Pickpocketing

[abrasax]

Congrats on going gold! I'm one of the original Kickstarter backers, and I've looked forward to this day for a while!

 

I've held off on following the development too closely on purpose, to avoid any and all spoilers.

 

Today, however, I decided to check out the finalised gameplay mechanics.

 

Did I understand things correctly, that the only form of pickpocketing in the game is through scripted dialogue? No free-roaming pickpocketing, like in the BG/ID games?

 

If this is the case, you may count me severely disappointed. I backed this came because you advertised it as being in the same vein as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

 

Pickpocketing was a core mechanic for the Rogue classes. Without that, a Rogue is just a mediocre DPS class. In fact, that is what it feels like - shoehorning the classes into the boring MMORPG mold: tank, healer, dps, etc. BG/ID had more soul than that.

 

I am sad that you chose to continue the trend of gameplay simplification. I understand that there might be a financial motivation to do so, but it's just not what I expected for a game that advertises itself as a spiritual successor to the BG/ID games.

 

I hope I'm wrong. Please tell me I'm wrong.

[Night Stalker]

Did I understand things correctly, that the only form of pickpocketing in the game is through scripted dialogue? No free-roaming pickpocketing, like in the BG/ID games?

 

Yes.

[Shdy314]

What a load of ****. Pickpocketing was a stupid feature outside of getting 2 rings of Kangaxx (which was an exploit anyways) and nobody put points in that over trapfinding, stealh (truly core mechanics that are in PoE) or detecting illusions. CORE mechanic my ***. It was a teeny tiny part of the rogue class and basically forgettable in every IE game. It also screwed games up turning people hostile forcing reloads.

 

It coming up in dialogue is a much better way to do it.

 

Obsidian also promised to try and make every skill actually useful and when they realized they wouldn't be able to make something like pickpocketing stand on it's own they subsumed it into dialogue which is a good thing.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Shdy314

[Luckmann]

Congrats on going gold! I'm one of the original Kickstarter backers, and I've looked forward to this day for a while!

 

I've held off on following the development too closely on purpose, to avoid any and all spoilers.

 

Today, however, I decided to check out the finalised gameplay mechanics.

 

Did I understand things correctly, that the only form of pickpocketing in the game is through scripted dialogue? No free-roaming pickpocketing, like in the BG/ID games?

You are correct. There is no pickpocketing outside of conversations, scripted dialogues or events, no.

 

If this is the case, you may count me severely disappointed. I backed this came because you advertised it as being in the same vein as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

Well, while PoE is good in many ways, if you are expecting it to be a lot like the IE games, you'll be severely disappointed indeed. Some for better and much for worse, PoE is a strong departure from the IE mechanics and gameplay formulas. While this isn't enough to make it a bad game, it's not wrong of you to feel betrayed on the topic of BG/IWD similarity, since you are again correct in saying that it was largely pitched as a "return to form". But in many, many ways it is not.

 

Pickpocketing was a core mechanic for the Rogue classes. Without that, a Rogue is just a mediocre DPS class. In fact, that is what it feels like - shoehorning the classes into the boring MMORPG mold: tank, healer, dps, etc. BG/ID had more soul than that.

A lot of the core mechanics, especially for rogues (now that I think of it) are completely different, and if you are looking for the rogue experience as according to the Infinity Engine, PoE doesn't offer anything like that. Stealth works completely differently and anyone can specialize in it, there's no pickpocketing, trapfinding and disarming can be done by anyone (and lockpicking; same skill for all three of those functions, which can potentially result in the funny situation where the one that stealths actually can't scout for traps).

 

I am sad that you chose to continue the trend of gameplay simplification. I understand that there might be a financial motivation to do so, but it's just not what I expected for a game that advertises itself as a spiritual successor to the BG/ID games.

 

I hope I'm wrong. Please tell me I'm wrong.

I... want to say that you're wrong, but you really aren't. Now, again, I think that PoE will come out as a great game, I really do. There are many good points to the game, and a lot of things can be improved upon in expansions and sequels.

 

As it is, I still recommend the game, and I'm still convinced that the storyline and the storytelling will be second-to-none, as we've seen in previous Obsidian titles. Hopefully they'll keep working on it and next time there may be other leads in development, or they'll continue to iterate and evolve the system, mechanics and such based on relevant input.

 

What a load of ****. Pickpocketing was a stupid feature outside of getting 2 rings of Kangaxx (which was an exploit anyways) and nobody put points in that over trapfinding, stealh (truly core mechanics that are in PoE) or detecting illusions. CORE mechanic my ***. It was a teeny tiny part of the rogue class and basically forgettable in every IE game. It also screwed games up turning people hostile forcing reloads.

