Why do camp sites disappear?

[Athrogate]

Deleted my post. All I wanted to say was: I agree with Mansen: The camp supply system could have been redone. Am I meant to predict how many times I need to sleep? Do I need to predict the size of the dungeon? It feels like a cheap solution to make it harder, instead of making the combat more challenging and dynamic. And as Mansen said, I can backtrack at any time and restock. The only cost is some copper and annoyance. I hope they redo the camp supply system as they improve the combat system.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Athrogate

[Sensuki]

Currently there's not a current mod for unlimited camping supplies. It can be made pretty easily although the console command does the job anyway.

[Robik]

Right now, I am in under the temple area (first village), on hard, and i have to rest pretty much after any encounter. I need to use everything to survive and even that is often not enough.

 

Hard mode + 2x camp supplies (why exactly hard mode limits you CS even more?) is just extremely tedious, if you ask me. I may change the opinion later, but that is how i see it. Though, maybe if i actually hired extra companion in the inn, that would not be a problem, but i dont want to.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Robik

[PrimeJunta]

@Robik The temple dungeon is extremely hard for a solo level 2/3 character, or even with PC + Aloth + Edér immediately after you recruited them. Do something else, find a couple more companions, gain a level or two, then come back.

 

I.e. the problem isn't the camping supplies, the problem is that you're attempting an optional dungeon above your level. Which is fun if you want the challenge of course.

 

(I'm finding Hard just about right actually. I haven't had to backtrack to rest yet, unless you count backing up out of a "no camping" area once to camp a level above. Reached a boss fight with virtually no spells left and three characters at "red" health...)

[Robik]

@Robik The temple dungeon is extremely hard for a solo level 2/3 character, or even with PC + Aloth + Edér immediately after you recruited them. Do something else, find a couple more companions, gain a level or two, then come back.

 

Yeah, could be. I'l check other places to see if they are easier for me. Thanks.

[Elerond]

To me it feels that there is infinity resting in the game already. As you can find from every longer dungeon 1-4 camping supplies and I constantly need to leave them behind as my supply limit is full. And even worst case I have had to use only 3 rest supplies to clear dungeon (Temple in Gilded Vale with Aloth, Edér and hired adventurer), currently I am Defiance Bay in act 2 (so quite beginning still). And I am playing on hard difficulty.

 

If you feel that you need to rest more and fights eat too much your resources you probably should test easier difficulty level (if you aren't already playing on easy), as there is no shame to learn new rule set in easy difficulty, especially in game that is designed to be challenging. But I would not for first thing that I do go and remove one of those factors that make game bit more challenging. But that is just me in these days.

[Robik]

... And even worst case I have had to use only 3 rest supplies to clear dungeon (Temple in Gilded Vale with Aloth, Edér and hired adventurer) ...

 

You had an extra companion, could make big difference, so it is not IMO comparable to my situation.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Robik

[CameraLuv]

I don't want to rest after each battle. I just want to be able rest when I feel like it, which is when health gets too low and all spells are used up. I see no point in trying encounters which I know are suicidal. I'd rather "cheat" a little and enjoy the game. It'll still be plenty of challenge, mostly, but in certain places it'll get a small boost.

 

For anyone interested, here's a table for CE that allows unlimited camping supplies (and other things, including unlimited spell use). Use in whatever way makes the game more fun for you

http://forum.cheatengine.org/viewtopic.php?p=5585670

[Tigranes]

If you're having to rest after every single encounter, that's usually a pretty good sign that it's too difficult for you for one reason or another. 

[geobio]

Mansen is so right, calling limitations, "design", is really bad faith to me.

 

And you can see a lot of these limitations that make this PoE all but a spiritual successor of BG series.

 

Not because graphics are here that the spirit follow ....

Edited March 28, 2015 by geobio

[Snugglebutts]

Well I'm currently trying it without a workaround but its pretty annoying.

 

For the realism part: If someone pierces my shoulder with his (probably dirty) dagger, the only thing that will happen in 8 hours is me catching a major infection. Regardless on what ground my fever shivering body is placed or if I cook water or not.

