Pillars of Eternity 2 and crowdfunding on Kickstarter?

[Osvir]

I want to call the "the price should be less" argument a fallacy. But I don't know if "fallacy" (Wikipedia) is the correct term to use.
 

Fallacies of presumption fail to prove the conclusion by assuming the conclusion in the proof. Fallacies of weak inference fail to prove the conclusion due to insufficient evidence. Fallacies of distraction fail to prove the conclusion due to irrelevant evidence, like emotion. Fallacies of ambiguity fail to prove the conclusion due to vagueness in words, phrases, or grammar.

 
(Hm, this quote might fit here, (Obsidian forums), as well)

I suppose... if I understand it correctly... this post (the one you're reading) would then be an unintentional/potential, "intentional fallacy"? (Wikipedia) (I'm not 100% sure if it is even the right term to use in this context or in this thread).

Regardless.

A) Pillars of Eternity is in the same price range as other Kickstarter products at release. Wasteland 2 is $40~ (at $20~ at the moment due to special promotion). Planetary Annihilation is now at $28, and previously around $35-$45 (not to forget that it spun a bit of a controversy when it went for like $150 on Steam, it's down $10 due to special promotion at the moment). Divinity: Original Sin goes for $40~ too.
B) Pillars of Eternity has more content than many games that get released. Look at Evolve, for instance, which goes for $60~ (full AAA price), and it hardly has any content. Listen to what Angry Joe has to say about it (YouTube).

 

The point I want to make is that... if you don't compare with other titles, research the market or even understand the market (of video games, not clothes, cars or physical media) even a little bit then yeah I guess I can see how you're less compliant about the pricing of Pillars of Eternity. But if you have a bit more knowledge about the market and if you follow the latest gaming trends, gaming news, games that comes out, upcoming or recently released, then you'll have much more understanding (duh) and I believe the price won't be a negative "hindrance" or "obstacle".

I suppose the hierarchy looks something like this:
1. AAA titles release at around $60-$70 (Dragon Age, GTA, Evolve, Skyrim etc.). Very well marketed and/or very well known companies.
2. Kickstarter "Boom" titles at around $40-$50 (Wasteland 2, Divinity: OS, Pillars of Eternity, Shroud of the Avatar). Well-known companies.
3. "Regular" Kickstarter titles at around $20-$30 (Broken Age, Massive Chalice, Darkest Dungeon). 
4. Less known indie developers, at around $5-$20 (Simpler or less known games and game companies that don't get much coverage/has no marketing)

 

Thinking about it some more I can't help but wonder if pricing has a bit to do with "company fame" and "company popularity" as well. The bigger the company, the higher the price? The more popular the company (and games they make), the higher the price? Supply & Demand. If fans, supporters and gamers "demand" that Blizzard make WarCraft IV, then Blizzard will surely "supply" it, and surely at a higher price too...? 

 

Going back to this thread (Obsidian forums), and reflecting a bit about it too... is that, games being made hold a similar value to products and antique wares that age over time. StarCraft became a more valuable IP with time, and StarCraft II is and was more worth now than it would've been had it been made and released right after StarCraft: Broodwar. Similarly, WarCraft IV is a much more valuable product today than if it were to be made right after WarCraft III. It'll be even more worth in 10 years, 20 years and so on.

Similarly, "Baldur's Gate III: The Black Hound" or even a sequel to "Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal" is probably more worth today than it was way back when (if it were to be developed, and be a good game, and made by a popular developing studio on the market today). Oh well, sorry about that tangent~

Finally, I won't deny that, if I got to choose, I wouldn't mind getting all games for free :D (Gabe Newell*? Hook me up? Pretty please?  )

*holding my thumbs for Google analytics pulling through as well xD

 

 

I wasn't expecting any progress, PrimeJunta. I said I'm considering not helping in a next kickstarter because of the price, then people started to jump in and talking on behalf of Obsidian. The conversation spread, so I asked if Obsidian coulod explain that. Brandon Adler wrote a post pretty much saying "because" and that's it. Fans are ok with that, other people are not. Life continues.