 

It coming up in dialogue is a much better way to do it.

 

Obsidian also promised to try and make every skill actually useful and when they realized they wouldn't be able to make something like pickpocketing stand on it's own they subsumed it into dialogue which is a good thing.

That's just not true. Pickpocketing in the IE games wasn't working properly because it was bad, but because it was utterly, utterly and completely overpowered. With high pickpocketing, you could steal everything that wasn't artificially nailed down, sometimes stores even allowed you to steal from them and then sell it back to the same store.

 

I'll be the first one to say that Pickpocketing did not work well in the IE games, but it was not because of the popular argument that it was bad or not useful. If anything, it was because it was too useful. There is no reason free-form pickpocketing could not work in PoE, if it had been included and accounted for from the beginning, and I can't think of a single game to date that actually plays well with pickpocketing (Although Divinity: Original Sin certainly did scrape the surface in part of the Cyseal questline).

 

It has a tremendous potential to be a fun and engaging skill that encourages creative problem-solving and quest interactivity, but it can be hard to pull off well and to balance. That is still no excuse, however, to not include it. It would be different to say "We just didn't have time to do it well", it's another entirely to say "It can't be done" or "It had problems in game X, so we're not doing it for Y".

[Shdy314]

 

 

That's just not true. Pickpocketing in the IE games wasn't working properly because it was bad, but because it was utterly, utterly and completely overpowered. With high pickpocketing, you could steal everything that wasn't artificially nailed down, sometimes stores even allowed you to steal from them and then sell it back to the same store.

I'll be the first one to say that Pickpocketing did not work well in the IE games, but it was not because of the popular argument that it was bad or not useful. If anything, it was because it was too useful. There is no reason free-form pickpocketing could not work in PoE, if it had been included and accounted for from the beginning, and I can't think of a single game to date that actually plays well with pickpocketing (Although Divinity: Original Sin certainly did scrape the surface in part of the Cyseal questline).

It has a tremendous potential to be a fun and engaging skill that encourages creative problem-solving and quest interactivity, but it can be hard to pull off well and to balance. That is still no excuse, however, to not include it. It would be different to say "We just didn't have time to do it well", it's another entirely to say "It can't be done" or "It had problems in game X, so we're not doing it for Y".

Good thing I never said it can't be done or shouldn't be included. It is included in PoE as far as we know.

It would absolutely have a major role to play in say a Thief game where a free form pickpocketing skill would be worth the effort and not so out of place. But the idea it was a big part of the IE games is ridiculous. It's a skill with a lot of creative uses in PnP but in a CRPG it amounts to a player spamming the skill on everyone and reloading if it causes a fight.

You can get creative uses out of it by good designers including the option when appropriate in dialogues. As PoE supposedly does. We'll have to wait for release to see how well.

 

I mentioned the exploitative power of pickpocketing in IE but that was it's problem. Use it in a stupidly powerful way (Like planting explosives on everyone in Fallout) or don't really use it at all. Or grabbing stuff off NPCs before they walked off. Like Drizzt. You could nick some notable stuff but it was pretty much all exploits.

D:OS? The game where pick pocketing and stealing in general ruins the economy even more than RPG players usually ruin the economy?

 

Anyways it's all just quibbling. Whether too powerful or not useful enough we seem to both agree it's usage was not a core part of the IE experience. Not even for rogues. The vast majority of people talk about stealthy rogues disabling traps and backstabbing enemies to instant death. I suppose you could argue it was a bigger part for bards. It was their only thief skill.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Shdy314

[teknoman2]

gothic had pickpocketing that worked through dialogue. if you had the skill, you had a dialogue option to pilfer something from whoever it was you were talking to.

it's not impossible that it will be the same thing here too. instead of clicking on someone to steal from him, do it through a conversation option

[ashtonw]

I think Obsidian has already come to terms with the fact that everyone is nostalgic for different features of the IE games and not everyone will be 100% satisfied. As for pickpocketing, how many people ever did that outside of rare instances (like snagging that cloak off the guy in the drug den in BG1)? Is it a core mechanic for bards too? 

[rjshae]

Pickpocketing is probably better suited to sandbox games.

[Valmy]

That's just not true. Pickpocketing in the IE games wasn't working properly because it was bad, but because it was utterly, utterly and completely overpowered. With high pickpocketing, you could steal everything that wasn't artificially nailed down, sometimes stores even allowed you to steal from them and then sell it back to the same store.

