New screenshots! Let's look at some dragons!

[Sedrefilos]

If they talk, I'd love if they're voiced. Dragons talking was done so nice in IE and NWN games

[middydj]

Very nice pics!

[Pidesco]

That last pic leaves me wondering about how character lighting is handled in PoE's engine. While this is a feeling more than anything else, the model's colours strike me as a tiny bit off and I'm thinking that it might be due to the contrast between its and the background's lighting.

[Luckmann]

That last pic leaves me wondering about how character lighting is handled in PoE's engine. While this is a feeling more than anything else, the model's colours strike me as a tiny bit off and I'm thinking that it might be due to the contrast between its and the background's lighting.

 

The shadows are way, way, waaaaay off. I think lighting is an issue that they're working on, though. Also, that particular screenshot is at least a couple of builds old, so one can only hope that it looks better by now.

[Forlorn Hope]

Screenshots look promising. 21 days till release, time flies!

[Luckmann]

I totally forgot in my post. I will remain skeptical. The wurm, drake and dragon evolution is interesting and all but yeah, too many games handle dragons poorly (according to my tastes/preferences, most games makes dragons into drooling monsters that you fight and battle with). Firkraag is pretty cool... and so is Shadowrun dragons, and also Odin Sphere (and, of course), Tolkien's Smaug.

 

I am curious if dragons in Pillars of Eternity are capable of possession or transformation (Taking the form of a human, or other races, like the ones from Shadowrun or Firkraag in Baldur's Gate II), but I don't want that to be answered here (I want to find out in-game).

 

Regardless, I will remain skeptical of their narrative value until I've experienced it first hand in-game.

 

Well the OP does say that "They are more intelligent than most other sentient beings, but their solitary nature prevents them from meaningfully interacting with others. " So even if they could possess or polymorph (which I doubt, for the following reason in relation to the narrative) I doubt they would, since they are most likely extremely antisocial to the level of direct hostility (at least towards other species).

 

I really, really, really hope that with this approach to dragons, they really try to highlight their intelligence in the narrative, without making them scheming semi-social animals that shapeshift, possess or.. well.. talk.

 

This is actually harder than one would think, but as humans, we really associate the ability to communicate (with us) with intelligence. Which makes perfect sense, I'm not saying we're doing it wrong, just that it's a challenge to say "Dragons are supremely intelligent" and then carry that through in a narrative fashion that remains meningful.

 

After all, it doesn't matter if the game says "Dragons are supremely intelligent" if all it amounts to is them acting (as interpreted by us) virtually feral. From a narrative perspective, there'd be no difference between a "supremely intelligent dragon" and a "dumb as a door-knob dire koala", if all we do is fight them like another mob, and without speech or "intelligent" conversation (which, based on what has been said, dragons are unlikely to even want to partake in).

 

Story-wise, I find the idea of an incredibly intelligent, incredibly powerful (large, muscular, winged, etc) opponent that is utterly unreasonable (antisocial, etc) that you cannot actually talk to - it just wants you dead, because you are on it's territory - to be very interesting.

 

But to convey this, to make it intelligent (indeed, more intelligent than your character) yet unreasonable, animalistic yet on some level understandable, I.. I think that'll be really hard.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do with it, I really do, but odds are that it's "just" another "animal" to be put down, but even the tidbit about them actually being intelligent means that at least in the background, they are no mere wyrms, and that the subject can be revisited in expansions or sequels. Because I think it's really interesting.

[ISC]

Well the OP does say that "They are more intelligent than most other sentient beings, but their solitary nature prevents them from meaningfully interacting with others. " So even if they could possess or polymorph (which I doubt, for the following reason in relation to the narrative) I doubt they would, since they are most likely extremely antisocial to the level of direct hostility (at least towards other species).

I really, really, really hope that with this approach to dragons, they really try to highlight their intelligence in the narrative, without making them scheming semi-social animals that shapeshift, possess or.. well.. talk.

 

This is actually harder than one would think, but as humans, we really associate the ability to communicate (with us) with intelligence. Which makes perfect sense, I'm not saying we're doing it wrong, just that it's a challenge to say "Dragons are supremely intelligent" and then carry that through in a narrative fashion that remains meningful.