 

I want to confess that I'm not attempting to speak on behalf of Obsidian or necessarily defending them (but I don't think their pricing is steep in comparison to other titles like Pillars of Eternity, or even in comparison to bigger budget titles), but I am interested in the discussion about pricing, market, trends, Kickstarter, development, and video games in general. Maybe I should take my thoughts and make a new thread in "Way off Topic" or "Computer & Console" *shrug* maybe

Edited March 6, 2015 by Osvir

[Valmy]

ITT people defending a finance model where all the risk is public and all the profit is private. KickStarter is such a model it just has great PR. It's presented as somehow more democratic for the public to take financial risks and reap none of the profit. It even bandies about the same concepts like "Intellectual Property" which came from the banking and financial services industry in their continued efforts to ensure they have absolute control and monopoly, it's a protectionist idea, preventing them from ever having to face the real forces of a genuinely free market or anything resembling actual capitalism.

 

KickStarter model is exactly the same as the high tech industry where all the difficult and expensive work is funded by the tax payer at places like MIT and other research and development institutes and when the hard work is done, handed over to MicroSoft and Apple for private profit (the internet and cell phone tech are just 2 examples) except at least with KS you have a choice whether you want to fund something in this manner (you shouldn't).

 

We shouldn't work to get products we want to buy funded and on the market because....we all want actual Capitalism?  What if I do not care about ideological naval gazing?

 

And your examples of the cell phone and internet are just hilarious.  Go found your perfect Capitalist commune someplace else.  I am so terrified of Obsidian with their absolute control and monopoly.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Valmy

[Karkarov]

Besides, we all know that it's Sony that ought to be afraid or releasing Bloodbourne too close to March 26

 

And btw, how the hell is a PS4-exclusive, action-oriented game a direct competitor to PoE? I for one have never even considered playing that game... 

You guys are the comical ones.  No one on this forum (from a business perspective) matters.  We are all statistically likely to have already purchased the game.  Those of us who haven't are almost 100% locks to buy it on the day it comes out.  This forum is what we call a "niche" though, to suggest that the majority gamer opinion is reflected here is beyond hilarious.  So when I posted what I did, I knew I would get comments like yours.

 

Bloodbourne is the spiritual successor to a game that has been called "One of the 10 best games ever made" by most of gaming journalism.  It also happens to be a mature, dark, gritty themed gothic action RPG.  I shouldn't really need to explain why people might be interested in both, and why some people of limited budget and means may have to choose one or the other.  I mean they literally come out two days apart.  If Bloodbourne were a PC release Eternity likely would have been a footnote on the steam main page and it would have had no chance in hell of topping the sales chart on release like Divinity did.

 

So I am not saying they shouldn't have released the game.  I am saying "Man, they sure do know how to pick release schedules that happen to fall on the same week as other major RPG releases don't they?"  I am also saying maybe releasing a couple weeks earlier, or a couple weeks later, would have seen no real competition of any kind on the RPG front.

 

Divinitiy didn't run the show on steam for around 3 weeks because it was that great a game, or not a niche title.  It was because nothing of any account came out that month other than Divinitiy, especially RPG wise.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Karkarov

[Luckmann]

You guys are the comical ones.  No one on this forum (from a business perspective) matters.  We are all statistically likely to have already purchased the game.  Those of us who haven't are almost 100% locks to buy it on the day it comes out.  This forum is what we call a "niche" though, to suggest that the majority gamer opinion is reflected here is beyond hilarious.  So when I posted what I did, I knew I would get comments like yours.

 

Bloodbourne is the spiritual successor to a game that has been called "One of the 10 best games ever made" by most of gaming journalism.

I still have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

 

Also, lol @ "10 best games ever made" by "gaming journalism".

 

 

It also happens to be a mature, dark, gritty themed gothic action RPG.  I shouldn't really need to explain why people might be interested in both, and why some people of limited budget and means may have to choose one or the other.

It's two different genres, on two different - mutually exclusive - platforms, aimed at two different markets. Really, I think you're blowing it completely out of proportion over a game that is mostly no-name to the market PoE is aimed at.

