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Call me a nitpicker, but this really breaks immersion for me (pseudo-Middle English)


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See the attached screenshot with the contents of a book I found. Am I the only one whose gears are ground by this kind of ineptitude?

 

I'm probably one of the biggest proponents for correct grammar and the importance of it on this forum, however it's a game in a fictional world. Who is to that isn't grammatically correct in that world? Who is to say that even if it is grammatically incorrect for that world, that the fictional author of the book didn't fudge it up.

 

So what? Chalk it up to a grammatically inept monk, priest, historian, or whomever wrote the book, and move on. The contents of no in game book should break your immersion unless it's contents have real world references, references to something that doesn't belong in Eora (ie: book is schematics for the Death Star), or breaks the 4th wall in some manner.

 

 

That's like arguing that it's okay for misspelt words and incorrect grammar to be in a book because in the narrator's world it is correct spelling and grammar.

 

That's silly, and it wouldn't hold up to any sort of literary scrutiny unless those mistakes were intentional and consistent. But the questions arise: are they intentional? Are they consistent? If not, then we cannot be lenient in our critique of this aspect, and certainly not when regarding a game as this; this game is meant to be for the higher-minded individuals, with developers even saying things so bold as "it's not ****ing baby ****". With words filled with such confidence and certainty, how can we, in the face of ****ing baby ****, allow it to pass us by?

Edited by Natusake
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It' hilarious when people forget that proper grammar in Old English was not much of a thing. It wasn't uncommon to write things down how people thought it should be spelt. And if people disagreed... well, the important part is that it's understood what the author meant.

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It' hilarious when people forget that proper grammar in Old English was not much of a thing. It wasn't uncommon to write things down how people thought it should be spelt. And if people disagreed... well, the important part is that it's understood what the author meant.

 

What Varana said. Although spelling was up to the individual and very variant, the grammar and conjugations were, for the most part, consistent.

 

Also, this isn't Old English, nor is it even Middle English. Old English is Ænglisc, and Middle English is this. What we are concerning ourselves with is Early Modern English. If you're good, you might be able to understand Middle English after you learn what some of the new unused runes mean. Old English is a bit harder, though.

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It' hilarious when people forget that proper grammar in Old English was not much of a thing. It wasn't uncommon to write things down how people thought it should be spelt. And if people disagreed... well, the important part is that it's understood what the author meant.

 

What Varana said. Although spelling was up to the individual and very variant, the grammar and conjugations were, for the most part, consistent.

 

Also, this isn't Old English, nor is it even Middle English. Old English is Ænglisc, and Middle English is this. What we are concerning ourselves with is Early Modern English. If you're good, you might be able to understand Middle English after you learn what some of the new unused runes mean. Old English is a bit harder, though.

 

 

When I was at University back in the day, we had to read (and actually understand) Beowulf in the original Old English.

 

That was fun.

 

Chaucer (Middle English) was significantly easier.

Edited by Daemonjax
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One more, in case any Obsidian QA mole lurks here, fishing for errors to fix in the next patch... 

 

http://imgur.com/mzKfAVr

Yeah, I find those examples much more jarring than the ones regarding Old English. I found some typos and screw-ups rather unpleasant.

 

I frankly don't mind small syntax or ortography mistakes in Old English, nowadays. At least, not in the 'your dumb' era.

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Most people cant even grasp modern english, much less  reading ole english prose, in a video game, from a book, on a random shelf, in a dungeon, when you were supposed to be finding out about the Hollowborn. Think of the kids dude!

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Spelling =/= Grammar. :)

 

Yeah it does, actually. Case in point: "They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

 

How do you know this sentence contains improper grammar? Because of the word "be," which should be spelled is, and because of the word do, which should also be spelled is.

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See the attached screenshot with the contents of a book I found. Am I the only one whose gears are ground by this kind of ineptitude?

 

I'm probably one of the biggest proponents for correct grammar and the importance of it on this forum, however it's a game in a fictional world. Who is to that isn't grammatically correct in that world? Who is to say that even if it is grammatically incorrect for that world, that the fictional author of the book didn't fudge it up.

 

So what? Chalk it up to a grammatically inept monk, priest, historian, or whomever wrote the book, and move on. The contents of no in game book should break your immersion unless it's contents have real world references, references to something that doesn't belong in Eora (ie: book is schematics for the Death Star), or breaks the 4th wall in some manner.

 

 

That's like arguing that it's okay for misspelt words and incorrect grammar to be in a book because in the narrator's world it is correctly spelling and grammar.

 

That's silly, and it wouldn't hold up to any sort of literary scrutiny unless those mistakes were intentional and consistent. But the questions arise: are they intentional? Are they consistent? If not, then we cannot be lenient in our critique of this aspect, and certainly not when regarding a game as this; this game is meant to be for the higher-minded individuals, with developers even saying things so bold as "it's not ****ing baby ****". With words filled with such confidence and certainty, how can we, in the face of ****ing baby ****, allow it to pass us by?

 

 

They removed encumbrance, they removed ammo, they gave us a 'stash', they played babysitter in regards to their rest mechanic, they dumbed down the fighting options quite a bit compared to IE by removing other in combat and out of combat options...  The game is not for 'higher minded' individuals.

 

That aside. Yea... it is okay 'for misspelt words and incorrect grammar to be in a book because in the narrator's world it is correctly spelling and grammar.'  The grammar police have no jurisdiction on anything attributed as being written by or said by a fictional character within a fictional world. Which is the case with the OP's example. A fictional character in a fictional world is perfectly within their rights to gunk up grammar all they want, and whether it's intentional or consistent or not matters not.