 

After all, it doesn't matter if the game says "Dragons are supremely intelligent" if all it amounts to is them acting (as interpreted by us) virtually feral. From a narrative perspective, there'd be no difference between a "supremely intelligent dragon" and a "dumb as a door-knob dire koala", if all we do is fight them like another mob, and without speech or "intelligent" conversation (which, based on what has been said, dragons are unlikely to even want to partake in).

 

Story-wise, I find the idea of an incredibly intelligent, incredibly powerful (large, muscular, winged, etc) opponent that is utterly unreasonable (antisocial, etc) that you cannot actually talk to - it just wants you dead, because you are on it's territory - to be very interesting.

 

But to convey this, to make it intelligent (indeed, more intelligent than your character) yet unreasonable, animalistic yet on some level understandable, I.. I think that'll be really hard.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do with it, I really do, but odds are that it's "just" another "animal" to be put down, but even the tidbit about them actually being intelligent means that at least in the background, they are no mere wyrms, and that the subject can be revisited in expansions or sequels. Because I think it's really interesting.

 

 

One way of doing it is in a Lovecraftian style. Many of the Cthulhu mythos entities are intelligent beyond any human ability to comprehend, which is conveyed by creating a feeling that you (or the protagonist) is at most a pawn in some large game of terrible hyper-intelligent minds (outside and beyond your own main story). When done well it can be quite unsettling and creates a sense of mystery. Basically the narrative need only imply a big scheme which will leave players theorizing on what is actually going on etc. The problem of using conversation to convey higher intelligence is that the conversation still needs to be comprehensible and thus within grasp of human intelligence, which, at most, creates the feeling that the dragon is of higher human intelligence.

[Luckmann]

 

Well the OP does say that "They are more intelligent than most other sentient beings, but their solitary nature prevents them from meaningfully interacting with others. " So even if they could possess or polymorph (which I doubt, for the following reason in relation to the narrative) I doubt they would, since they are most likely extremely antisocial to the level of direct hostility (at least towards other species).

I really, really, really hope that with this approach to dragons, they really try to highlight their intelligence in the narrative, without making them scheming semi-social animals that shapeshift, possess or.. well.. talk.

 

This is actually harder than one would think, but as humans, we really associate the ability to communicate (with us) with intelligence. Which makes perfect sense, I'm not saying we're doing it wrong, just that it's a challenge to say "Dragons are supremely intelligent" and then carry that through in a narrative fashion that remains meningful.

 

After all, it doesn't matter if the game says "Dragons are supremely intelligent" if all it amounts to is them acting (as interpreted by us) virtually feral. From a narrative perspective, there'd be no difference between a "supremely intelligent dragon" and a "dumb as a door-knob dire koala", if all we do is fight them like another mob, and without speech or "intelligent" conversation (which, based on what has been said, dragons are unlikely to even want to partake in).

 

Story-wise, I find the idea of an incredibly intelligent, incredibly powerful (large, muscular, winged, etc) opponent that is utterly unreasonable (antisocial, etc) that you cannot actually talk to - it just wants you dead, because you are on it's territory - to be very interesting.

 

But to convey this, to make it intelligent (indeed, more intelligent than your character) yet unreasonable, animalistic yet on some level understandable, I.. I think that'll be really hard.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what they'll do with it, I really do, but odds are that it's "just" another "animal" to be put down, but even the tidbit about them actually being intelligent means that at least in the background, they are no mere wyrms, and that the subject can be revisited in expansions or sequels. Because I think it's really interesting.

 

 

One way of doing it is in a Lovecraftian style. Many of the Cthulhu mythos entities are intelligent beyond any human ability to comprehend, which is conveyed by creating a feeling that you (or the protagonist) is at most a pawn in some large game of terrible hyper-intelligent minds (outside and beyond your own main story). When done well it can be quite unsettling and creates a sense of mystery. Basically the narrative need only imply a big scheme which will leave players theorizing on what is actually going on etc. The problem of using conversation to convey higher intelligence is that the conversation still needs to be comprehensible and thus within grasp of human intelligence, which, at most, creates the feeling that the dragon is of higher human intelligence.

