Can you respec?

[Sedrefilos]

You cannot respec... but you surely can respect one!

[Cantousent]

So, the question I have, being a new moderator on these forums (something that yields absolutely no street cred and doesn't endear me to Obsidzians (who probably don't realize I even exist) or members (who half the time wish I didn't)):  At what point do I snip material out of a thread?  I want to participate in this discussion because it's somewhat interesting.  I see an argument that becomes increasingly personal, and yet I see that both sides, while pummeling each other, still make interesting points.  The sheer wall o' text is probably a put-off for some folks, but then they can ignore the posts they don't like to read.  So, should I feel guilty that I'm not doing more to stop the eye gouging?  Or should I just accept that these things are going to happen and, as long as no one reports an overt offense and I don't see one, be glad that we have broad freedom to express ourselves in this forum?

 

Please do not use expressions like "Screw ."  Please don't call each other stupid or crazy or use other invectives.

 

For what it's worth, I have genuinely enjoyed what I've read of the arguments.

 

Now that I've disclaimed, I would point out as I did earlier that I don't see how respeccing is substantially different than the process we use at the beginning of the beta.  Take a character to level one, which preserves race, class, etc. and then bring your character up from there.  Yeah, I think that would be cheesy as hell, but I don't see why it would be particularly hard from a technical standpoint.

 

Also, Damn you Hiro, ya glorious wretch!  Now I want to restart IWD.  Thanks a lot, bud!  I might go see if there's some sort of enhanced edition out or coming out.  For the record, from my brief (75 hour) encounter with the beta, it seemed harder to create a hopeless character than in in the IE games.

[Gromnir]

for pj, clarification is good, but it brings us full circle.  

 

"Ah, but that's not the strawman. That's just dismissing my experience: i.e., that the very presence of respec cheapens the experience for me, whether I make use of it or not. It's the same reason I dislike broken mechanics which lead to easy but boring exploits. This may not bother you, but it bothers me, which is why I'm arguing against it."

 

see, we was ascribing rationality to your argument.  you spoke o' choice and consequences being vital.  as an optional feature, there is no way you need be concerned with choices and consequences

 

"The very presence of a respec in the game trivializes the character-building choices up to that point, and therefore greatly detracts from the experience for players who consider choice and consequence crucial to the computer role-playing game experience."

 

you were speaking for players and not only yourself.  the problem isn't strawman, but your endemic inability to express yourself... which we will return to in a bit. but again, if you is gonna retreat and make this a touchy-feely thing wherein you is claiming that mere presence o' a feature you never intend to use somehow cheapens your gameplay experience, then we is more than happy at the admission, 'cause you ain't using logic at all and any complaint about logic fallacies is complete pointless. 

 

"Thing is, those choices and consequences are every bit as central to my experience as role-playing choices and consequences. It's the other side of the coin: the impact I've had on the world, and the character I've become."

 

claiming we misrepresented you is gonna be tough.  you may have meant something far different than what you said, but the impact your choices "had" on the world would not be altered at all by respec, and as noted, the only way respec alters your character is if you use the option. but again, we got admission that this is a somewhat irrational and gut-level rejection o' the mere presence o' an optional respec feature.  stun similar shows true colors by revealing that he sees as cheating.

 

regardless, is no way to fight an irrational "feeling" argument, which woulda' saved everybody much effort if you had simple admitted.  nevertheless, you did finally come around and so am guessing that is a testament to... something.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71211-can-you-respec/?p=1587948

 

quizhang said better than pj and saved much time and effort.  we didn't respond to his post either 'cause, well, is no arguing feeling.   learn to use your words.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 21, 2015 by Gromnir

[Stun]

regardless, is no way to fight an irrational "feeling" argument,

You assume that your opponents here are making an "irrational feeling argument". They aren't. There are bottom line givens here. And that is what we're arguing.

 

Given #1: RPGs are about choice and consequence.

Given #2: A respec feature serves no function but to reduce or flat out remove the consequence from the equation.

 

It's Obvious, then, why you'd want a respec feature. You're a casual modern gamer. You want choice but no consequence. You applaud games like Skyrim, where you can build a savage Nord warrior....but still be able to be the Archmage of the College, without having to start over and rebuild yourself a mage.

 

You applaud games Like Dragon Age, where if you find a super powerful Sword with a strength requirement you don't meet, you can simply drink a potion of "we'll-bend-the-rules-for-you", so you can re-allot your stats, so you can meet the strength requirement, so you can use that sword! <gag>

 

You're probably not going to enjoy PoE, my friend. So my advice to you would be to save yourself the "frustration" and "disgruntlement", and focus your attention and energy on.... IDK....Witcher 3? Or some other game coming out soon designed for casual modern gamers who can't stand to face down the consequences of their choices?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

 

regardless, is no way to fight an irrational "feeling" argument,

You assume that your opponents here are making an "irrational feeling argument". They aren't. There are bottom line givens here. And that is what we're arguing.