Also as someone who goes real camping (not hiking for one day but traveling for weeks and months), the idea of taking a new blanket and tent for everytime I lay down to rest is pretty hilarious. Wood for a fire (and even for days straight) is covered with chopping down a single tree or (for one night) even just walking the woods for an hour. As long as you aren't in the desert thats really not a problem.

Food and water are stored seperatly in this game and btw in my magicall hideout wich I can access everytime and anywhere. And thats the only thing I can't find enough of in most enviroments.

And even if I'm on the road and find an abandoned home, I have to use my one time tent and blanket to sleep three feet away from a real bed.

 

I see that especially in NWN resting after every single fight and pretty much everywhere was game breaking but there are so much other options like only resting in special, cleared areas, wandering monsters and so on wich aren't breaking the "tactical requirements" but also aren't annoying as this.

[Athrogate]

double post

Edited March 28, 2015 by Athrogate

[Athrogate]

By saying stuff like "you should try something more easy" "that zone is not meant for you then" and so on, you COMPLETELY MISS THE POINT!! It's not making the game more challenging, it's not making any difference whatsoever, it's putting a macro restriction on a dungeon / zone whatever, which clearly can be bypassed by going back and restocking, hence the word arbitrary. Don't try to validate the system with any arguement you can find. Ask yourself this: Why do we need another layer of resource management? Because combat is not hard enough / The entire endurance system. Well, sorry to say it, but if you create a combat system that requires another system for it to work, then it's not a good system. Especially not when you at any given time can go back and get fresh camp supplies.

 

As for realism, people who adventure stay on the road for months without having to resupply every third night. I really hope Obsidian can find a way to make their combat system work without this supply limit. 

[Tigranes]

It does make the game more challenging, because you have to go into some battles with lower health and missing some spells. This is clearly different from entering every combat at full health and full complement of spells, which makes the game drastically easier - and more than that, qualitatively changes your experience of combat. 

 

Oh, and no, the solution is not to make combat harder. If you made combat much harder and then allowed unlimited resting, it would become far too difficult to play without resting. In that case you might as well also make health heal instantly after each battle, just like endurance. And you might as well make every single spell per-encounter. Of course, when you do that, you diminish the fun of the combat, because now you just blast through your most powerful spells each battle every time in the same way, and you just go in gung ho not caring about damage as long as it doesn't kill you. Ironically, POE is already a bit like that compared to IE games, because endurance resets and some abilities are indeed per-encounter. I don't know about you, but I don't want to play a game where I am supposed to be going deeper into a dangerous dungeon but there is zero concept of attrition and I am always as fresh and prepared as I just got out of bed. I want fun situations like running low on camping supplies and spells and having to devise different tactical solutions to the last remaining fight. 

 

The system works best when you're not trekking back to town every 3 fights to get more supplies, obviously. If you choose to use such an inconvenient solution, that is not the problem of the feature. It would be like saying "it sucks that I can't save during combat, now I have to run away from enemies after killing some of them in order to save, and that takes way too long."

[Robik]

I cleared the rest of the temple, eventually (except last batch of mobs that are not needed for quest), with only Edér and Aloth. But it WAS major pain, mainly because teleporting mobs. After that, I cleared other areas and they were not that tough in comparison.

 

So, hard is not that hard, I was afraid that every place will be as annoying as the temple, but that is thankfully not the case.

[Athrogate]

Mister 9k posts wrote: "Oh, and no, the solution is not to make combat harder. If you made combat much harder and then allowed unlimited resting, it would become far too difficult to play without resting. In that case you might as well also make health heal instantly after each battle, just like endurance. And you might as well make every single spell per-encounter. Of course, when you do that, you diminish the fun of the combat, because now you just blast through your most powerful spells each battle every time in the same way, and you just go in gung ho not caring about damage as long as it doesn't kill you. Ironically, POE is already a bit like that compared to IE games, because endurance resets and some abilities are indeed per-encounter. I don't know about you, but I don't want to play a game where I am supposed to be going deeper into a dangerous dungeon but there is zero concept of attrition and I am always as fresh and prepared as I just got out of bed. I want fun situations like running low on camping supplies and spells and having to devise different tactical solutions to the last remaining fight. 

