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Original IE Mechanics: Health and Death, no endurance

#mechanics death health

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#21
teknoman2

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To reply to teknoman2, if you are fighting monsters, who don't think like humans, they will simply kill you. They won't be like "ok, I've knocked him unconscious, i'll finish him off after me and my other werewolf buddies have dealt with his companions", they'll just rip you apart, hence the immersion breaking aspect of 'falling unconscious after losing stamina when fighting vicious monsters'-system.

have you ever watched an animal documentary? pack animals act as packs. by instinct they assign threat levels to what is around and deal with the highest level first. if a pack member is in danger they will ignore lower level threats in favor of helping that member (and injured enemies are the lowest level threats)



#22
CaptainMace

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I don't get why people are upset about this. It's pretty much the same system, the only difference is that you can't abuse Reload/Healing/Rest for every fight, isn't it ?
I mean yeah it's annoying to see the characters just stand back again after the fight ends like nothing happened, but I'll trade realism for gameplay any time of the day baby.


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#23
teknoman2

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I don't get why people are upset about this. It's pretty much the same system, the only difference is that you can't abuse Reload/Healing/Rest for every fight, isn't it ?
I mean yeah it's annoying to see the characters just stand back again after the fight ends like nothing happened, but I'll trade realism for gameplay any time of the day baby.

well said

that is the difference between a game and a simulator. the game needs coherence and believeability in it's story, characters, world and so on, but the gameplay has no need to be "realistic"... it needs to be practical for it's purpose within the game.


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#24
BigBripa

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To reply to teknoman2, if you are fighting monsters, who don't think like humans, they will simply kill you. They won't be like "ok, I've knocked him unconscious, i'll finish him off after me and my other werewolf buddies have dealt with his companions", they'll just rip you apart, hence the immersion breaking aspect of 'falling unconscious after losing stamina when fighting vicious monsters'-system.


I've heard this a lot but it's simply not true. Playing dead is a useful (viable enough to be an evolutionary imperative in some species) tactic for survival against certain larger, stronger animals that attack out of territorial and not predatory instinct. Most animals would be very much more likely to focus on the active theat and not the unconscious lump.

And I'm general:
Out of all the beefs with PoE this is the one I understand least. How is this any less immersion breaking than the idea of someone dying and being brought back to life? As has been said, this system of logic means that essentially any death in the narrative is reversible and meaningless.

It doesn't change gameplay. It isn't any more immersion breading than the alternative. It just refuses to let people come back from the dead... which seems like a pretty solid idea.

#25
Zeckul

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Characters knocked down unconscious and rising up as soon as the last enemy in sight is defeated is not realistic and somewhat breaks immersion. But it's still a lot more plausible than the party having access to an infinite time warp mechanism allowing them to set waypoints in time (saving the game) and travelling back to any of these waypoints at any time (reloading). I think the main advantage of the former is to dramatically cut down on the number of times you'll resort to the latter in ordinary gameplay, and that's a great thing.


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#26
Emc2

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I have not played the BB so I can't say for sure, but the systems used in NWN 2 OC and Dragon AGe (and in old FF games) were pretty similar and It didn't really bother me. I feel like Resurrection magic stuff is way more immersion-breaking than the PoE's system (no-one really dies in the old IE games since you can just go and resurrect them when you want, except when the bodies get smashed). Games like PS:T, Dark Souls and NWN HotU made the dying more 'realistic' but that was done through lore. Giving the ability to resurrect to players would contradict with the lore too much.

 

I think it's the thought of not being able to die that takes the intensity out of the combat for some people and I can understand that but you can always apply your own imaginary rules to fix the unrealistic combat (the above-mentioned monsters' threat ratings etc.). I don't know if it actually brings back the risky feeling but for me at least it is enough.



#27
teknoman2

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I have not played the BB so I can't say for sure, but the systems used in NWN 2 OC and Dragon AGe (and in old FF games) were pretty similar and It didn't really bother me. I feel like Resurrection magic stuff is way more immersion-breaking than the PoE's system (no-one really dies in the old IE games since you can just go and resurrect them when you want, except when the bodies get smashed). Games like PS:T, Dark Souls and NWN HotU made the dying more 'realistic' but that was done through lore. Giving the ability to resurrect to players would contradict with the lore too much.