 

 

Well part of that is also being manipulated, by insanely (literally) powerful beings of the incomprehensible void. And dragons in PoE are (as far as we know) not really that powerful, and they'd still have to manipulate through intermediaries, and they don't seem to really want to do that, they don't seem to be the type. That's the exact kind of scenario I could see the DnD or Shadowrun dragons attempt to pull off (although maybe not as eerily as Lovecraftian horrors), manipulating, scheming, working through intermediaries four steps removed, giving orders behind the scenes, etc.

 

I'm just not feeling those vibes here at all. I'm seeing and reading "extremely intelligent animal", and we as humans have a very hard time reconciling the intelligent with the animal, and an equally hard time conveying it, I would expect.

 

I may be completely wrong here, I don't know.

[ISC]

Well part of that is also being manipulated, by insanely (literally) powerful beings of the incomprehensible void. And dragons in PoE are (as far as we know) not really that powerful, and they'd still have to manipulate through intermediaries, and they don't seem to really want to do that, they don't seem to be the type. That's the exact kind of scenario I could see the DnD or Shadowrun dragons attempt to pull off (although maybe not as eerily as Lovecraftian horrors), manipulating, scheming, working through intermediaries four steps removed, giving orders behind the scenes, etc.

I'm just not feeling those vibes here at all. I'm seeing and reading "extremely intelligent animal", and we as humans have a very hard time reconciling the intelligent with the animal, and an equally hard time conveying it, I would expect.

 

I may be completely wrong here, I don't know.

 

 

Yeah, I dont think these dragons are directly comparable to  hundreds of feet tall interplanetary Gods that uses dream-inception to manipulate people. But manipulation should be possible to pull off anyway... However, since you invoke the animal-part, we risk getting bogged down in a discussion concerning exactly what intelligence is and how it works. What I mean is that if intelligence is an inborn capacity separate from stuff like working memory and a language center, you'd probably end up with dragons actually being less intelligent than (grown) people in practice. Actually, intelligence beyond the ability to communicate (and recieve) knowledge, beyond abstract conceptual systems, or the human ability to imagine alternative scenarios is probably difficult to convey because it could not exist in any meaningful form?

[JFSOCC]

what about the Q&A update?

[HoonDing]

Only dragons can mate.

[Luckmann]

 

Well part of that is also being manipulated, by insanely (literally) powerful beings of the incomprehensible void. And dragons in PoE are (as far as we know) not really that powerful, and they'd still have to manipulate through intermediaries, and they don't seem to really want to do that, they don't seem to be the type. That's the exact kind of scenario I could see the DnD or Shadowrun dragons attempt to pull off (although maybe not as eerily as Lovecraftian horrors), manipulating, scheming, working through intermediaries four steps removed, giving orders behind the scenes, etc.

I'm just not feeling those vibes here at all. I'm seeing and reading "extremely intelligent animal", and we as humans have a very hard time reconciling the intelligent with the animal, and an equally hard time conveying it, I would expect.

 

I may be completely wrong here, I don't know.

 

 

Yeah, I dont think these dragons are directly comparable to  hundreds of feet tall interplanetary Gods that uses dream-inception to manipulate people. But manipulation should be possible to pull off anyway... However, since you invoke the animal-part, we risk getting bogged down in a discussion concerning exactly what intelligence is and how it works. What I mean is that if intelligence is an inborn capacity separate from stuff like working memory and a language center, you'd probably end up with dragons actually being less intelligent than (grown) people in practice. Actually, intelligence beyond the ability to communicate (and recieve) knowledge, beyond abstract conceptual systems, or the human ability to imagine alternative scenarios is probably difficult to convey because it could not exist in any meaningful form?

 

 

Well I'd argue that it can exist in a meaningful form, just that.. well.. it depends on what someone means with meaningful. To the dragon, I'm sure that it's intelligence is meaningful, I mean, it's ability to reason, it's ability to figure out incredibly complex models, abstract thinking, raw IQ if you want. But I guess if meaningful entails actually relaying that to humans, to us, in a way that matters, then yeah, that's the problem.