 

I mean they literally come out two days apart.

Yeah, but still.. so? I'm still not seeing the issue. I'm sure there's other games that'll come out two days before and after that, too, and after that. And after that.

 

If Bloodbourne were a PC release Eternity likely would have been a footnote on the steam main page and it would have had no chance in hell of topping the sales chart on release like Divinity did.

But.. not only is it different markets and not only have apparently multiple people that are nothing short of RPG fanatics not heard of it, but more to the point, Bloodbourne isn't a PC release.

 

So I am not saying they shouldn't have released the game.  I am saying "Man, they sure do know how to pick release schedules that happen to fall on the same week as other major RPG releases don't they?"  I am also saying maybe releasing a couple weeks earlier, or a couple weeks later, would have seen no real competition of any kind on the RPG front.

 

Divinitiy didn't run the show on steam for around 3 weeks because it was that great a game, or not a niche title.  It was because nothing of any account came out that month other than Divinitiy, especially RPG wise.

On the other hand, Divinity was a great game, but yes, partly you're probably right. Now, let's see what other major RPG releases comes up on Steam (or the entire PC/Mac/Linux platform) in the same month as Pillars of Eternity.. uhmm..

 

Uhm.. apparently another AssCreed game is coming up? I guess that's.. something.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Luckmann

[Lord of Riva]

Bloodbourne is the spiritual successor to a game that has been called "One of the 10 best games ever made" by most of gaming journalism.

 

 

since i never heard that, what game do you mean?

 

 

i agree with the others though, an Action based RPG on PS4 and PoE which has a lot less "action" and is only on PC, i do not really see how these games are in the same competision. I could argue that the target group is a whole lot different.

 

Its like comparing C&C with Fire emblem, sure they are Strategy games but still the target group is different. I mean there is certainly an Overlap but you know what i mean.

 

Let me say it this way: Im not  a PoE backer and i joined these forums because im just interested in the game. i didnt back it beause i for not like the combat system i prefer a Turn based system. (yay, toment ... sorry)

And still Obsidian persuaded me to Buy this game (i even pre-ordered which i normally dont do, but its fine i had a seperate reason for that).

 

So the game has a lot going for itself. And i never heard of Bloodbourne

Edited March 6, 2015 by Lord of Riva

[Osvir]

 

Bloodbourne is the spiritual successor to a game that has been called "One of the 10 best games ever made" by most of gaming journalism.

 

since i never heard that, what game do you mean?

 

Dark Souls

Edited March 6, 2015 by Osvir

[Lord of Riva]

 

 

Bloodbourne is the spiritual successor to a game that has been called "One of the 10 best games ever made" by most of gaming journalism.

 

since i never heard that, what game do you mean?

 

Dark Souls

 

 

oh duh, i played that lol. but thanks anyways. yes the comparison between the two is even harder with that knowledge imho.

[Kal Adan]

Bloodborne (not Bloodbourne) is target for a different audience. Different platforms, different ways of playing. It's not a direct competition. Additionally Pillars of Eternity is game known and expected enough to get a lot of publicity when release will be very close and when it happens (reviews). I will hazard a guess that people are waiting for Pillars of Eternity more than they're waiting for Bloodborne.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Kal Adan

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

Bloodbourne is the spiritual successor to a game that has been called "One of the 10 best games ever made" by most of gaming journalism.

 

since i never heard that, what game do you mean?

 

 

Dark Souls

 

 

oh duh, i played that lol. but thanks anyways. yes the comparison between the two is even harder with that knowledge imho.

 

Yeah, I managed to find some vids up on YouTube (it's "Bloodborne", not "Bloodbourne", in case you're looking) and when I saw them I was.. yeah, I mean.. nice visuals and everything. But.. all it did was really reinforce my belief that we're talking about two completely different types of games, with completely different demographics, aimed at completely different markets, on different, mutually exclusive platforms.

 

I sincerely doubt that there's any real competition between the two. Fans of the one are usually not fans of the other.

