Memorials problem.

[SKull]

ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.

 

This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.

 

I`m sorry but you are wrong. Creating a climate of political correctness where people self censor to avoid opprobium is the very essence of modern censorship and it was pioneered by the Soviets. They were also the ones who coined the term "political correctness" although in Soviet propaganda it had positive connotations. The whole thing is very simple: in order for something to be a crime there needs to be some action. You can not jail someone for criminal intent if they are unable to follow it up with a criminal act. That`s the basis of the western legal system. Yet sometimes one gets the feeling that people are more upset at examples of politcally incorrect speech and allegedly offensive statements than they are at actual crimes going on. Just one example for me personally, if I had to choose which offended me more, a racist comment or exposed political corruption then I wouldn`t even notice the racist comment. One is an outrageous crime full stop and the other, while possibly both crude, vulgar and offensive, is harmless unless followed up by action. And no it isn`t and shouldn`t be a crime to hurt someone`s feelings. You might take a pop on the nose if you spout off to the wrong person but that should be the extent of it.

As long as there is even one actual crime going on for us to concentrate on I personally don`t think we should stifle or censor any speech, even the speech I disagree with. In fact particularly not the speech I disagree with. Free speech legislation exists to protect unpopular speech, not popular speech. Popular speech doesn`t need legal protection.

 

The list of things you are not allowed to say, criticize or talk about without beiing insulted and called names in the west is already getting pretty long as it is. And that is what is truly unworthy of a free society.

Edited March 29, 2015 by SKull

[Arouet]

 

And if they agree with him? What then? Are you going to demand your money back? Start a petition? Boycott all of Obsidian's products from here on? Because they did something with their game you didn't agree with?

 

None of you can define censorship other than "the developer doing something I disagree with". If you agree with it, then it's ok to put pressure on them? See how rediculous this is?

 

Am I a dirty outsider because I think pulling it's a good idea? Even if I backed the KS the first day it came out? Obviously yes, because you don't agree with it.

Yes Then I want my money back and they can delete my game from steam or disable my key. I will never tolerate censorship I never did or will. Since I live in Germany Censorship is a very serious topic for me since I often have to suffer from it in terms of video games. 

 

Developers doing what they want is censorship?

 

Like I said, censorship just means doings thing things you don't want. Doing what you do want? That's listening to your customers!

Edited March 29, 2015 by Arouet

[cirdanx]

 

This thread has caused my opinion of the intelligence of the average Obsidian "fan" on these forums to plummet.

 

Seriously, if you can't handle a developer not wanting a bigoted joke in their game, I'll provide you with a free tiny violin before the door hits you on your ass on the way out.

Sure. But again  They already approved it so they never thought it was bigoted in any way.  I can handle a developer not wanting something in . But I can not handle people who believe they can change something that was created by an artist just because they don't like it and then put social pressure to get it removed. 

 

And Honestly I am sick of these people.  Be offended as much as you want but never force your morals on others. 

 

 

Exactly, i wish more people would realize that but forcing believes and morals on others has always been there, its something that shapes societies most of the time. (directly and indirectly)

 

As for the thread, so far it has been mostly civil and i think there is a clear support for Obsidian to just not getting bullied/shamed/pressured (call it what you want) into something they may not want to do because of internet and possible biased game journalistic drama.

[Arghanim]

Outrage culture is getting reaaal old about now.

 

"Nice game you've got there. It would be a shame if someone came along and called you transphobic."

 

Please, please don't cave to this ridiculous request, as it is only the beginning. They're just feeling you out right now. These people are not noble champions of much of anything, and the backgrounds of e.g. the two Twitter-people trying to initially stir this up are... Well. Extensive and verifiable if anyone is actually wondering whether engaging with / catering to them is a good idea.

 

Have to say, when I saw the backer text in game the other day, "transgender" is not a word that ever went through my mind, nor did I think "shame" had anything to do with the (over)reaction of the person who, in my reading by accident in his shocked state, fell off a cliff. Then again I am but a simple-minded barbarian far, far from the recently self-proclaimed cultural and moral mecca around the San Fransisco Bay Area...