 

Given #1: RPGs are about choice and consequence.

Given #2: A respec feature serves no function but to reduce or flat out remove the consequence from the equation.

 

It's Obvious, then, why you'd want a respec feature. You're a casual modern gamer. You want choice but no consequence. You applaud games like Skyrim, where you can build a savage Nord warrior....but still be able to be the Archmage of the College, without having to start over and rebuild yourself a mage.

 

You applaud games Like Dragon Age, where if you find a super powerful Sword with a strength requirement you don't meet, you can simply drink a potion of "we'll-bend-the-rules-for-you", so you can re-allot your stats, so you can meet the strength requirement, so you can use that sword! <gag>

 

You're probably not going to enjoy PoE, my friend. So my advice to you would be to save yourself the "frustration" and "disgruntlement", and focus your attention and energy on.... IDK....Witcher 3? Or some other game coming out soon designed for casual modern gamers who can't stand to face down the consequences of their choices?

 

hate skyrim and calling us a casual gamer is kinda amusing.  even so, why do you care?  if is an optional feature that you believe allows folks to "cheat," why do you care?  don't use it.  problem solved.  

 

the obsidian developers is very concerned about balance, so the notion o' being able to respec to cheat is kinda a repudiation o' their goals.  even so, we agree that there will be loopholes.  folks with meta knowledge will be able to use a single respec to game the game.  so what?  is a single respec, so you is gonna need describe an actual scenario that would 'cause serious game imbalance, particularly, as we already noted, the game is meant to offer equal juice per squeeze as it were. yeah, some guy, somewhere is gonna figure out that it is better to have high athletic skill early and high lore late.  so what?  a woman in kentucky may find a pivotal point in the game where she sudden needs high resolve and will alter her character to meet that attribute point check.  so what? why do you care?  

 

and again, to call respec cheating is ridiculous if the player using the respec is fixing developer created problems.  the developers, unintentionally o'course, is gonna cheat people outta playing the character they intended.  josh recognized that the game still requires work, and changes will continue to be made, but 'cause o' obsidian errors, oversights, and simple lack o' mechanics transparency,  many folks will be cheated out o' playing the character they expected to play.  take a talent that doesn't work and find out 15 hours into the game that it is having an opposite effect from from what is described? how could any reasonable person suggest that respecing a character to change out that broken talent equals cheating?  how on earth is changing that broken talent to one that works reasonably diminishing the choice and consequences o' gameplay?

 

you have gone beyond the pale... again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Elerond]

This conversation reminds me lots of arguments that I have had with people over ability to save freely in RPGs. 

[Cantousent]

This conversation reminds me lots of arguments that I have had with people over ability to save freely in RPGs. 

I hate not being able to save freely.  I've played plenty of games that don't allow it with no real problem in terms of difficulty, but having to wait for the save point can sometimes be a pain.  That's where you get in the habit of leaving your computer on while you do other stuff because you don't want to lose progress but you have other stuff to get done.

[Gromnir]

This conversation reminds me lots of arguments that I have had with people over ability to save freely in RPGs. 

 

 

This conversation reminds me lots of arguments that I have had with people over ability to save freely in RPGs. 

I hate not being able to save freely.  I've played plenty of games that don't allow it with no real problem in terms of difficulty, but having to wait for the save point can sometimes be a pain.  That's where you get in the habit of leaving your computer on while you do other stuff because you don't want to lose progress but you have other stuff to get done.

 

 

clearly you two can be dismissed as casual modern gamers.  you don't  count.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PrimeJunta]

So, should I feel guilty that I'm not doing more to stop the eye gouging?  Or should I just accept that these things are going to happen and, as long as no one reports an overt offense and I don't see one, be glad that we have broad freedom to express ourselves in this forum?

 

I don't envy your job. Stomp on the eye-gouging too much and you risk turning the place into a sanitized echo chamber. Do nothing about it and eventually the only people left are the biggest eye-gougers. Kind of a BBS Darwinism thing. Neither is a desirable outcome IMO. 

 

I will go on the record here though that IMO the Obsidian forums have a number of long-time members (some of them actually mods) who get away with a good deal of highly questionable behavior. I know of several people who have left these boards because of them, whom I rather miss. "Grow a thicker skin" weeds out a lot of people who would have worthwhile things to say, but just don't want to put up with the annoyance.