 

Bloodborne (not Bloodbourne) is target for a different audience. Different platforms, different ways of playing. It's not a direct competition. Additionally Pillars of Eternity is game known and expected enough to get a lot of publicity when release will be very close and when it happens (reviews). I will hazard a guess that people are waiting for Pillars of Eternity more than they're waiting for Bloodborne.

 

I don't disagree, but it might be one of those things that just comes up to whether you're a gamer or a consoler. Since the titles are mutually exclusive, I can see how the console crowd is going all "PoE who?" just as much as we're going "Bloodbourne what?"

 

Different cliques and social circles and all that jazz. So I get how someone could get into the mistaken assumption that Bloodborne is a huge thing that will divide humanity and so forth (and vice versa). Bloodborne is probably huge to those that care. Thing is, I don't see why people looking at PoE would. Yeah, there are people that have all the gadgets and all the toys, with the PC and the tablets and the three consoles, that will "have to" "choose" between the two, but it's not a huge market, and I cannot fathom why it'd be a bigger issue between PoE and Bloodborne than between PoE and any other game being released two weeks before or after.

 

So yeah.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Luckmann

[Oberon70]

HI, Just wondering when will the keys for Steam be sent out? Will it be in time for pre-loading?  Also I notice they are offering items for people the pre-order the game - do Kickstarter backers also get these items?

[Karkarov]

Different cliques and social circles and all that jazz. So I get how someone could get into the mistaken assumption that Bloodborne is a huge thing that will divide humanity and so forth (and vice versa). Bloodborne is probably huge to those that care. Thing is, I don't see why people looking at PoE would. Yeah, there are people that have all the gadgets and all the toys, with the PC and the tablets and the three consoles, that will "have to" "choose" between the two, but it's not a huge market, and I cannot fathom why it'd be a bigger issue between PoE and Bloodborne than between PoE and any other game being released two weeks before or after.

Uh you do realize the whole "console favoritism" / "I am a PC Gamer" thing is not really that common outside of internet forums right?  Most people who consider gaming to be their primary hobby own more than just one console, or just a pc.  Not to mention that kind of attitude is childish and stupid to begin with, just like when you make inane over reaching statements like in your first sentence.  It is also incredibly insane that you think there is no overlap between the games.  They are both mature themed, they are both fantasy, they are both RPG's, they are both supposed to be non hand holdy and challenging in different ways, they both put a lot of importance on exploration and player interpretation. 

 

The big difference is mechanics.  But I am sure it is impossible for a person to like a gritty, mature, exploration encouraging, action RPG and like a real time with pause game with many of the same traits.  Like Sensuki, I mean he is all about Eternity and totally dedicated to it and sticks to this genre with a passion.  Like just last night when he was playing Counter Str...... oh wait...

 

Most gamers like more than one type of game, most gamers who would even have to make a game buying decision own more than one console.  Just because you personally don't like consoles or any game that isn't descended from RTS doesn't mean everyone who is interested in Eternity feels the same way.

 

So to reiterate my point one more time.  Gosh it sure would have been nice if Obsidian could have found a way to not release on the same week as another high profile RPG, surely it wouldn't have been that hard?

Edited March 6, 2015 by Karkarov

[Sonntam]

If the game gets delayed by another couple weeks, then it will fall again in GTA V release window.

 

The game should have come out a month earlier from now or two months later from March. Pushing the game a couple weeks later wouldn't help.

 

At this point the release date is set in stone, though. Nothing to be done now.

[Quantics]

Personally I'm far more likely to play GTA V on PC than this Bloodborne nonsense

[Night Stalker]

HI, Just wondering when will the keys for Steam be sent out? Will it be in time for pre-loading?

They have said that they plan on making preload for Steam users (no word on GOG.com preload), so they must also plan on giving us the keys some time in advance.

[Karkarov]

If the game gets delayed by another couple weeks, then it will fall again in GTA V release window.

Except GTAV isn't an RPG and has already been released on 4 consoles so most people who care have already played it.  Not exactly the same thing.

 

Personally I'm far more likely to play GTA V on PC than this Bloodborne nonsense

Considering it isn't being released on PC I bet you are right.

[zmally]

I'm happy to support Obsidian through Kickstarter - however I won't be happy if they follow Double Fine's train of thought. 