 

 

The system works best when you're not trekking back to town every 3 fights to get more supplies, obviously. If you choose to use such an inconvenient solution, that is not the problem of the feature. It would be like saying "it sucks that I can't save during combat, now I have to run away from enemies after killing some of them in order to save, and that takes way too long."

 

1) Stop expanding it to "save during combat" or other ignorant comparisons. 

2) It does not make the game more challenging, stop, just stop saying it. It's extremely annoying listening to you talk about a mechanic outside of combat that affects combat and therefore makes combat harder. 

2) We are supposed to not go back to town, cause then we are making it easier? Oh, sorry I should have read that memo about trying to play with as few supplies as possible.

4) On that note, it's a self inflicted restraint where it's up to the player if he/she wants to restock. Thus, AGAIN, IT HAS ZERO IMPACT on the challenge of combat. I wonder, why did we not need this in the old IE games? There, they either had a no-rest scenario (because you were in a place where it was not natural to sleep) or you could sleep. 

3) I'm quite sure you will continue to argue for your wonderful camp supplies for years to come. Won't change any of the facts stated in this thread, which are all correct. 

4) Why don't you use only shields in half the dungeons? It would be more difficult then I think, or only use weapons in some encounters. Let's make lots of rules to make combat more challenging. Oh wait, it's the same as the supplies, it's just a cheap solution since they were not able to make combat dynamic and challenging enough as it is. 

5) What is the most memorable challenges in old IE games? Lich fights, dragon fights etc. Not "oh do you remember when we had to fight 8 fights in a row without sleeping?". If that is what you want in a game like this, go ahead, but respect other opinions, WHO ARE NOT WRONG. Supplies does NOTHING for difficulty. 

 

IF we had respawns in dungeons, then supply camps would actually matter. I would not argue that it's a good solution, but at least it would matter. As it is now, it's one thing, and one thing only: A TIME SINK.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Athrogate

[CameraLuv]

I'm considering opting for hardest difficulty, while setting supplies to unlimited and/or maybe spells unlimited. Perhaps that will recreate some of the IE feeling I'm missing?

I am not looking for an ironman challenge The game should be fun, not grueling. Tedium and timesinks are the exact opposite of fun.

[Voqar]

Well clearly camping is a "game" concept of consumable resources - your firewood, food, water, bandages, etc aren't infinite.  Your campsite probably does "remain" if you wanna RP it that way but it's just  a small useless are with a burned out fire, some litter, and some buried poop.

 

The idea is to make players balance resources as a whole, to manage health over the course of battles and have limited ability to dump ALL abilities every battle and freely rest.

 

I actually really love the way they've set this up.  You get the convenience of everybody healing up endurance automagically after fights so you don't have the tedium of sitting there casting healing spells and whatnot after every fight, yet you still have to pace your party resources vs resting to maximize/extend your trips out.  Like other systems in this game, I think it's very slickly done and very cool.

 

There are consumables and don't forget to you can craft too - if you're using TAB to highlight regularly you should be gathering plants plus other junk from looting.  Look for the crafting button in your inventory screen and go to town.

 

And that brings up another slick system.  It's "gamey" to have enchanting and crafting cost money (where exactly does that money go when crafting in the middle of nowhere, for ex) but it's a good game system to help get rid of player money.  This game has a lot of "gold sinks" via enchanting, crafting, hiring custom characters, and the keep (on top of buying from vendors) to make money something else that has to be managed and balanced.  I like it.

 

[Athrogate]

I'm considering opting for hardest difficulty, while setting supplies to unlimited and/or maybe spells unlimited. Perhaps that will recreate some of the IE feeling I'm missing?

I am not looking for an ironman challenge The game should be fun, not grueling. Tedium and timesinks are the exact opposite of fun.

 

I installed the IE mod, which removes the stupid engagement system and at the same time opens console commands. You can just press console and type "rest" then if you want to rest. Currently playing on path of the damned with unlimited rest. It's pretty damn close to the old BG feeling now. Every fight is very tactical, almost too difficult, but at least I use every spell I can and can position like old times. It's WAY better than vanilla with engagement and rest limitations. 