 

I think it's the thought of not being able to die that takes the intensity out of the combat for some people and I can understand that but you can always apply your own imaginary rules to fix the unrealistic combat (the above-mentioned monsters' threat ratings etc.). I don't know if it actually brings back the risky feeling but for me at least it is enough.

here's how it goes from what i ve seen in the videos (BB players can correct me if im wrong). if you lose all stamina you fall unconscious until the end of the fight then have a small temporary penalty. if you lose all hp you get maimed and get up with 1 hp at the end of the fight with a big debuff that lasts until you rest. if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.

if you activate an optional game mode, you die the first time your hp goes to 0



#28
Gfted1

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...if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.


Huh, I didn't know that.

So then that character is irretrievably gone since there's no resurrection?

#29
rjshae

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It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.


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#30
Doppelschwert

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...if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.


Huh, I didn't know that.

So then that character is irretrievably gone since there's no resurrection?

 

 

Apparently it works like this although I didn't bother to check ingame:

http://pillarsofeter...edia.com/Maimed


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#31
teknoman2

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It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.

you know, all the "muh immersion" stuff everyone suggests in the long run detract from the game making it tedious.

it looks realistic if the maimed character is limping behind the rest, but after a while you will be tired of it since he will be slowing down the entire pace of the game. you have a maimed character and want to go to the inn? if he is limping it will take twice as long to get there for no real reason and after a few times it will get to be a boring chore and you will wish they had not included it



#32
Hassat Hunter

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KazaguL; Google "Opossum"... a species extinct if what you said is true ;)


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#33
Stun

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I'm fairly confident that the reasoning was along the following lines:

  • If healing is allowed via spells, then encounters will have to be balanced with the assumption that the player will have in-combat healing.  Assuming that these spells are limited to one class, it would "imbalance" the classes (contradicting a design goal).
  • Many IE players always reload from a save when someone dies rather than using resurrection magic, rendering these spells moot.  This is especially true at low levels (where this game takes place), when a dead character means playing inventory tetris to get the body and equipment into inventory, walking back to the template, and paying the fee -- a big hassle compared to simply reloading the game.
  • If players don't heal to 100% when combat ends then balancing the game becomes far more difficult -- some players will rest after every encounter (no matter how hard you make this) while others will only rest when seriously damaged.  This variation in playstyles makes it harder to balance / day abilities and "rest spamming" is considered to be the "wrong way to play the game" by a number of people.  By automatically healing everyone reduces this variation, simplifying balancing.

Those were in fact, the stated reasons.


All of them ridiculous.

- The first one is easily rendered moot with potions, scrolls and items that anyone can use. Radical concept, I know! And RPG fans love loot, so it's a win/win alternative.


-The second one is typical Josh Sawyer philosophy - worrying about the lowest common denominator instead of the *role player*. Hey Josh, Here's a news flash for you: In PoE, a total party wipe makes players reload their game, too. So what are you gonna do about that? Hmm? Are you going to scrap total party wipes in the sequel to eliminate such degenerate save-scumming? Or are you just gonna expand on your design and introduce a 3rd, 4th, or 5th type of health bar to make reloading even more rare?

-The third one shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone who knows better. Sawyer himself developed Icewind Dale 2 - a game that only took 10 months to make -and- didn't suffer from any balance issues, -and- didn't see players resting after every battle -and- didn't have to have 2 kinds of health bars to prevent 'degenerate reloading'.


Incidentally, if these are the *actual* reasons why they introduced an endurance bar (instead of just being the explanation given for public consumption) then the design is already a failure. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm finding myself both resting more frequently and reloading more frequently in this beta than I do in ANY of the IE games. The addition of a stamina bar is not making any difference whatsoever.

Edited by Stun, 28 January 2015 - 12:12 AM.

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#34
Emc2

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-The second one is typical Josh Sawyer wash - worrying about the lowest common denominator instead of the *role player*. Hey Josh, Here's a news flash for you: In PoE, a total party wipe makes players reload their game, too. So what are you gonna do about that? Hmm? Are you going to remove Death in the sequel to eliminate such degenerate save-scumming? Or are you just gonna expand on your design and introduce a 3rd and 4th type of health bar to make reloading even more rare?

Of course people reload after total wipe but if only one guy falls it's not a reason to reload for most people (unlike baldur's gate etc.). I'd say the endurance system objectively reduces the need for reloading. If, as you said, you still are doing the reloading just as much then the problem is somewhere else. Either that means dying isn't the biggest reason for reloading or they messed something else up even more.

Just to make things clear, I agree with your points.