 

For those unfamiliar with what Double Fine did, they successfully kickstarted what would eventually become 'Broken Age' despite apparently having a publisher lined up because they wanted the money. They then started another kickstarter campaign during the development of Broken Age. They THEN announced they had been working on Grim Fandango the whole time whilst working on Broken Age, through Sony as a sponsor/publisher of all things.

 

When compared to Revolution Software, who developed as much of Broken Sword 5 as they could afford to, before resorting to KS for financial backing, Double Fine looked pretty bad.

 

I'll be happy to help crowd fund PoE 2, but only after they have a finished product/expansion.

[Bryy]

Anyone that thinks the majority of audience/players are on an internet forum are seriously fooling themselves.

[Osvir]

^The "silent community" yes? (which is, I believe, a term used in marketing). The silent community is a river that sometimes is calm and welcoming, and sometimes rapid and dangerous. They are about 95%-99.9% of the audience/players. In terms of marketing, this crowd is mostly RNG (dice rolls)*. Though, there are some ways to "manipulate" or expose it to them. We could compare Kickstarter with a d100, and typical AAA marketing a d20 or maybe even a d6. When the product is released we'll see if the river will keep it afloat, or if it'll engulf it.

Point is, we have no idea how much exposure it'll get until the game has been released (I'd say from Day 1 up to Day 150) whether it will be loved, hated, noticed, or maybe even completely missed. Will it even be accepted by the silent community as a Baldur's Gate tribute/spiritual successor? There's tons of factors.

I'm hyped and excited for the game regardless :D I want and have wanted to have the full game "now" for 2+ years (but reasonably understanding that it has to be created first of course) = excitement :D

*Ironically, the silent community is the loudest in relevance to revenue for a company.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Osvir

[Kal Adan]

 

Bloodborne (not Bloodbourne) is target for a different audience. Different platforms, different ways of playing. It's not a direct competition. Additionally Pillars of Eternity is game known and expected enough to get a lot of publicity when release will be very close and when it happens (reviews). I will hazard a guess that people are waiting for Pillars of Eternity more than they're waiting for Bloodborne.

I don't disagree, but it might be one of those things that just comes up to whether you're a gamer or a consoler. Since the titles are mutually exclusive, I can see how the console crowd is going all "PoE who?" just as much as we're going "Bloodbourne what?"

You're not wrong, but by interest I meant emotional load accompanying Pillars of Eternity. It's the most founded project on Kickstarter and a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate series that was supposed to be extinct in gaming due to lack of interest of players. It's bound to generate more interest in mixed media than Bloodborne, because Pillars of Eternity is more than a game at this point. It's a proof of concept.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Kal Adan

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

So to reiterate my point one more time.  Gosh it sure would have been nice if Obsidian could have found a way to not release on the same week as another high profile RPG, surely it wouldn't have been that hard?

And again, there's always some game or another being released a couple of weeks before or after practically any point in time. Such as...

 

If the game gets delayed by another couple weeks, then it will fall again in GTA V release window.

 

The game should have come out a month earlier from now or two months later from March. Pushing the game a couple weeks later wouldn't help.

 

At this point the release date is set in stone, though. Nothing to be done now.

Personally I'm far more likely to play GTA V on PC than this Bloodborne nonsense

This. There is a far greater overlap between PoE and GTAV, really, than a game most PC Gamers doesn't even appear to have heard anything about.

[aeonsim]

So with regards to the original topic of Crowd funding PoE2 I'd happily kick in some money and with the way PoE is turning out I'd probably even put in more than I did this time.

However if PoE does well I think it would be good if they used a slightly different model for PoE2, in that they fund the base game and then allow the community to fund the extra's so effectively the whole kick-stater campaign becomes stretch goals for extra companions, area's, cities, dungeons, more complex spell systems and enhanced mechanics. Where we are effectively funding the extra bits that make the game better/bigger/crazier. This would also allow them to pitch some wilder and more interesting ideas.

 

Imagine a Kickstarter with goals like this:

200K - Enhance the combat systems and rebuild the AI.

