Original IE Mechanics: Health and Death, no endurance

[Emc2]

I have not played the BB so I can't say for sure, but the systems used in NWN 2 OC and Dragon AGe (and in old FF games) were pretty similar and It didn't really bother me. I feel like Resurrection magic stuff is way more immersion-breaking than the PoE's system (no-one really dies in the old IE games since you can just go and resurrect them when you want, except when the bodies get smashed). Games like PS:T, Dark Souls and NWN HotU made the dying more 'realistic' but that was done through lore. Giving the ability to resurrect to players would contradict with the lore too much.

 

I think it's the thought of not being able to die that takes the intensity out of the combat for some people and I can understand that but you can always apply your own imaginary rules to fix the unrealistic combat (the above-mentioned monsters' threat ratings etc.). I don't know if it actually brings back the risky feeling but for me at least it is enough.

[teknoman2]

I have not played the BB so I can't say for sure, but the systems used in NWN 2 OC and Dragon AGe (and in old FF games) were pretty similar and It didn't really bother me. I feel like Resurrection magic stuff is way more immersion-breaking than the PoE's system (no-one really dies in the old IE games since you can just go and resurrect them when you want, except when the bodies get smashed). Games like PS:T, Dark Souls and NWN HotU made the dying more 'realistic' but that was done through lore. Giving the ability to resurrect to players would contradict with the lore too much.

 

I think it's the thought of not being able to die that takes the intensity out of the combat for some people and I can understand that but you can always apply your own imaginary rules to fix the unrealistic combat (the above-mentioned monsters' threat ratings etc.). I don't know if it actually brings back the risky feeling but for me at least it is enough.

here's how it goes from what i ve seen in the videos (BB players can correct me if im wrong). if you lose all stamina you fall unconscious until the end of the fight then have a small temporary penalty. if you lose all hp you get maimed and get up with 1 hp at the end of the fight with a big debuff that lasts until you rest. if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.

if you activate an optional game mode, you die the first time your hp goes to 0

[Gfted1]

...if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.

Huh, I didn't know that.

 

So then that character is irretrievably gone since there's no resurrection?

[rjshae]

It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.

[Doppelschwert]

 

...if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.

Huh, I didn't know that.

 

So then that character is irretrievably gone since there's no resurrection?

 

 

Apparently it works like this although I didn't bother to check ingame:

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Maimed

[teknoman2]

It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.

you know, all the "muh immersion" stuff everyone suggests in the long run detract from the game making it tedious.

it looks realistic if the maimed character is limping behind the rest, but after a while you will be tired of it since he will be slowing down the entire pace of the game. you have a maimed character and want to go to the inn? if he is limping it will take twice as long to get there for no real reason and after a few times it will get to be a boring chore and you will wish they had not included it

[Hassat Hunter]

KazaguL; Google "Opossum"... a species extinct if what you said is true

[Stun]

I'm fairly confident that the reasoning was along the following lines:

• If healing is allowed via spells, then encounters will have to be balanced with the assumption that the player will have in-combat healing.  Assuming that these spells are limited to one class, it would "imbalance" the classes (contradicting a design goal).
• Many IE players always reload from a save when someone dies rather than using resurrection magic, rendering these spells moot.  This is especially true at low levels (where this game takes place), when a dead character means playing inventory tetris to get the body and equipment into inventory, walking back to the template, and paying the fee -- a big hassle compared to simply reloading the game.
• If players don't heal to 100% when combat ends then balancing the game becomes far more difficult -- some players will rest after every encounter (no matter how hard you make this) while others will only rest when seriously damaged.  This variation in playstyles makes it harder to balance / day abilities and "rest spamming" is considered to be the "wrong way to play the game" by a number of people.  By automatically healing everyone reduces this variation, simplifying balancing.

Those were in fact, the stated reasons.

 

 

All of them ridiculous.

 

- The first one is easily rendered moot with potions, scrolls and items that anyone can use. Radical concept, I know! And RPG fans love loot, so it's a win/win alternative.

 

 

-The second one is typical Josh Sawyer philosophy - worrying about the lowest common denominator instead of the *role player*. Hey Josh, Here's a news flash for you: In PoE, a total party wipe makes players reload their game, too. So what are you gonna do about that? Hmm? Are you going to scrap total party wipes in the sequel to eliminate such degenerate save-scumming? Or are you just gonna expand on your design and introduce a 3rd, 4th, or 5th type of health bar to make reloading even more rare?