 

You misspelled 'misspelled' by the way. That's incorrect grammar. At least in American English, and the forum even indicates it as so. But does that really matter? Perhaps if the theory that universe in which we live is just some grand computer simulation on some higher dimensional being's computer is true then in their world there's some grammar police entity bent out of shape about your grammar whoopsies. ;)

Edited by Valsuelm
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4 mil is clearly not enough to hire a pro editor, but 'twas enough to feel entitled to remove a certain poem

I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

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Oh look, another person who finds [insert trivial reason] that their immersion is destroyed.

 

Just play the f-ing game already. It will never be 100% perfect for 100% of the people. 

How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

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Shows that Eothasians are boorish. wink.png

 

I stumble over errors like these, too, but sadly, I'm not particularly upset about them; they've become too frequent, I fear. "Huh? Writer obviously didn't know what he was doing; let's move on."

Except when it's intentional, but this is even rarer.

 

Edit: Pallegina's Vailish is a recognisably different language. In this case, it's a set of very specific endings in a completely English poem. I doubt that that's on the same level.

But the explanation with the old-fashioned Eothasians is nice (and probably true).

 

She also pronounces "que?" as "quay?".

 

Which isn't a problem or anything... it's just funny. I call her "Captain Quay".

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Spelling =/= Grammar. :)

 

Yeah it does, actually. Case in point: "They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

 

How do you know this sentence contains improper grammar? Because of the word "be," which should be spelled is, and because of the word do, which should also be spelled is.

 

 

That would be considered a conjugation error, which falls under grammar. It is the wrong word; it is not misspelt. "be" is certainly spelt in that manner. This is correct spelling. It is, instead, incorrect grammar.

 

 

That's like arguing that it's okay for misspelt words and incorrect grammar to be in a book because in the narrator's world it is correctly spelling and grammar.

 

That's silly, and it wouldn't hold up to any sort of literary scrutiny unless those mistakes were intentional and consistent. But the questions arise: are they intentional? Are they consistent? If not, then we cannot be lenient in our critique of this aspect, and certainly not when regarding a game as this; this game is meant to be for the higher-minded individuals, with developers even saying things so bold as "it's not ****ing baby ****". With words filled with such confidence and certainty, how can we, in the face of ****ing baby ****, allow it to pass us by?

 

 

They removed encumbrance, they removed ammo, they gave us a 'stash', they played babysitter in regards to their rest mechanic, they dumbed down the fighting options quite a bit compared to IE by removing other in combat and out of combat options...  The game is not for 'higher minded' individuals.

 

That aside. Yea... it is okay 'for misspelt words and incorrect grammar to be in a book because in the narrator's world it is correctly spelling and grammar.'  The grammar police have no jurisdiction on anything attributed as being written by or said by a fictional character within a fictional world. Which is the case with the OP's example. A fictional character in a fictional world is perfectly within their rights to gunk up grammar all they want, and whether it's intentional or consistent or not matters not.

 

You misspelled 'misspelled' by the way. That's incorrect grammar. At least in American English, and the forum even indicates it as so. But does that really matter? Perhaps if the theory that universe in which we live is just some grand computer simulation on some higher dimensional being's computer is true then in their world there's some grammar police entity bent out of shape about your grammar whoopsies. ;)

 

 

I said this game is *meant* for higher-minded individuals. The developers intended for the game to be complex and require good strategic thinking. Actually, my conclusion is a bit close to yours. My point is that, although the developers have attempted to make it as such, there are cases when it is not; as a result it is not completely what it is meant to be.

 

It DOES matter, however, if grammar mistakes and misspellings are consistent and intentional. If they are, then they have the capacity to contribute to the narrative in a positive way. The books written by Cormac McCarthy are good examples of this. If they are not, then, them being not even an intentional effect placed by the author, they likely wont contribute much to the narrative, and they will create a disconnect which breaks immersion, as was the case with the OP. Fanfictions can be a good example of this. I'm not saying that it is "illegal" for such misspellings and grammar errors to take place. Instead, I am saying that those misspellings and grammar errors may detract from the narrative.

 

Aside from your red herring at the end, it CAN matter. I personally prefer to use of the British version of the word.

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How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

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How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

 

What's particularly funny is anyone with that degree should know that real Middle English texts are hilariously all-over-the-place in their use of grammar, spelling, and so on, often inconsistent even within a document.

 

Don't even get me started on Latin. Romanes did not spel or grammer or number very gud, even when carving into stone. VIIII indeed!

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See the attached screenshot with the contents of a book I found. Am I the only one whose gears are ground by this kind of ineptitude?

 

I'm probably one of the biggest proponents for correct grammar and the importance of it on this forum, however it's a game in a fictional world. Who is to that isn't grammatically correct in that world? Who is to say that even if it is grammatically incorrect for that world, that the fictional author of the book didn't fudge it up.

 

So what? Chalk it up to a grammatically inept monk, priest, historian, or whomever wrote the book, and move on. The contents of no in game book should break your immersion unless it's contents have real world references, references to something that doesn't belong in Eora (ie: book is schematics for the Death Star), or breaks the 4th wall in some manner.

 

 

That's like arguing that it's okay for misspelt words and incorrect grammar to be in a book because in the narrator's world it is correct spelling and grammar.

 

It is okay. Just one example: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Feersum-Endjinn-Iain-M-Banks/dp/1857232739

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How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

 ^ My new sig. Thanks!

How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

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