Resting / Camping Discussion Thread

[Parsong]

 No you are bothering a forum full of people instead.  

.

 

 

 

How am I bothering you, you're the one clicking on the thread and getting upset.  That isn't my doing.

[Xharlie]

I feel like the PoE community has many things in common with the Dark Souls community. Go onto any Dark Souls forum and explain that you want the option to "pause" the game because, occasionally, you have to stand up from your PC to stop your four-year-old from boiling over or prevent the pot on the stove from leaping off the balcony and they'll tell you to "get gud" and that you're playing the game incorrectly if you need to "pause"

 

I know how these RPG mechanics work. If I wanted to, I could build a munchkin with all the right dump-stats and min-maxed to the max, sculpt my party into the perfect fighting machine and "pwn" the game on the hardest difficulty without resting all the time. I don't choose to play games like that, any more. This is a ROLE PLAYING game and I choose to play a character that I fancy.

 

Because of that, my character feels painfully weak and that means that I need to rest, often. The limit on camping supplies means only one thing: busy-work, running back to town to buy more. The result is a lot of boring commuting and no chance to become immersed.

 

To all of you who think there is some magic strategy that I (and some others on this thread) clearly do not understand: what is it? For a start, how do you prevent all the junk-mobs from rushing a single support character, stun locking them and maiming them? There's no way to get out of a cluster-... because they all get disengagement attacks and, more often than not, your move-orders are ignored anyway.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Xharlie

[Dongom]

Anyone get that camping mod made yet? I pm'd some people but never got a reply.  A link would be cool.

 

P.S. I've beat the game on hardest, I just want a smoother second play-through as a caster.

[AnarchyJesus]

Anyone get that camping mod made yet? I pm'd some people but never got a reply.  A link would be cool.

 

P.S. I've beat the game on hardest, I just want a smoother second play-through as a caster.

not yet. dang thing is like hunting big foot.

[Sam-R]

I read a review on Pillars of Eternity which locked into this camping issue as well, framing it as a strange interplay between Obsidian's tendency to eliminate tedious features and make games altogether make more sense (stuff like the New Vegas companion wheel, or the Pillars of Eternity shared inventory and the stash), and their habit of also leaving some tedious busywork - like, in my view, the camping limit stuff outlined in this thread - in.

 

There's a "Stash" option which means you have no inventory limit and never have to worry about weight limits. This is good, because weight limits are extremely irritating and games enforcing them only serves as pedantic busywork. However, the game then doesn't allow you to rest at will to recover between fights. You have four campfires and can only rest four times before having to resupply. So you go into tough areas, make some progress, rest, make some more progress, rest, etc until you run out of campfires and have to run back to the nearest inn or store to buy some more. Which is pretty much just pedantic busywork. Obsidian giveth and Obsidian taketh away... (taken from "The Wertzone" blog)

 

Vocalised my views on the matter pretty well.

[Dongom]

I read a review on Pillars of Eternity which locked into this camping issue as well, framing it as a strange interplay between Obsidian's tendency to eliminate tedious features and make games altogether make more sense (stuff like the New Vegas companion wheel, or the Pillars of Eternity shared inventory and the stash), and their habit of also leaving some tedious busywork - like, in my view, the camping limit stuff outlined in this thread - in.

 

There's a "Stash" option which means you have no inventory limit and never have to worry about weight limits. This is good, because weight limits are extremely irritating and games enforcing them only serves as pedantic busywork. However, the game then doesn't allow you to rest at will to recover between fights. You have four campfires and can only rest four times before having to resupply. So you go into tough areas, make some progress, rest, make some more progress, rest, etc until you run out of campfires and have to run back to the nearest inn or store to buy some more. Which is pretty much just pedantic busywork. Obsidian giveth and Obsidian taketh away... (taken from "The Wertzone" blog)

 

Vocalised my views on the matter pretty well.

 

 

For the three casters, there is objectively more tedious busywork in PoE than IE/NWN games.  (Until level 9, when the game is over 70% done).

[VioNectro]

Going back to town to rest is nothing but busy work. If you get to a fight and you can't get through it with your wizards per encounter/auto-attack etc, and you got no more supplies to rest then you up and run to town and run back. The act of running to town and coming back is busy work; nothing more nothing less. This behavior can only be stopped if you had a "awake" buff that builds up over time, which will make the player choose between do I try with my "time awake buff" or do I reload (as in wizard spell launcher magazine); instead of this though we get the "I'm tiered penalty - which is perfectly normal and understandable But if you want to stop people spam resting whenever it suites them then you got to make the lose something useful for combat when resting, as well as reloading the wizard.