 

-The third one shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone who knows better. Sawyer himself developed Icewind Dale 2 - a game that only took 10 months to make -and- didn't suffer from any balance issues, -and- didn't see players resting after every battle -and- didn't have to have 2 kinds of health bars to prevent 'degenerate reloading'.

 

 

Incidentally, if these are the *actual* reasons why they introduced an endurance bar (instead of just being the explanation given for public consumption) then the design is already a failure. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm finding myself both resting more frequently and reloading more frequently in this beta than I do in ANY of the IE games. The addition of a stamina bar is not making any difference whatsoever.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Stun

[Emc2]

-The second one is typical Josh Sawyer wash - worrying about the lowest common denominator instead of the *role player*. Hey Josh, Here's a news flash for you: In PoE, a total party wipe makes players reload their game, too. So what are you gonna do about that? Hmm? Are you going to remove Death in the sequel to eliminate such degenerate save-scumming? Or are you just gonna expand on your design and introduce a 3rd and 4th type of health bar to make reloading even more rare?

 

 

Of course people reload after total wipe but if only one guy falls it's not a reason to reload for most people (unlike baldur's gate etc.). I'd say the endurance system objectively reduces the need for reloading. If, as you said, you still are doing the reloading just as much then the problem is somewhere else. Either that means dying isn't the biggest reason for reloading or they messed something else up even more.

 

Just to make things clear, I agree with your points.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Emc2

[Stun]

I'd say the endurance system objectively reduces the need for reloading.

It doesn't. Again, I'm finding myself reloading and resting far more often in the beta than I ever did in the IE games.

 

Of course, to be fair, this might not actually have anything to do with the endurance system. It *might* have more to do with the fact that there's no real healing magicks in the game...plus the fact that enemies in this game can hit pretty hard and the game doesn't give you a whole lot of options to mitigate that..... and the fact that the fatigue system is kinda wonky at the moment, forcing that 15 minute work day upon you even if you're not hurt at all.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Stun

[Osvir]

I had hoped that the Endurance system had been something more to be honest. Health staying like the IE games, but that Endurance would've been like... an "Exhaustion" meter, every action you take would've cost "Endurance" (moving, attacking, defending, dodging, abilities, spells, etc.), and instead of "Passing out" when going to 0 Endurance, the Character would instead rest or take a breather, recover some Endurace, and then the Player can reintroduce them into the fight.

This would've made most sense, have the character become "immobile" when 0 Endurance (symbolising they are too tired to take action), enemies could still target him/her and the character will regenerate, say, 10% Endurance in a short time (also, taking no actions whatsoever would regenerate Endurance. So if you are a Rogue in this concept system, you go down to 50% Endurance, do Escape and then rest up/take a breather/take no action, the Endurance bar would regenerate slowly).

Lots of parameters, variables and scripts, and even further advancements to it though. There's also a question about dynamic, and how it would synchronize well. What happens to the "Exhausted One" when he/she has 3 enemies around him/her? How would I be able to save the character, what abilities would I have to use and would I have time to do it?

[rjshae]

 

It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.

you know, all the "muh immersion" stuff everyone suggests in the long run detract from the game making it tedious.

it looks realistic if the maimed character is limping behind the rest, but after a while you will be tired of it since he will be slowing down the entire pace of the game. you have a maimed character and want to go to the inn? if he is limping it will take twice as long to get there for no real reason and after a few times it will get to be a boring chore and you will wish they had not included it

 

Mmm, I only suggested an interval of discomfort and groaning while recovering in the aftermath of a battle. How did you translate that into an endless trial of slow, limping characters? Apparently you're reading additional meaning into my suggestion.

[Lephys]

Of course, to be fair, this might not actually have anything to do with the endurance system. It *might* have more to do with the fact that there's no real healing magicks in the game...plus the fact that enemies in this game can hit pretty hard and the game doesn't give you a whole lot of options to mitigate that..... and the fact that the fatigue system is kinda wonky at the moment, forcing that 15 minute work day upon you even if you're not hurt at all.

To be even fairer, it just sounds like the source of the problem is number values. Fix the wonky fatigue, and the hardness of hits, etc., and see if that doesn't drastically change the significance of the lack of healing magic, for example.

[teknoman2]

 

 

It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.

you know, all the "muh immersion" stuff everyone suggests in the long run detract from the game making it tedious.

it looks realistic if the maimed character is limping behind the rest, but after a while you will be tired of it since he will be slowing down the entire pace of the game. you have a maimed character and want to go to the inn? if he is limping it will take twice as long to get there for no real reason and after a few times it will get to be a boring chore and you will wish they had not included it

 

Mmm, I only suggested an interval of discomfort and groaning while recovering in the aftermath of a battle. How did you translate that into an endless trial of slow, limping characters? Apparently you're reading additional meaning into my suggestion.