 

Maybe I do not get the distinction. I very rarely ever pickpocketed for this reason. It was not needed except in very rare occasions but it was incredibly overpowered and broke the game. I very rarely see an implementation of this ability that is not like this.  It should just be for pilfering a ring or some coins or something, so a rogue class has some nice extra money. I just do not understand the point of having a feature that ruins the game when used without even exploiting.

 

Man it gets really stupid in the Elder Scrolls series. You can "pickpocket" people's clothes off their back. Bethesda is in Maryland and I presume they speak English there and know that 'pickpocket' does not mean literally stealing everything with pockets.

 

Now this does not hurt me at all, these are all single player games so I am not forced to use stupid broken mechanics. But in my mind it was bad in the IE games.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Valmy

[Azmodiuz]

Congrats on going gold! I'm one of the original Kickstarter backers, and I've looked forward to this day for a while!

 

I've held off on following the development too closely on purpose, to avoid any and all spoilers.

 

Today, however, I decided to check out the finalised gameplay mechanics.

 

Did I understand things correctly, that the only form of pickpocketing in the game is through scripted dialogue? No free-roaming pickpocketing, like in the BG/ID games?

 

If this is the case, you may count me severely disappointed. I backed this came because you advertised it as being in the same vein as Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale.

 

Pickpocketing was a core mechanic for the Rogue classes. Without that, a Rogue is just a mediocre DPS class. In fact, that is what it feels like - shoehorning the classes into the boring MMORPG mold: tank, healer, dps, etc. BG/ID had more soul than that.

 

I am sad that you chose to continue the trend of gameplay simplification. I understand that there might be a financial motivation to do so, but it's just not what I expected for a game that advertises itself as a spiritual successor to the BG/ID games.

 

I hope I'm wrong. Please tell me I'm wrong.

 

I've personally been complaining about this for months. No thieving skills. I hope they either surprise us, as in (haha syke we wer elying there is in fact theiving-) or its in the expansion or a very good / large patch.

 

If they had explained there was no thieving, they might have had less backers potentially, so maybe they deliberately didn't mention it.

[Luckmann]

 

That's just not true. Pickpocketing in the IE games wasn't working properly because it was bad, but because it was utterly, utterly and completely overpowered. With high pickpocketing, you could steal everything that wasn't artificially nailed down, sometimes stores even allowed you to steal from them and then sell it back to the same store.

 

Maybe I do not get the distinction. I very rarely ever pickpocketed for this reason. It was not needed except in very rare occasions but it was incredibly overpowered and broke the game. I have yet to see an implementation of this mechanic that isn't. I just do not understand the point of having a feature that ruins the game when used without even exploiting.

 

Man it gets really stupid in the Elder Scrolls series. You can "pickpocket" people's clothes off their back.

 

 

I think D:OS does it pretty well. There's quests that can be solved in part thanks to pickpocketing (as an alternative) and pickpocketing merchants and such isn't great enough to destroy the game economy, even when pickpocketing is maxed out. Granted, it's got some weird artificial limitations that I think could be done better, but it's sorta like pizza, even when it's bad it's pretty good. The main problem with D:OS is that it's not that heavy on the roleplaying and as far as I've gotten so far, there's like one questline that actually has some ambiguity and investigation to it.

 

D:OS also has the nice mechanic that allows you to actually inspect people before you attempt to steal their loot, which was sorely missing in the IE games; before you tried to pickpocket, you had no idea to know whether it was worth the risk or not, and once you had pickpocketed, you were SOL if you failed. You basically risked your neck for anything between 5 gold pieces and a level 7 scroll.

 

Elder Scrolls is probably the worst offender when it comes to pickpocketing wat-ness. Really good pickpockets CAN pretty much steal the shirt off your back, but you shouldn't expect them to not notice once you walk away, and, like, full armours? Just. No.

 

The distinction I wanted to make with what you quoted was just that a very common complaint about Pickpocketing in the IE games (primarily BG2) is worthless, a gimmick, and doesn't really affect anything, and so on and so forth. I merely wanted to emphasize that while Pickpocketing had issues, the most-oft mentioned issue wasn't it, and there's nothing saying you couldn't do that better.

 

Yes, there were issues, but the issues weren't what people think they were, and all those issues are solveable.

 

The inclusion of pickpocketing through scripted interactions and dialogues is great. Amazing. Something the IE games were sorely missing aside from maybe 1-2 encounters throughout the entire series (I have this vague memory of it appearing once or twice in PS:T, and maybe once in BG1 or something, but it's vague at best). But I hate the exclusion of pickpocketing beyond that.

 

I think Obsidian has already come to terms with the fact that everyone is nostalgic for different features of the IE games and not everyone will be 100% satisfied. As for pickpocketing, how many people ever did that outside of rare instances (like snagging that cloak off the guy in the drug den in BG1)? Is it a core mechanic for bards too?