500K - Chris Avellone gets to create his dream Companion and quest line

700K - 2 Additional companions

1M - Additional big city and new region

1.4M - We bring in two External writers to write 3 new companions with optional romances (writers who are known to do this well)

1.5M - Complete AI scripting system allowing users to customise companions AI

2M - Super res version all art assets are improved textures, models and animations for companions and creatures are completely redone

2.8M - Super Stronghold  - Your stronghold now has a growing settlement choose how the village grows and defend it from those who oppose you

3M - Dynamic environments weather enters the game and effects the environment and characters

and so on

 

That could be rather fun to support...

 

 

With regards to the cost of the current game at least in the countries I've lived in there tend to be fairly set price ranges for games with games ending up in which ever range best reflects there likely sales and popularity, game prices are never a continuous distribution of all prices between $1 to $XXX they instead have a number of discrete slots which they fit into, for example (New Zealand):

$10-20 old budget releases (>5 year old games)

$40-50 expansion packs, indie games budget blockbuster versions (2-3years old)

$90-110 new PC games

$110-140 Console games

$140-200 Collectors editions PC/Console

 

As such I'd expect PoE to fit into the price range for a new game so the $90-110 NZD, while in fact looking at the stores it seems a little cheaper than that between $60-80 depending on the edition, this compares to $85-120 for DA:I depending on the edition. Those are the prices a game sells for how it was funded is irrelevant, the industry effectively has set prices and people have become used to the idea that a top quality game will be in a certain price range when impulse buying, if your game is new, not on sale and outside those ranges it will be regarded with suspicion.

 

If the game is too expensive for you at release then wait till Christmas and I'm sure there will be a steam sale which drops the price of the game down by 20-50%. It's the same with nearly all creative industry products you pay a premium to buy at launch day and the price decreases over the next 6 months to 1 year (same for books, music, movies etc).

 

As it stands at least in NZ the price for PoE seems a little lower than I expected and it looks like a rather good deal!

 

Also as it currently stands with the Beta I feel like I've had more fun and spent more time playing it than with some AA games I've bought...

Edited March 7, 2015 by aeonsim

[PrimeJunta]

I'd buy into that.

 

I'd still take the FYSMD: Josh Sawyer's Dream RPG kickstarter over that one. Just to see what he'd do if let completely loose.

 

Even better: Arcanum 2: The Wolves of Avellone.

[Quantics]

Personally I'm far more likely to play GTA V on PC than this Bloodborne nonsense

Considering it isn't being released on PC I bet you are right.

 

Cheap shot.

 

I'd rather play (GTA V on PC) than (Bloodborne on PS4). Voilà.

[Stun]

Plus, I'm not so sure Obsidian will make 4 millions dollars in sales. they knew the game would be made with or without the Kickstarter.

I'm willing to bet my testicles they'll easily clear that much in the first week

 

At $40 per copy, PoE would only need to sell about 100,000 copies to generate $4 million.

 

Personally, I'm betting PoE will sell about one million copies (which is less than what D:OS did, and Larian is a name hardly anyone has ever heard of.) And at 1 million in sales, that's.... $40 Million...which would mean that they don't need to kickstart PoE2.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

 

Plus, I'm not so sure Obsidian will make 4 millions dollars in sales. they knew the game would be made with or without the Kickstarter.

I'm willing to bet my testicles they'll easily clear that much in the first week

 

At $40 per copy, PoE would only need to sell about 100,000 copies to generate $4 million.

 

Personally, I'm betting PoE will sell about one million copies (which is less than what D:OS did, and Larian is a name hardly anyone has ever heard of.) And at 1 million in sales, that's.... $40 Million...which would mean that they don't need to kickstart PoE2.

 

With taxes and various other things cutting into the profits, let's not pretend that at $40 a copy for 1 000 000, that that equals 40 millions.

 

Also, Larian is pretty well-known, although yeah, not as much as Obsidian. Larian also has a reputation of less-than-stellar titles (albeit with sizeable cult followings), so I'm not questioning whether PoE will do equal or better than D:OS, just the math.