mean, while leaving in things like the transparent and hideously racist "Qunari = Arabs" is worse than naively oblivious racism and sexism. It's not about what's in the game; it's about approaching it thoughtfully and intelligently.

 

And finally finally, I do agree that a bunch of people on the "social justice" side of the fence go to ridiculous extremes with this. I do not want trigger warnings on everything, jazz hands instead of applause, or the removal of spiders. Nor am I in favor of censorship -- i.e., an outside authority determining what should or shouldn't be in a game. I am, however, strongly in favor of critique and criticism, and I'm thrilled if the critique and criticism changes things for the better, as the backlash to GG has by and large done, DA:I idiocy notwithstanding.

 

Did this help at all?

 

As long as we can only make jokes about white men and not women, PoC, transpersons etc., games will only mainly feature white men as protagonists.

 

 

so true.

[Jazou]

Didn't read the whole thread because I don't want to spoiler too much for me.

BUT the two tweets from the initial post are just damn stupid....

 

"Were killing children now?" - Don't they get it's just a game?

 

I would even eat a whole bowl of my grandpa's poo within a videogame if it would give some XP. But in reallife?

C'mon I'm able to separate such things!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Jazou

[john_boy]

 

Hey guys,

 

just saw that picture on reddit. Apparently the easily offended moved to the next target.

 

While i agree with the statement that children should have special protection in video games and shouldnt be allowed to be slaughtered or sacrificed, i dont think that we should change major story elements after a game got released, especially since this is a videogame for 16+ year old people

 

Tl;dr: In my opinion the devs should NOT change it.

 

 

No, just no. It's not bloody real! It's just a game and no one should have special protection. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

 

++

[Longknife]

@Longknife This may be a daring suggestion but I'm going to throw it out anyway.

 

Consider attempting to watch the FemFreq videos without your full battle armor on. I.e., just listen to what she has to say, reserving judgment on it for the moment.

 

She is making a case. Her case is about the representation of women in gaming. She is pointing out things that we mostly pass by without comment or without notice simply because they're so much a part of the accepted background to things that we tend to take it for granted. She does this by picking examples from an enormous variety of games.

 

What she is not doing is attempting to write balanced critiques -- political, ludographical, or otherwise -- of the games she's mentioning. That's not her intent. 

 

And while you're right -- IMO -- that she misses the mark on a number of the specific examples, I believe she's very much right about the general case she's making. Gaming culture does have a problem with the presence and representation of anyone who isn't white, straight, and male, and most of her examples are relevant at pointing this out.

 

 

Dude are you kidding me?

 

What part of:

 

"Players are free to kill these sexualized female backround characters as a male power fantasy with no punishments for doing so.

 

*Shoots Atomic Wrangler Hooker in the face*

 

YOU'VE GAINED BAD KARMA

 

"Watch out!"

 

"Murderer!"

 

-BLATANT CUTAWAY TO NEXT SCENE-

 

 

Are you not understanding?

 

There is no "o ur right I was mistaken" here. She lies.

[evensong]

Regarding the OP post.  This is EXACTLY what happens when you give into a group of crazy people who spend all day finding things to be offended about.  They smell blood and will keep coming back for more. 

 

Problematic issues that will come up from the offended twitter side soon:

 

• Children dying
• Women getting killed/murdered
• Why are women weak?
• Why is there not more diverse characters (non white)
• Why is there not more people with different sexual orientations
• Why can't the PC be a trans person?
• The hanging tree
• Prostitutes
• Why is there not a even 50/50 split of women to men ratio?
• etc...etc...etc.

Obsidian/Josh opened a can of worms when they caved in to the crazy people.  This will just be the tip of the iceberg of complaints coming soon.  The majority are NOT gamers, in fact most hate gaming and their culture.  However, it is now a hot platform to shove their political ideology on.  They are not going away and you will NEVER please them, but you will hurt your own gaming fans and your own artistic freedom by listening and giving in to them.

 

Obsidian have nobody to blame but themselves for this mess.

 

I'll bet you 500cp literally nothing else people complain about for political reasons will be removed from the game.

[valmont]

They've brought it on themselves by bowing to SJW zealots tbh.

 

It's hunting season on Obsidian now that they've changed content in their game because of a minority, they smell blood.

[takamorisan]

At this point its just trolls using this as an opportunity to ****post the game to oblivion...

 

[galenwolf]

Once you agree to censor yourself over one thing peple will want to keep censoring you since they know you'll do it.

 

TBH if the twitterverse decended on obsidian now demanding the entire game be changed to fit their senseabilities it think it would serve obsidian right.

[Maviarab]

They've already caved to a sexist maniac, at the cost of their fanbase, their backers, their customers.

 

They don't deserve any sympathy or protection.

 

They had their chance. They've made their choice.

 

Don't help those who don't help themselves. Don't defend those who won't defend themselves.

 

Let the SJWs destroy the game PIECE. BY. PIECE..

 

Watch it burn, and when all of them look up and shout "Save us!"...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look down and whisper "No."

 

 

Awwww.....you made an account just to write that.  Sounds as idiotic and maniacal as the twitter fools imo.

[DocDoomII]

Were killing grammar, more likely.