[pipgrandpa]

[Edited immediately after posting for format error]

 

So... currently I'm inside Raedric's Hold. My party are low on health and spells and I have zero camping supply. (forgot to buy some in the first place...

 

Naturally I wanted to get out of the hold and rest and resupply - but I can't because the game crashes when my party tries to exit the hold.

 

Then I found out patch 1.03 which can fix this was out just yesterday. Sweet!  

 

Oh wait....

 

...

...

...

 

"For those of you that have Origin and GOG, we are working with them to patch their platforms as soon as possible. We are hoping for all platforms to be up-to-date within a few days."

 

Darn it... So I'll have to wait for "a few days", possibly throughout Easter by the end of which I'll have to go back to my daily grind in real life with little time to continue enjoying the buggy-by-tradition game.

 

Curse you devs!!! Why! Why!

Don't be too hard on yourself though - it's Easter, so take some time and have some fun if possible while I continue to love and hate you.

 

Well, if I have to wait I may as well take this opportunity to rant about something that's been bugging me in PoE, and something that has boggled my mind since the dawn of the IE era.

 

So, no more encumbrance or inventory management is fantastic, but what is up with the restrictive camping mechanics???

 

You limit players' resting frequencies by imposing a "camping supplies" limit. Seemingly this will push players to really stategise for combat efficiency but

by the virtues of environment designs, players can still backtrack for more supplies. Ultimately players end up resting just as often (maybe less but not to a meaningful extent) as they would without the camping restriction, and wasting time travelling, because

when you have to throw everything you got to get through a battle (BTW I only have the hard difficulty experience) you have to through them all unless you are a S/L freak (something I used to be and it was NOT fun), when you have to rest for the next battle you have to rest, and when you have to backtrack because you run out of camping supplies you have to backtrack!

 

Also, why does the "resting" or "per rest" mechanics still exist in digital gaming in the year 2015???

 

If the first few instances of translating the paper-and-pen D&D rules to computer gaming mechanics can be called a phase of elaborate experimentation, that phase is long gone. By now devs should have realised that resting is neither suitable nor a necessary compromise for digital gaming as it is for tabletop RPGs!

 

Really, I hated resting in IE games and the Neverwinter Nights serious for how pointless it is.

 

IE games - You rest and you roll to see if you get ambushed. In the case that you do, if you can still take on the enemies after you felt the necessity to rest, good on you but don't expect you can get much (experience, gold...) out of them, otherwise you get wiped in the ambush and you reload and click on that rest button to start the whole thing. Or you don't get ambushed at all and recover for free which the devs so relentlessly feared would make the game easier than what they want you to feel. In other words

resting and everything about it only bring a false sense of challenge, which, once you realise, you can't help but scream in your mind - WHAT'S THE BLOODY POINT!

 

Neverwinter Nights - you wait for a few seconds...

...

...

...

bloody pointless...

 

Nevertheless, in the long lineage of D&D inspired video games, a recent title did do the resting mechanics justice, namely Dragon Age, and by saying do them justice, I mean doing away with them.

 

Don't tell me that resting is necessary for RP or realism. Game devs should write in there 101 pamphlet that

REALISTIC =/ FUN! And realism should only be maintained to the extent that it does not hurt suspension of disbelief and/or adds to the FUN element!

 

And please spare me the argument that resting is tied to ability/spell consumptions, because

the tie is in no way inherent! I had no doubt that all those IE games I have loved along the years could have been just as fun if all the spells in them had been per encounter, if done right. And the key to doing it right, you see, is

all about the designs of all the combat encounters. This should not be something unfamiliar to the game devs of the IE games because

when I was playing through them again and again, I can feel how much care and thoughts were put into every combat scenario for them to work with other aspects of the games and made these games such classics! You can't possibly suggest that by getting rid of the pointless and annoying "resting", the devs will suddenly become cripple at making good games, CAN YOU?!

Edited April 4, 2015 by pipgrandpa

[Parsong]

Resting mechanic from the IE games was actually quite awesome, and perfect IMO.