 

Thank you for a masterpiece of a game, and I beg you - don't tarnish it or yourself by engaging in this garbage.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Arghanim

[Cantousent]

Actually, now that we're not calling each other scum and the whatnot, the thread has the sort of debate I always like. Gamer geeks having a heated and spirited debate without holding it against one another. Hell, even the two or three people who've engaged me personally in this debate have earned a beer that I would gladly buy them in real life if we were to meet. Either that or a water with a twist if alcohol is offensive. :Cant's big beefy grin icon:

 

The trick is not to have personal animosity over a limerick we probably wouldn't even know existed if not for the controversy over it.

[Sakai]

And if they agree with him? What then? Are you going to demand your money back? Start a petition? Boycott all of Obsidian's products from here on? Because they did something with their game you didn't agree with?

 

None of you can define censorship other than "the developer doing something I disagree with". If you agree with it, then it's ok to put pressure on them? See how rediculous this is?

 

Am I a dirty outsider because I think pulling it's a good idea? Even if I backed the KS the first day it came out? Obviously yes, because you don't agree with it.

It seems to me like you really want to be the victim here. And i can define censorship. When you don't want something to exist just because you disagree with it, this is censorship. 

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

 

 

ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.

 

This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.

Yes it is. If you really believe that censorship  can only be enforced by the Government you really should wake up from your utopia world you live in. 

 

 

 

 

ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.

 

This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.

 

WTF kinda nonsense is this? None of this would be considered if Twitter cry babies hadn't started a campaign for self censorship. This is what their goal is. Take out the stuff we don't like. That's their goal. How in the hell is that not censorship? 

 

 

 

 

ITT: people complaining about censorship, despite not knowing what censorship is.

 

This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one.

 

This certainly is a censorship issue. It may not be, say, a first amendment violation, and nothing illegal is going on, but it's still a discussion of censorship.

 

 

 

"This isn't a free speech issue, people. Stop trying to make it into one."

 

Yes, it is.  Obsidian chose to include something in the game and now SJW bullies are attacking them, shaming them, threatening them with murder in order to censor their work that they chose to put in. If Obsidian takes it out now it's simply giving in to bullies. PERIOD.

 

Meanwhile, back in the real world, here's what's actually happening!

 1) Obsidian exercised their free speech rights in publishing the game.

 2) Other people exercised their free speech rights in objecting to some content.

 3) Obsidian will now exercise their free speech rights by either leaving the game as is, or by changing it.

 

See how that works?

 

It's not a violation of rights, but it's still censorship.

 

If, for example, a documentary "bleeps" out curse words, they are still self-censoring even though it was their decision and they weren't forced to by the government. 

 

If Obsidian decides to remove the joke they are still self-censoring, even though it is legal and within their right to do so.

Edited March 29, 2015 by YourVoiceisAmbrosia

[Darji]

 

Ok another  solution.

 

Let the backers decide through a poll if Obsidian feels pressure through social mobs. 

 

Or as the best solution: a Patch which gives you the option to disable these messages. Done Everyone should be happy. 

 

 

Second solution is better but flawed. The first isn't smart, business wise. The product's out. It "belongs" to more than just the backers now. (Although, really it belongs to no one but Obsidian.)

 

How is the second solution flawed? 

 

Turn it off by default and have an uncensored option in there. Done.  If you are still offended by it you clearly just pushing some agenda no one sane should listen to. 

[mindswayer]

 

If presented in that context? Sure. I don't think it'd be as much an issue.

 

Actually the poem might be one of the most in-context things in the game submitted by a backer. Pillars of Eternity has a dark world, with a serious story (like pretty much every obsidian game) dealing with some kind of philosophical matters (whole science vs. religion thing), and prejudice is something that is present. So a character killing himself because he was tricked into sleeping with a man is not out of context in any way.

If being out of context is a problem you should actually remove every single backer-related tombstone, because for the most part they're just random sentences or quotes from someone (I remember seeing some Cthulhu-related  ones).

[Arouet]

Backers who think the line should stay, go ahead and argue for it. But stop pretending you speak for all of us. I think it's a one ****ty joke and it's beyond satire that there's this much anger about it, BEFORE Obsidian has made any decision at all

Edited March 29, 2015 by Arouet

[Darji]

 

 

And if they agree with him? What then? Are you going to demand your money back? Start a petition? Boycott all of Obsidian's products from here on? Because they did something with their game you didn't agree with?