Argumentum ad populum. The amount of people that engaged in it is immaterial. I can only say that I and many others engaged in it extensively, when playing rogues and thieves and that it was a mechanic that added positively to the game. Obviously, those that did not engage in it nor found it interesting or did not realize it's potential won't be fazed by it's exclusion. Edited March 18, 2015 by Luckmann

[ashtonw]

None of the features were set in stone during the kick starter. If you really believe obsidian deliberately lied to you to steal your money, maybe its time to ask for a refund.

[Quadrone]

Wow, one more to add to the growing list of "core" things Obsidian has omitted and thereby cruelly betrayed their promise of a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate.

Pickpocketing.... check!

[Lephys]

None of the features were set in stone during the kick starter. If you really believe obsidian deliberately lied to you to steal your money, maybe its time to ask for a refund.

You wouldn't be the first person to do that. But you'd be one of a select few. 8P

[Stun]

Whether too powerful or not useful enough we seem to both agree it's usage was not a core part of the IE experience.

Define "core part", Because I'd certainly include Pickpocketing as a vital part of my Rogue runs of both BG1 (Algernon's cloak, Cloak of Balduran) And Icewind Dale 1 (ring of free action, necklace of missiles)

 

Plus, lets not forget that Planescape Torment is one of the IE games too, and pickpocketing has quite a few massive quest based uses in PS:T (you can pickpocket Cassius's bandages from him, thus forcing him to give you Trias's sword instead of having to fight him for it; And evidence of Trist's innocence can be had by pickpocketing both Lenny and his boss, etc.)

 

And in all IE games, save for IWD2, you can make money pickpocketing...or save money.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Stun

[Shdy314]

Define "core part", Because I'd certainly include Pickpocketing as a vital part of my Rogue runs of both BG1 (Algernon's cloak, Cloak of Balduran) And Icewind Dale 1 (ring of free action, necklace of missiles)

Plus, lets not forget that Planescape Torment is one of the IE games too, and pickpocketing has quite a few massive quest based uses in PS:T (you can pickpocket Cassius's bandages from him, thus forcing him to give you Trias's sword instead of having to fight him for it; And evidence of Trist's innocence can be had by pickpocketing both Lenny and his boss, etc.)

 

And in all IE games, save for IWD2, you can make money pickpocketing...or save money.

 

Thanks for bringing up the exploit of Algernon's cloak to prove my point about how people only cared to the extent they used it to get crazy crap off NPCs. And then the PS:T quest based uses which PoE can still have as I have pointed out multiple times now.

You don't need a pickpocket skill to have opportunities to steal in the game. That's what is perhaps getting lost in the knee jerk reactions. Like in PS:T you didn't need a break necks skill to kill some Dustmen. If it turns out there will be no opportunities via quests/dialogues etc. for larceny then that is a valid complaint I can get behind.

 

Core: a basic, essential or enduring part (as of an individual, a class or an entity) Now you're probably going to say it was a basic part of the rogue class and that is fair enough but I never said it wasn't a big part of the rogue shtick. I said as a whole free, roam pickpocketing was not an essential part of the IE games.

[Luckmann]

 

Define "core part", Because I'd certainly include Pickpocketing as a vital part of my Rogue runs of both BG1 (Algernon's cloak, Cloak of Balduran) And Icewind Dale 1 (ring of free action, necklace of missiles)

 

Plus, lets not forget that Planescape Torment is one of the IE games too, and pickpocketing has quite a few massive quest based uses in PS:T (you can pickpocket Cassius's bandages from him, thus forcing him to give you Trias's sword instead of having to fight him for it; And evidence of Trist's innocence can be had by pickpocketing both Lenny and his boss, etc.)

 

And in all IE games, save for IWD2, you can make money pickpocketing...or save money.

Thanks for bringing up the exploit of Algernon's cloak to prove my point about how people only cared to the extent they used it to get crazy crap off NPCs. And then the PS:T quest based uses which PoE can still have as I have pointed out multiple times now.

You don't need a pickpocket skill to have opportunities to steal in the game. That's what is perhaps getting lost in the knee jerk reactions. Like in PS:T you didn't need a break necks skill to kill some Dustmen. If it turns out there will be no opportunities via quests/dialogues etc. for larceny then that is a valid complaint I can get behind.

 

Core: a basic, essential or enduring part (as of an individual, a class or an entity) Now you're probably going to say it was a basic part of the rogue class and that is fair enough but I never said it wasn't a big part of the rogue shtick. I said as a whole free, roam pickpocketing was not an essential part of the IE games.