[ComplyOrDie]

I enjoy preparing for an adventure, you go to an inn nearby get a good resting bonus and stock up on food and camping supplies. As a qualified adventurer you really shouldn't be forgetting that kind of thing. It's preferable to the everything is on a cool down system in my opinion, resulting in use your best spells whenever available, and it's better than the spam rest after every fight because there's no reason not to system.

[Rack]

I'm not sure I get the camping system, seems like something that is a nice idea in principal but falls down in practice. It's been well noted that supplies are limited by player patience which is clunky at best.

 

Secondly it's really weird that resting supplies are limited by difficulty. I get that it's a lever you can pull to make battles harder, but the balancing of wizards is going to be all over the place. Are they balanced for hard and twice as powerful as they should be in normal, or balanced for normal and hopelessly underpowered in hard?

 

Or is the combat system only intended to be a fluff option anyway?

[PrimeJunta]

Nice rant.

 

Per-rest abilities and spells that you have to ration strategically are a pretty crucial component of the IE-style experience though, rest-spam abusers notwithstanding. DA lost an entire dimension of strategic gameplay by having the party with all abilities available in every encounter.

 

Try it out: use per-encounter abilities every encounter, spells strategically when needed, then start using them more liberally when you're starting to run low on health or getting fatigued, and really open up in boss battles. You might discover a whole new tension and dimension to the gameplay.

[AnarchyJesus]

at very lest they should make it so that if you have high survival skills you get more camping limits. how the hell are a bunch of freaking druid/ranger survival masters unable to camp because they are what? out of homemade cookies? f that.

Edited April 4, 2015 by AnarchyJesus

[VioNectro]

I'm not sure I get the camping system, seems like something that is a nice idea in principal but falls down in practice. It's been well noted that supplies are limited by player patience which is clunky at best.

 

Secondly it's really weird that resting supplies are limited by difficulty. I get that it's a lever you can pull to make battles harder, but the balancing of wizards is going to be all over the place. Are they balanced for hard and twice as powerful as they should be in normal, or balanced for normal and hopelessly underpowered in hard?

 

Or is the combat system only intended to be a fluff option anyway?

As the player is frustrated/angered from needing to camp more often his decision making prowess falters resulting in increased difficulty :-P

[Gallenger]

You can also tell several areas were built with resting in mind - because you find some extra camping supplies in nice areas lol.  Last night I was trolling around twitch and found a guy playing, his party was all in the red, they were out of spells, and he was out of camping supplies (hard mode)... He said "welp, I see a box over there, but it's guarded - I guess worst case I die, best case it has some camping supplies" after an extremely tense battle with some relatively easy enemies (Kobolds/Xaurips or however that's spelled) he found, that indeed, that container had in it, 1 camping supply lol. 

 

It really takes me back to the classic days of FPS gaming, where health packs and other pick ups were distributed ever-so carefully throughout levels, and were also a thing you had to kind of dread (since the devs wouldn't give you a ton of armor and health unless they were about to take it all away soon lol). 

 

I never felt particularly punished by the rest mechanics in this game. 

 

The simple fact is, when you don't need to worry about rest due to regenerating health and/or the existence of a mana pool, encounters are a *lot* easier to design, because you don't need to worry about grinding your players into the dust.  There are plenty of classes in this game that don't worry about rest (canter and cipher), but the 3 most robust casting classes all have the rest limitation because their spells are simply so powerful in combat relative to the other abilities. 

 

The OP points to dragon age, but I should note that the optimal party in Dragon Age was to use all 3 mages (including the PC as a mage), because mages were by far and away the most powerful class in that game hands down - it was also entirely possible to solo the game on the highest difficulty as a mage with very little actual thought being given to anything lol.  That was something that was purposefully avoided here in the interest of making the other 10 classes more fun/viable lol.  A mage with the proper spell could also 1-2 shot the most powerful enemy in the game with Mana clash :/

Edited April 4, 2015 by Gallenger

[LadyCrimson]

I prefer the limited supply method over the resting mechanic that felt like it was constantly "interrupted" by a random attack encounter, meaning I'd have to fight that off, try to rest again and possibly have another interruption. Sometimes 3 or 4 in a row. That drove me crazy, personally. Sure it didn't happen every rest but it was often enough to become annoying as heck when I just wanted to rest and move on.

 

So I prefer limited camping with no interrupts. Even if it occasionally feels pretty cheesy to be "camping/resting" right outside of the big baddie's front door after killing all of his area minions, so to speak.