 

None of you can define censorship other than "the developer doing something I disagree with". If you agree with it, then it's ok to put pressure on them? See how rediculous this is?

 

Am I a dirty outsider because I think pulling it's a good idea? Even if I backed the KS the first day it came out? Obviously yes, because you don't agree with it.

Yes Then I want my money back and they can delete my game from steam or disable my key. I will never tolerate censorship I never did or will. Since I live in Germany Censorship is a very serious topic for me since I often have to suffer from it in terms of video games. 

 

Developers doing what they want is censorship?

 

Like I said, censorship just means doings thing things you don't want. Doing what you do want? That's listening to your customers!

 

No they are already putting social pressure on the developers ad that is the best way to censor in this day and age. And these people know exactly how it works. Organize a mob on social networks and done. 

[Arouet]

 

 

 

And if they agree with him? What then? Are you going to demand your money back? Start a petition? Boycott all of Obsidian's products from here on? Because they did something with their game you didn't agree with?

 

None of you can define censorship other than "the developer doing something I disagree with". If you agree with it, then it's ok to put pressure on them? See how rediculous this is?

 

Am I a dirty outsider because I think pulling it's a good idea? Even if I backed the KS the first day it came out? Obviously yes, because you don't agree with it.

Yes Then I want my money back and they can delete my game from steam or disable my key. I will never tolerate censorship I never did or will. Since I live in Germany Censorship is a very serious topic for me since I often have to suffer from it in terms of video games. 

 

Developers doing what they want is censorship?

 

Like I said, censorship just means doings thing things you don't want. Doing what you do want? That's listening to your customers!

 

No they are already putting social pressure on the developers ad that is the best way to censor in this day and age. And these people know exactly how it works. Organize a mob on social networks and done. 

 

As opposed to the mob in this thread?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Arouet

[DrTuring]

Backers who think the line should stay, go ahead and argue for it. But stop pretending you speak for all of us. I think it's a one ****ty joke and it's beyond satire that there's this much anger about it, BEFORE Obsidian has made any decision at all

No one is claiming that EVERYONE thinks it.

Only the majority. There's a difference. Just look at the threads. About 5 people saying to purge it, and about 30 or so defending it at least.

[Ausir]

 

It seems to me like you really want to be the victim here. And i can define censorship. When you don't want something to exist just because you disagree with it, this is censorship. 

 

 

Obsidian was already "censoring" other backer memorials because they didn't fit the world they created. They are now free to decide that this one doesn't even though it slipped through the cracks, and remove it after the game's release. They can ask the backer to write a new one or refund him.

 

And I wonder if you'll call *me* an outsider too, even though I've been here from the start?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Ausir

[GrinningReaper659]

Actually, now that we're not calling each other scum and the whatnot, the thread has the sort of debate I always like. Gamer geeks having a heated and spirited debate without holding it against one another. Hell, even the two or three people who've engaged me personally in this debate have earned a beer that I would gladly buy them in real life if we were to meet. Either that or a water with a twist if alcohol is offensive. :Cant's big beefy grin icon:

 

The trick is not to have personal animosity over a limerick we probably wouldn't even know existed if not for the controversy over it.

 

Water offends me. "Never touch the stuff. Fish **** in it."

[Abelian75]

None of you can define censorship other than "the developer doing something I disagree with". If you agree with it, then it's ok to put pressure on them? See how rediculous this is?

 

No, that's not true.  I think it's a stupid joke and if it was my game I wouldn't have put it in.  But we CAN define censorship.  It is a person's speech being suppressed.  That's what we fear is happening here.

 

You're totally right that it's possible virtually nobody at Obsidian is ok with a joke like this, and that it just slipped through the cracks.  If that's legitimately the case, then of course it's fine for them to remove it.  That wouldn't be censorship, that would be a production mistake.

 

That said, there is a broader picture here.  This is far from an isolated case.  It keeps happening, and it's happening more and more often.  We just saw something similar happen a couple days ago, and the people campaigning are the same crowd every time.  It's reasonable to believe that these people have the power to force Obsidian to change it out of fear of the mob, and it's reasonable to stand against that.

 

But you're right, in this one specific case, it is possible that they just made a mistake.  Because of the broader picture, it's still reasonable for us to make our voices heard and try to give some assurance that they will be supported if they do not do what the vocal outrage crowd demands.