 

So, since you asked, I think you might do well to pay a bit of attention to how high-profile posters -- including myself probably, by now, for that matter -- behave. They/we do more to set the tone here, and the place would be altogether more congenial if they/we behaved better, IMO.

 

FWIW I will also attempt to practice what I preach and not stoop to the level I did here anymore. Regrettably I am much easier to provoke than I would like to be.

 

But thanks for asking.

[Stun]

 

 

and again, to call respec cheating is ridiculous if the player using the respec is fixing developer created problems.

Developer created problems? You mean bugs?

 

Again, for the 10th time, You don't need something so clumsy, ham-fisted, and 4th-wall-breaking like an in-game respec feature for that when you can simply use console commands to edit your character

Edited March 21, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

I don't envy your job. Stomp on the eye-gouging too much and you risk turning the place into a sanitized echo chamber. Do nothing about it and eventually the only people left are the biggest eye-gougers. Kind of a BBS Darwinism thing. Neither is a desirable outcome IMO.

 

[...]

 

Darwinism is not an ideal, it is a fact of life and reality. Struggle is the father of all things.

 

*starts to sharpen the eye-gouging-knife*

 

 

If I ever get the chance to inspire or create a weapon in a PoE game, it will be called The Eye-Gouger and be shaped vaguely like a keyboard, in honour of this conversation.

 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Luckmann

[PrimeJunta]

In that case, cooperation is the mother. 

 

If I ever get to inspire a spell, the effect will be to get everyone in the encounter to drop their weapons, form a circle, hold hands, and solemnly sing Kum Bah Yah for the duration, then leaving them dazed in a happy warm fog of love for all creaturekind for a few rounds afterwards. 

 

 

Except the caster, whose weapons will only be illusionarily dropped, and who will not experience the happy warm daze, giving him a marked advantage when the eye-gouging resumes.

 

[dorkboy]

The "don't use it" argument only works up to a certain point. This is why there are often game modes like "ironman" (the name of the PoE equivalent escapes me atm.).

Sometimes people want boundaries and rules that push back* - and trying to be both player and GM sometimes ends up feeling like playing chess against oneself. 

 

*Or at least create that illusion. 

 

Having the option to [dis]allow respeccing be something that is determined on a per-campaign basis (like ironman and, in some games, difficulty level) seems like it would work for both camps, though.. Balance/exploit issues notwithstanding, ofc.

[Gromnir]

 

clearly you two can be dismissed as casual modern gamers. you don't count.

 

HA! Good Fun!

^Straw man. You don't know how to argue Gromnir. That much is obvious. Prime Junta was right.

 

*groan*

 

does folks think "strawman" is like abracadabra or hocus pocus?  at least we see fewer claims o' ad hominem.

 

that being said, you is getting off-topic.  say something relevant. 

 

example: respec is a relative simple fix to dealing with the inevitable diminution o' player choice resulting from developer error and/or rules obscurity.  is not a perfect solution, but the possibility for exploitation appears minimal.  if the arguments against respec is that it feels wrong even to folks who do not use it, we remain unmoved.  if the argument is that use o' respec is "cheating," we is equal unmoved.  

 

regardless, much like elerond, we see parallels.  it is difficult to have a feel or proper role-play discussion without it turning into mindless repetition.  there is no rebuttal for feel, when there is a lack o' empathy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Stun]

example: respec is a relative simple fix to dealing with the inevitable diminution o' player choice resulting from developer error and/or rules obscurity.

Rules obscurity. lol

 

Translation: I made a 'poor' build because I don't understand the mechanics, therefore, they should put a reset button in my game so that I can.....try again?

 

For the 11th time: If the issue is just game bugs, why have something so clumsy, ham-fisted and 4th-wall-breaking as an in-game respec mechanic, when you could just bring up the console commands and edit your character?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Stun

[Gromnir]

already addressed your query a few times.  see our discussions when silent winter brought up the point earlier.  though one wonders if the console fix for such issues is less cheating or more?  is very confusing when reason and rationality is abandoned.

 

*shrug*

 

done. even Gromnir has a threshold for endless repetition.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ohioastro]

I've been playing computer games since Wizardry 1, so don't put me in the (sneering) "casual modern gamer" box.  A lot of people seem to confuse rigid adherence to every detail of older games with some sort of gaming purity.  I value a good storyline, interesting character development, interesting encounters that I find challenging and that make me think.  I don't need to waste my time juggling things on inventory screens, and I do like to try out multiple ways to play characters without relying on internet "how-to" guides from others.  And I also don't have hundreds of hours to game.  Something like a respec option is radically different from doing something like making Dragon Age 2 encounters trivial at normal difficulty: it doesn't impact my game at all if I don't use it, and it gives me some options to experiment with my characters that I might not otherwise have.