[Zorfab]

Unfortunately the supplies end up being pointless due to the static nature of the dungeons (at least everything I´ve seen so far). Going back to village for more supplies is just a minor nuisance, equivalent of few savescum-rests from other games with random encounters thrown in for resting in dangerous area.

 

The way it would actually work was if party was locked in dungeon and could not retreat before either completing it or perishing horribly in it. If you actually HAD to think about using the big per rest spells and abilities, and potions/consumables.

[PrimeJunta]

Dunno about you but it's enough of a nuisance to keep me thinking strategically, and I haven't had to backtrack for supplies yet.

[Sedrefilos]

Resting in IE games was the worst mechanic I've ever encountered in a video game. But the way it is implemented in Pillars (with per-rest and per-encounter abilities and limited supplies), I like it a lot. It's much much much more immersive and strategic.

[vattghern]

That's some really annoying text formatting you have there bro, stopped reading halfway through.

 

The system works for me, I postpone resting as long as possible (usually until a guy or two are almost dead) and only travel back to town/keep if I absolutely have to, if only to avoid loading screens. It gets the job done but if you're really determined to cheese it, you can grab more supplies from the stash (after the patch I think) up to you.

 

Never liked random encounters in D&D, glad they don't have them here.

[Hogfather]

Dunno about you but it's enough of a nuisance to keep me thinking strategically, and I haven't had to backtrack for supplies yet.

 

Yup. I've backtracked once after a couple of bad engagements vs Spirits, and it was annoying. I've entered fights with lower health and resources than I should have just to buy a little more time before I need to use supplies. I've run encounters with fatigued characters for the same reason.

 

The need to preserve rests (on Hard) has added a dimension to the game that would otherwise be lost. I like having limited resources to manage and use, otherwise every ability is per encounter ... which means you no longer really have the space in the game for powerful reserve powers that you use with greater discretion.

 

You can mod in unlimited supplies anyway, right? 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Hogfather

[NathanH]

Not a particularly big fan of the rest restrictions in this game, but they're not too bad. I tend to prefer unlimited resting with no interruptions, and just play naturally until I can't get any further without resting.

 

When I did some BG2 modding the way I approached resting restrictions was to track number of rests in an area, and progressively beef up the enemies (typically pre-buffing them and similar things) so you can rest as much as you like but if you rest when you don't really need to you're just making it harder for yourself. Not particularly much harder, I never wanted to block serial resters from progressing, but just a little bit to incentivise not resting where possible.

[Dongom]

Resting in IE games was the worst mechanic I've ever encountered in a video game. But the way it is implemented in Pillars (with per-rest and per-encounter abilities and limited supplies), I like it a lot. It's much much much more immersive and strategic.

 

Agreed when it comes to health and fatigue.

 

Disagreed with spells. There is nothing tactical or unique about playing Wizard like an auto-attacking Ranger for a majority of the game.

[Stratosj]

Unfortunately the supplies end up being pointless due to the static nature of the dungeons (at least everything I´ve seen so far). Going back to village for more supplies is just a minor nuisance, equivalent of few savescum-rests from other games with random encounters thrown in for resting in dangerous area.

 

The way it would actually work was if party was locked in dungeon and could not retreat before either completing it or perishing horribly in it. If you actually HAD to think about using the big per rest spells and abilities, and potions/consumables.

Play the game you want to play. If you want to have fun that way, impose a restriction on yourself to finish the dungeon with the supplies you have and if you fail, reload to the very start of the dungeon. I actually share your opinion but these games just can't ever be made for everyone. What one loves the other one hates. Luckily you can play the game any way you want and you should not let anything get in the way of that.

[LadyCrimson]

If you have a party of 5 or 6, so far I haven't had to rest/camp very often and have yet to need to run out to get more mid-area session. I use per-encounter skills most of the time and save per-rest skills only if a battle isn't going well. If you're going it solo or with just 2 or something, however, I can see it being a lot more restrictive feeling. However...

 

 

but if you're really determined to cheese it, you can grab more supplies from the stash (after the patch I think) up to you.

...if this is what they did to fix the issue of supplies disappearing if you had the max already when trying to loot something, that's kind of disappointing. Would make more sense to me to just not allow them to be looted yet. Then after using one you could go back and loot it. But oh well, better than going "poof" completely I suppose.