 

I don't care about the joke.  It's dumb.  I care about taking a stand against a group of people obsessed with fear, shame and power.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Abelian75

[Creslin321]

BUT IF THEY DON'T AGREE WITH IT, THAT MEANS IT HAS TO BE CENSORSHIP!

 

It's definitely censorship, but I think the flawed assumption here is that all censorship is "bad."

 

For example, I'm pretty sure that just about any major website would not allow the KKK to write articles for them.  Is this censorship?  Probably.  Is it "bad?"  Definitely not.

[Sakai]

Backers who think the line should stay, go ahead and argue for it. But stop pretending you speak for all of us. I think it's a one ****ty joke and it's beyond satire that there's this much anger about it, BEFORE Obsidian has made any decision at all

Anger is not about the joke, but about people who on one hand spread hashtags like "killallmen" and on another claim to have some high morale ground and organize mob squads to destroy everything they don't like and silence any opposition.

[SemiJames]

Censorship solves nothing.  

Obsidian, don't cave to this blight on humanity.  

Just don't. 

Why give the people who support killing all men the pride of anything?

Nothing but pure censorship will please them. 

The only losers will be the gamers. Who, y'know... made this game possible in the first place. 

[Arouet]

 

BUT IF THEY DON'T AGREE WITH IT, THAT MEANS IT HAS TO BE CENSORSHIP!

 

It's definitely censorship, but I think the flawed assumption here is that all censorship is "bad."

 

For example, I'm pretty sure that just about any major website would not allow the KKK to write articles for them.  Is this censorship?  Probably.  Is it "bad?"  Definitely not.

 

If that's censorship then the term is absolutely meaningless. That makes not allowing me to use your forum account to post my political opinions censorship.

[DrTuring]

 

Obsidian was already "censoring" other backer memorials because they didn't fit the world they created. They are now free to decide that this one doesn't even though it slipped through the cracks, and remove it after the game's release. They can ask the backer to write a new one or refund him.

 

And I wonder if you'll call *me* an outsider too, even though I've been here from the start?

 

The difference is that that was BEFORE the game was out. Now the game IS out. People bought the game. And people bought the game expecting all the content offered.

[Darji]

 

 

It seems to me like you really want to be the victim here. And i can define censorship. When you don't want something to exist just because you disagree with it, this is censorship. 

 

 

Obsidian was already "censoring" other backer memorials because they didn't fit the world they created. They are now free to decide that this one doesn't even though it slipped through the cracks, and remove it after the game's release. They can ask the backer to write a new one or refund him.

 

And I wonder if you'll call *me* an outsider too, even though I've been here from the start?

 

Yes they already censored. Which is self censoring which is totally fine since they felt it was not fitting and they had no pressure at all back then.BUT and here is the big but, This was already approved and therefore it should stay in no matter what.   

[Ausir]

 

 

Obsidian was already "censoring" other backer memorials because they didn't fit the world they created. They are now free to decide that this one doesn't even though it slipped through the cracks, and remove it after the game's release. They can ask the backer to write a new one or refund him.

 

And I wonder if you'll call *me* an outsider too, even though I've been here from the start?

 

The difference is that that was BEFORE the game was out. Now the game IS out. People bought the game. And people bought the game expecting all the content offered.

 

 

Most of the people wouldn't even read the backer memorials, so it's not as if a vital part of the game will be removed.

[Badmojo]

Sawyer is not Obsidian. He is an employee. Obsidian put in. This FACT. We wouldn't be having this discussion if they hadn't CHOSEN to put it in. The fact that Sawyer is supportive of a group who loathe him and the company he works for is sad.

Reminds me of David Gaider, a card carrying hardcore SJW who did everything in his power to make the perfect SJW game with Dragon Age 2 and 3.  What happened?  Of course the SJW attacked him and accused him of hisrepresenting gay characters (which is ironic since he is gay) and other "problematic" issues in the game.

 

I have mad respect for Sawyer, but I really scratch my head at why anybody would align themselves with a group that bullies others that they disagree with (which is pretty much everybody) and openly loathes even those (like game devs) that are on their own side.  Seriously, just why?

[PrimeJunta]

I don't care about the joke.  It's dumb.  I care about taking a stand against a group of people obsessed with fear, shame and power.

 

Gamergaters, you mean?