 

i think the mechanical debuff is enough... and i think to recall from the videos that characters with low hp are holding their sides

[aeonsim]

 

...if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.

Huh, I didn't know that.

 

So then that character is irretrievably gone since there's no resurrection?

 

 

That is correct I had it happen to me a couple of times when playing on PoD when I tried to push through one more room/fight with several maimed companions, they take a blow chunk and their portrait disappears from the interface.

 

In general I like the health/endurance system it's a nice part way point between realism and resurrection magic which just does not make sense as it's been implemented in any game I've played (why does any one die if they can be resurrected). With the current system letting one of your party get knocked out by mistake punishes you for the rest of the combat by reducing the amount of damage you can deal and allowing the enemies to gang up on your remaining characters but if you can still pull off the fight you can continue with out having to pay a resurrection tax (gold usually though indirectly via scrolls or wands of resurrection or a high level spell slot). However if you make mistake after mistake in the combat your characters will reach a point where you have to pull back and think about what your doing or they'll permanently die. If you want to risk it or you haven't got any resting materials you can still push on at this point but you have to play really carefully to keep your characters alive.

 

Thus it seems to me that the setup encourages you to think about the fights at the harder difficulty levels while at the lower ones allows you to just charge in and pull of fights but the at the very last second with only a couple of party members still standing (at the eventual cost of more rests), while encouraging you to play a little better in the next fight.

Edited January 30, 2015 by aeonsim

[Lephys]

In general I like the health/endurance system it's a nice part way point between realism and resurrection magic which just does not make sense as it's been implemented in any game I've played (why does any one die if they can be resurrected).

Now I kind of wanna make a game in which the main plot conflict is "why is everyone suddenly not dying anymore?", and it turns out it's because someone decided everyone should live forever and got resurrection magic working. But, people keep aging, and having more children, and resources get scarce, so it turns into this dystopian world anyway.

[Stun]

Also lets keep in mind that we still know next to nothing about the game world's plot and lore. I've been criticizing the lack of healing magic/resurrection but that's strictly from a gameplay/philosophy viewpoint. If PoE's story/lore manages to believably explain to us why priests can call forth massive beams of energy from the sky to smite every enemy on the battlefield, but at the same time they can't muster the magical energy needed to mend a wound, or fix a broken arm, then I'll be OK with no healing magic.

 

But right now it just seems like they removed heal spells for no reason but to give us "tactical combat", or whatever. And no, I'm *not* fine with that.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Stun

[Heijoushin]

 

In general I like the health/endurance system it's a nice part way point between realism and resurrection magic which just does not make sense as it's been implemented in any game I've played (why does any one die if they can be resurrected).

Now I kind of wanna make a game in which the main plot conflict is "why is everyone suddenly not dying anymore?", and it turns out it's because someone decided everyone should live forever and got resurrection magic working. But, people keep aging, and having more children, and resources get scarce, so it turns into this dystopian world anyway.

There's an amazing fantasy book with just that storyline. Its called The End Specialist. I highly recommend it!

 

Interesting discussion. I will withhold my comments until I've played the game though.

[Lephys]

Also lets keep in mind that we still know next to nothing about the game world's plot and lore. I've been criticizing the lack of healing magic/resurrection but that's strictly from a gameplay/philosophy viewpoint. If PoE's story/lore manages to believably explain to us why priests can call forth massive beams of energy from the sky to smite every enemy on the battlefield, but at the same time they can't muster the magical energy needed to mend a wound, or fix a broken arm, then I'll be OK with no healing magic.

I would imagine for the same reason that we can create nuclear reactions to generate enormous explosions, but have yet to discover a way to use nuclear bombs to mend wounds or fix a broken arm.

 

Magic is not just some all-purpose energy by definition. A given author of a given world could define it that way, but then, he has to have reasons for it to be that way, too. I hardly see people explaining in detail how and why magical energy can be used to undo wounds and fix bones, other than "So you can have fun undoing damage in combat and tossing HPs at people! 8D!", which I don't see as any more reasonable of an explanation than having it gone "because tactical combat." Just for what it's worth.

 

In the most objectively-treated approaches I've seen, healing magic is quite limited. In Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series, for example, people can heal wounds, but it still uses the wounded person's own biology to do so. So, if someone was cut in half, for example, a channeler (magic user) could probably heal them, but they'd probably then die from the exertion on their body from stitching their two halves back together in a matter of seconds. Not only that, but it takes a ton out of the caster, too.