 

Some of the mechanics of the old games were poor.  Some ideas were excellent.  There is no reason to adopt both.

[Stun]

already addressed your query a few times.  see our discussions when silent winter brought up the point earlier.

I just did. You didn't respond at all when I, or silent winter or anyone else brought up the point.

 

So, I will repeat it. You want a respec feature so you can work around possible bugs, or, as you call them 'developer errors". However, 1) the game already has a console feature that lets you do that; and 2) By asking for a respec mechanic, you are basically requesting that the devs expend additional time and resources into building one then putting it into the game....time and resources that would be better spent fixing those bugs in the first place. And this is to say nothing of the possibility that the respec mechanic itself might end up breaking other game mechanics, thus introducing a whole new set of bugs associated with the character building process.

 

Yeah, good, shrewd thinking there, Gromnir. Herp Derp.

 

 

 

though one wonders if the console fix for such issues is less cheating or more?

It's definitely cheating (they're called console cheats). But if we're going to operate under your logic, that we're simply 'fixing something that's broken", then it wouldn't be cheating at all. Would it. Edited March 21, 2015 by Stun

[ManifestedISO]

Can't seem to find where he wanted a respect (sic) feature. 

[Stun]

Touché. I can't count the number of times I've reflexively added that "t". Every single edit I've done on every single post of mine on this thread, has been to remove "t's".

[redneckdevil]

I feel like it's "something for nothing" hence why I am against respeccing.

Options for me to be okay with respeccing?

1. Make the option toggleble and cannot be turned back. What I mean is have an option for it but if u turn it off, u cannot turn it back on.

2. Have consequences for respeccing. Either by adding equal or greater debuffs that u CANNOT cure. Point is make it cost as much as the benefit in using it. This way it's no longer "something for nothing", but could actually add and enhance the game.

3. .......can't think of another one.

Of course if included, it HAS to fit into the world and lore and not seem outta place but something that could actually happen (such as my earlier example of an experiment with animancy).

 

I don't care how people play their games, but that doesn't devoid my preference for what I want and enjoy in my game.

[KingNee]

I don't care how people play their games, but that doesn't devoid my preference for what I want and enjoy in my game.

 

I feel that more options is not always a good thing. I've had this discussion before on forums such as Q23 but my argument is the same; I want a "designed" experience. A vision fulfilled by writers and designers that let's me play in their world but this world has a theme and a path and comes with rules that you must follow for the story to work. 

 

Outside of a difficulty setting and UI customisation I don't want a "create your own game", "emergent gameplay" experience with this title. I want to take part in the story primarily on their terms, not my own. Choices matter little if they can be undone when deemed inconvenient. 

 

You still have the option to restart the game after 10 minutes and test out all the different characters and builds, but when you do commit, the story has begun, there are no backsies and that's how it should be.  

[Tildryn]

The grognard level is high in this thread.

[ddillon]

 

Can't sympathize with you there: You were metagaming based on spoilers. Almost seems a case of "just desserts" imo...

On the contrary. I did not know a full respec was involved. I assumed that Khelgar would eventually become a monk as he kept going on about it, so I tried to build up to that, whenever it would happen. It's actually one of the few things that genuinely interested me the first time I played it, and I actively looked for temples, monasteries, and what have you to help it along.

 

Eh, you said:

 

I remember the very first time I played NWN2, and heard about Khelgar's quest to become a monk, so when leveling him up I did all I could to make that viable.

It sounded to me as if you meant that you had heard about the option from other players.

 

But if you were referring to Khelgar's in-game dialogue... Khelgar might want to become a monk, but knowing the D&D ruleset, even just the rules as presented in that video game, a player could reasonably assume that Khelgar would be unable to become a monk or that the devs would allow some kind of respec to make it viable.

 

Without a respec, in order to make informed decisions when leveling him, you would need to know in advance whether or not Khelgar would actually get the chance to change his class to monk, hence you would need metagame knowledge.

 

Again, I'm not a fan of that class change as implemented. Just don't think you and Luckmann have much ground to stand on in terms of being upset about the respec option for Khelgar.

 

This happened to me too, so I call bogus on the metagaming accusation. I had no idea that my choices would suddenly be invalidated.

See above.

Edited March 22, 2015 by ddillon

[wolfing]

The only way I would accept a respec in an RPG is if it's not really a respec but a 'start over'. If you want to be a warrior when you've been all your life a wizard, then you start from scratch, level 1 with 0 exp.  You keep your items so it's not like you'll be a total wuss against mid level monsters, and it's a party based game so the other characters can help you catch up with levels, specially considering that you'll be gaining levels fast because of difference of level vs. encounter levels.