 

I would consider the rogue experience to be a core part of the IE games.

[bronzepoem]

What a load of ****. Pickpocketing was a stupid feature outside of getting 2 rings of Kangaxx (which was an exploit anyways) and nobody put points in that over trapfinding, stealh (truly core mechanics that are in PoE) or detecting illusions. CORE mechanic my ***. It was a teeny tiny part of the rogue class and basically forgettable in every IE game. It also screwed games up turning people hostile forcing reloads.

 

It coming up in dialogue is a much better way to do it.

 

Obsidian also promised to try and make every skill actually useful and when they realized they wouldn't be able to make something like pickpocketing stand on it's own they subsumed it into dialogue which is a good thing.

It seems you haven't played Fallout 2.

[bronzepoem]

I write about this on my topic before.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66550-design-a-pickpocketing-mechanic/

 

Some games did bad job on pickpocketing like BG or DA:O,but that doesn't means you can just delete this feature.

My sister cook a bad rice,it doesn't mean I will refuse all rice in future.

[Suhiir]

I usually play rogue type characters in games and so obviously have my own veiws on pick pocketing.

While I love to see it included in games I hate they way most implement it. Snagging a few coins, a ring, or a similar small item is fine.  But items of clothing, swords, or in fact significant magic items (or the games equilivent thereof) just makes it effectively an exploit.

[Shdy314]

Seems you didn't play Fallout 2.

While I know you didn't read my post after that one. 

 

I mentioned the exploitative power of pickpocketing in IE but that was it's problem. Use it in a stupidly powerful way (Like planting explosives on everyone in Fallout) 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Shdy314

[Shdy314]

 

I write about this on my topic before.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66550-design-a-pickpocketing-mechanic/

 

Some games did bad job on pickpocketing like BG or DA:O,but that doesn't means you can just delete this feature.

My sister cook a bad rice,it doesn't mean I will refuse all rice in future.

People love to have the discussion that's taking place in their head rather than the one actually occuring. The complaint was about the pickpocketing SKILL being removed. We have no idea if PoE will contain any pickpocketing options in the game. If they don't then we can bemoan the lost opportunity.

[bronzepoem]

 

Seems you didn't play Fallout 2.

While I know you didn't read my post after that one. 

 

I mentioned the exploitative power of pickpocketing in IE but that was it's problem. Use it in a stupidly powerful way (Like planting explosives on everyone in Fallout) 

 

Yes,I didn't read your post clearly.My fault.

[bronzepoem]

 

Double post.

Edited March 19, 2015 by bronzepoem

[bronzepoem]

 

Define "core part", Because I'd certainly include Pickpocketing as a vital part of my Rogue runs of both BG1 (Algernon's cloak, Cloak of Balduran) And Icewind Dale 1 (ring of free action, necklace of missiles)

Plus, lets not forget that Planescape Torment is one of the IE games too, and pickpocketing has quite a few massive quest based uses in PS:T (you can pickpocket Cassius's bandages from him, thus forcing him to give you Trias's sword instead of having to fight him for it; And evidence of Trist's innocence can be had by pickpocketing both Lenny and his boss, etc.)

 

And in all IE games, save for IWD2, you can make money pickpocketing...or save money.

 

Thanks for bringing up the exploit of Algernon's cloak to prove my point about how people only cared to the extent they used it to get crazy crap off NPCs. And then the PS:T quest based uses which PoE can still have as I have pointed out multiple times now.

You don't need a pickpocket skill to have opportunities to steal in the game. That's what is perhaps getting lost in the knee jerk reactions. Like in PS:T you didn't need a break necks skill to kill some Dustmen. If it turns out there will be no opportunities via quests/dialogues etc. for larceny then that is a valid complaint I can get behind.

 

Core: a basic, essential or enduring part (as of an individual, a class or an entity) Now you're probably going to say it was a basic part of the rogue class and that is fair enough but I never said it wasn't a big part of the rogue shtick. I said as a whole free, roam pickpocketing was not an essential part of the IE games.

 

  Disagree.Of course I can't break THE Dustmen's necks via dialogues.I can only break very a few Dustmen's necks who are choosed by quest designer. Here is no free choice by players,while Obsidian always emphasize that they don't want control players,and give the choice back to 

players.

 

  It's totally not important if pickpocketing via dialogues or via a button. What we are complaining about is a pickpocketing mechanic.If you only can pickpocket a few NPCs who choosed by designer via dialogues,that's quests.If you can pickpocket anyone you want to pickpocket via dialogues,that's a mechanic. It's all about free choice.

 

Sorry for my poor English, it maybe very hard to understand