[GreyFox]

 

Also lets keep in mind that we still know next to nothing about the game world's plot and lore. I've been criticizing the lack of healing magic/resurrection but that's strictly from a gameplay/philosophy viewpoint. If PoE's story/lore manages to believably explain to us why priests can call forth massive beams of energy from the sky to smite every enemy on the battlefield, but at the same time they can't muster the magical energy needed to mend a wound, or fix a broken arm, then I'll be OK with no healing magic.

I would imagine for the same reason that we can create nuclear reactions to generate enormous explosions, but have yet to discover a way to use nuclear bombs to mend wounds or fix a broken arm.

 

Magic is not just some all-purpose energy by definition. A given author of a given world could define it that way, but then, he has to have reasons for it to be that way, too. I hardly see people explaining in detail how and why magical energy can be used to undo wounds and fix bones, other than "So you can have fun undoing damage in combat and tossing HPs at people! 8D!", which I don't see as any more reasonable of an explanation than having it gone "because tactical combat." Just for what it's worth.

 

In the most objectively-treated approaches I've seen, healing magic is quite limited. In Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series, for example, people can heal wounds, but it still uses the wounded person's own biology to do so. So, if someone was cut in half, for example, a channeler (magic user) could probably heal them, but they'd probably then die from the exertion on their body from stitching their two halves back together in a matter of seconds. Not only that, but it takes a ton out of the caster, too.

 

 

 

Eh it's not about using the same exact thing but rather the technology associated with it....for your example....http://science.howstuffworks.com/nuclear-medicine.htm

 

Radiation therapy, while not a nuclear bomb, is clearly derived from the same/related science discoveries and is being put to use for reasons other than destruction.

 

So clearly it's not hard to imagine taking a form of divine energy and using it for harm or help.

Edited February 6, 2015 by GreyFox

[Stun]

Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'. So yes, a better game world explanation is needed to explain why nothing cures health.... well, nothing but a simply 8 hours of rest, which amazingly enough, cures all ailments.

[Bryy]

Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'. So yes, a better game world explanation is needed to explain why nothing cures health.... well, nothing but a simply 8 hours of rest, which amazingly enough, cures all ailments.

Context is key. The mechanics of the game support the world, it's actually really cool.

[Lephys]

Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'.

Well, to be even fairer, as abstracted as "endurance" is, a Monster Energy drink and a Slim Jim would heal "Endurance," but would not stitch up your actual wounds.

 

And fair enough about 8-hours rest, but that's not really nonsensical in function, it's merely obviously exaggerated. As, eventually,, rest would heal your wounds. Or rather, rest + nutrients-and-such = healing.

 

Eh it's not about using the same exact thing but rather the technology associated with it....for your example....http://science.howstuffworks.com/nuclear-medicine.htm

 

Radiation therapy, while not a nuclear bomb, is clearly derived from the same/related science discoveries and is being put to use for reasons other than destruction.

 

So clearly it's not hard to imagine taking a form of divine energy and using it for harm or help.

I get that. Just... you can't use radiation to perform any task you want. Yet, magical energy can become fire, or lightning, or can alter your mind, or can speed you up, etc. So the rules of raw magical energy don't seem to follow the rules of any real-world energies very well.

 

Plus, radiation can aid in lots of "healing," but it can't knit your flesh back together and stop your bleeding. Thus, my example, more simply/immediately, was just to point out that just because some energy is powerful enough to do something doesn't automatically make its versatility equal to its power.

 

Anywho, magical energy that can heal wounds is no more inherently wrong than magical energy that can't. It's just two different options for lore, really. Nothing really makes magical healing an obviously existent thing, is all.

[Stun]

Well, to be even fairer, as abstracted as "endurance" is, a Monster Energy drink and a Slim Jim would heal "Endurance," but would not stitch up your actual wounds.

No. Endurance in PoE is not a synonym for "energy". That is to say, your endurance can be Zero and it won't stop your barbarian from being able to activate a barbarian sprint, or your fighter from effectively engaging 2 more enemies and then activating his knockdown abilities.

 

Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Stun

[Bazy]

 

Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

 

Kind of like real life? 

 

A wrestler can get winded in 5 minutes (Endurance). Take a few minute break and get back to it (End of combat). But each time he does it takes a toll on his health. And can only do that so many times before he needs a more proper rest (Health).

Edited February 7, 2015 by Bazy