 

If it doesn't actually matter to us if it's intelligent, if it will not communicate and if it will behave little different than a feral creature, then what relevance is it's supposed intelligence to us, and if it is irrelevant to us, can we really consider it intelligent? Is "They are more intelligent than most other sentient beings [...]" even worth mentioning? It could have the best language centre in the world, and wouldn't matter if it's not going to engage in conversation (or maybe, like many animals, they can learn languages, but they are simply incapable of forming the words).

 

It's making that intelligence relevant without falling into the D&D/Shadowrun idea of dragons that is a real challenge. The exact definition of intelligence is irrelevant (I personally think the only relevant definition of intelligence is IQ, because it's meaningful and measurable, while most other "definitions" are largely subjective).

 

...I really want to capture myself a PoE dragon now and see how it fares doing some basic tests. Push button, receive cow.

 

 

I bet it's just going to be like one of those monkeys that presses the pleasure button until it starves to death.

 

[Gixen]

I really wished i backed this game. The lore and art of this game is fantastic.

 

Well, off to preorder then!

[Osvir]

Hm, I presume that dragons most commonly might be feral and angry hermits (in essence) to anyone who comes to close. Prefering solitude and will eat most people (defending the its own territory).

But the "Watcher" is special after all, and might have some way of "understanding" the dragon or might have some way of being able to communicate with the "dragon". It depends on what the "Watcher" is (I'll keep my suspicions and speculation for myself though).

Otherwise I can only presume that a Cipher (or a Druid) would be able to commune with a Dragon. A Cipher might be able to sense its soul, or sensing its "tethers" or something. And a Druid well, a Druid is a communicator with nature and might be able to also sense it somehow as well.

 

I'm also thinking about the dream sequences that Chris Avellone wanted to put in for Durance and the Grieving Mother and I'm reflecting that into here... maybe a dragon communicates telepathically or well... for the lack of a better word... soul-ically xD we, as the Players and the readers, might learn how this intelligence takes form and what mysterious purpose it might have.

[Valmy]

Well we know each Dragon will have a legion of Xaurips to deploy so they are not that lonely.  Not sure how good company Xaurips are though.

[Mikey Dowling]

Would be nice if Mikey told us if he would answer any questions otherwise it is pointless to formulate any >.

 

If the wings of the dragon are really damaged.... maybe that is the second phase of the fight? (probably not but hey!)

 

We won't be answering your questions about the dragons only because we don't want to spoil any more than we've given. That said, we really do enjoy reading your theories and what you think could come from what we've shown. This game is getting closer and closer to being in your hands and we couldn't be more excited!

 

Also, for the theory that the gold could be dragon excrement: excellent. That's what "Dragon Diamonds" ended up being in Lunar and that thought still makes me laugh.

[Lephys]

Of course, it's probably a pile of loot that the MC can use to get somewhat rich. If we have a stronghold, will we be able to "mine" it and bring it back to base by using minions/slaves or other means?

I think you mean mine-ions. 6_u

[cmergler]

That 'dragon excrement' might have some ingame uses... perhaps as the source of firearms ammunition? (I know, we do not have actual ammo present, but lore-wise maybe.)

 

Comparable to bat guano and such.

[kryadan]

Look Boo! A Dragon!

 

*Squeak*

 

[hajlife]

IF the dragon excrements are actually a primitive form of base for gunpowder that would be a ... BLAST!

[teknoman2]

i called it back in update 70 when they showed some screenshots that one of then was shouting DRAGON FIGHT AREA

[etagloc]

can't wait to kill one :D

[Abel]

can't wait to kill one :D

 

Violence... In fact you can't wait to be killed by one.

 

Can't wait to pet one

 

Hope they are actually terrifying, not the kind of dragons we saw in Skyrim, which were some kind of weaklings designed to flatter the player's ego

[Leferd]

Seems like a good time to re-experience the greatness that is Vermithrax Pejorative.

 

[teknoman2]

by the way, did anyone else get's an EVOLVE vibe from the way wurms grow into drakes and later dragons?