[Mansen]

Well clearly camping is a "game" concept of consumable resources - your firewood, food, water, bandages, etc aren't infinite.  Your campsite probably does "remain" if you wanna RP it that way but it's just  a small useless are with a burned out fire, some litter, and some buried poop.

 

The idea is to make players balance resources as a whole, to manage health over the course of battles and have limited ability to dump ALL abilities every battle and freely rest.

 

See the responses about it being wrong since you can rest in a ton of places for free - Just saying. If you're going to call something "well balanced", you should probably be sure you actually know what you're talking about.

[aiqidar]

I see that especially in NWN resting after every single fight and pretty much everywhere was game breaking but there are so much other options like only resting in special, cleared areas, wandering monsters and so on wich aren't breaking the "tactical requirements" but also aren't annoying as this.

 

I thought NWN 2 handled it perfectly - it removed an annoyance that didn't really add anything to the game. The real problem with NWN wasn't that you could rest anywhere; it was that the enemies were too easy.

 

The "realistic camping" arguments being put forward here would make a lot of sense for a proper survival game. Which Pillars of Eternity very clearly isn't.

[Darkpriest]

The only dungeon i backtrack is the one beneath the stronghold. There is a reason for having your own comfy stronghold bedroom. It only makes sense to backtrack for free rest. No other dungeon or wilderness area made backtrack. I did reload an encounter occasionally.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Darkpriest

[TheUsernamelessOne]

They really ought to just remove resting entirely. That way everyone loses. Once a character becomes maimed, their adventuring career is over unless they have a death wish. They must retire to the stronghold to nurse their hideous wounds for the rest of their short, miserable lives while you shell out coin to hire some fresh new blood to take their place. That's realistic. Maybe you could read their souls to read about the agonizing memory of their inevitable final defeat and shame.

 

I really don't understand why they added the camping supplies mechanic but whatever. You never actually need to camp. Once you clear an encounter you're never in a position where you can't just trot back to town and sleep at the nearest inn.

 

Here is the truth: if you are playing the game correctly, you won't need to rest in the middle of a dungeon. I am not trying to be condescending or insulting. It's just factual. The way the game is designed, if anyone in your party is taking significant amounts of damage in a fight, any fight, something has gone wrong and it is probably your fault. Unless you're a Monk, I guess. A lot of the classes don't even have any abilities that need to be recovered through rest.

 

The point is that the tools are all there for you to absolutely control pretty much every encounter you can get into at any given point in the game. You don't even have to have gear specific to the encounter (or camping supplies), you just have to build your characters correctly and use correct tactics. When I first played I regularly got wiped in pretty much every encounter (and camping gear isn't much use then). I got frustrated so I went and studied what you're supposed to do on-line; all the stuff the game does not bother to teach you except through frustrating trial-and-error but that is vital to your success. I can't play the game the way I want to play it, but I can play it well enough to win. If I can do it then anyone can, because all I did was sit through that Beginner's Guide guy's videos (well, I skipped the parts where he talked about the UI for 30 minutes).

 

Anyway, don't worry about camping supplies. It's a non-issue. Just get good at the game and it won't matter whether you can rest in the middle of a dungeon or not. You don't need to mod anything out or cheat. Despite what people say, it's not actually difficult and it doesn't require much thought, just a lot of fiddly pausing and micromanagement. It's actually easier than the Baldur's Gate series because all your abilities work on everything and you don't have to worry about ever using any kind of special equipment because there isn't any.

[TrueMenace]

Unlimited camping supplies = 0 challenge mode.

 

No thanks. Play easy if you are really struggling to handle 2 camping supplies. I bet 98% of you guys aren't using consumables either.

[aiqidar]

Unlimited camping supplies = 0 challenge mode.

 

No thanks. Play easy if you are really struggling to handle 2 camping supplies. I bet 98% of you guys aren't using consumables either.

 

While the tactical combat system here is no doubt a great improvement upon games like BG and NWN, it's still by far the least interesting aspect of this game (aside from the special encounters). Making it more of a burden than it needs to be doesn't really make sense.

 

I play on hard mode because, as I understand it, the difficulty mode actually determines which monsters spawn and playing on easy would mean that I might not get to see certain creatures, or I'd see them later than normal. And I want to see as much of the game's content as I can.