Edited by Emc2, 28 January 2015 - 12:17 AM.


#35
Stun

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I'd say the endurance system objectively reduces the need for reloading.

It doesn't. Again, I'm finding myself reloading and resting far more often in the beta than I ever did in the IE games.

Of course, to be fair, this might not actually have anything to do with the endurance system. It *might* have more to do with the fact that there's no real healing magicks in the game...plus the fact that enemies in this game can hit pretty hard and the game doesn't give you a whole lot of options to mitigate that..... and the fact that the fatigue system is kinda wonky at the moment, forcing that 15 minute work day upon you even if you're not hurt at all.

Edited by Stun, 28 January 2015 - 12:32 AM.

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#36
Osvir

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I had hoped that the Endurance system had been something more to be honest. Health staying like the IE games, but that Endurance would've been like... an "Exhaustion" meter, every action you take would've cost "Endurance" (moving, attacking, defending, dodging, abilities, spells, etc.), and instead of "Passing out" when going to 0 Endurance, the Character would instead rest or take a breather, recover some Endurace, and then the Player can reintroduce them into the fight.

This would've made most sense, have the character become "immobile" when 0 Endurance (symbolising they are too tired to take action), enemies could still target him/her and the character will regenerate, say, 10% Endurance in a short time (also, taking no actions whatsoever would regenerate Endurance. So if you are a Rogue in this concept system, you go down to 50% Endurance, do Escape and then rest up/take a breather/take no action, the Endurance bar would regenerate slowly).

Lots of parameters, variables and scripts, and even further advancements to it though. There's also a question about dynamic, and how it would synchronize well. What happens to the "Exhausted One" when he/she has 3 enemies around him/her? How would I be able to save the character, what abilities would I have to use and would I have time to do it?



#37
rjshae

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It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.

you know, all the "muh immersion" stuff everyone suggests in the long run detract from the game making it tedious.

it looks realistic if the maimed character is limping behind the rest, but after a while you will be tired of it since he will be slowing down the entire pace of the game. you have a maimed character and want to go to the inn? if he is limping it will take twice as long to get there for no real reason and after a few times it will get to be a boring chore and you will wish they had not included it

 

Mmm, I only suggested an interval of discomfort and groaning while recovering in the aftermath of a battle. How did you translate that into an endless trial of slow, limping characters? Apparently you're reading additional meaning into my suggestion.



#38
Lephys

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Of course, to be fair, this might not actually have anything to do with the endurance system. It *might* have more to do with the fact that there's no real healing magicks in the game...plus the fact that enemies in this game can hit pretty hard and the game doesn't give you a whole lot of options to mitigate that..... and the fact that the fatigue system is kinda wonky at the moment, forcing that 15 minute work day upon you even if you're not hurt at all.


To be even fairer, it just sounds like the source of the problem is number values. Fix the wonky fatigue, and the hardness of hits, etc., and see if that doesn't drastically change the significance of the lack of healing magic, for example.

#39
teknoman2

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It would help with the immersion if downed party members looked like they were in pain while recovering, and perhaps groaning and grumbling.

you know, all the "muh immersion" stuff everyone suggests in the long run detract from the game making it tedious.

it looks realistic if the maimed character is limping behind the rest, but after a while you will be tired of it since he will be slowing down the entire pace of the game. you have a maimed character and want to go to the inn? if he is limping it will take twice as long to get there for no real reason and after a few times it will get to be a boring chore and you will wish they had not included it

 

Mmm, I only suggested an interval of discomfort and groaning while recovering in the aftermath of a battle. How did you translate that into an endless trial of slow, limping characters? Apparently you're reading additional meaning into my suggestion.

 

i think the mechanical debuff is enough... and i think to recall from the videos that characters with low hp are holding their sides



#40
aeonsim

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...if you lose that 1 hp before resting you die.


Huh, I didn't know that.

So then that character is irretrievably gone since there's no resurrection?

 

 

That is correct I had it happen to me a couple of times when playing on PoD when I tried to push through one more room/fight with several maimed companions, they take a blow chunk and their portrait disappears from the interface.

 

In general I like the health/endurance system it's a nice part way point between realism and resurrection magic which just does not make sense as it's been implemented in any game I've played (why does any one die if they can be resurrected). With the current system letting one of your party get knocked out by mistake punishes you for the rest of the combat by reducing the amount of damage you can deal and allowing the enemies to gang up on your remaining characters but if you can still pull off the fight you can continue with out having to pay a resurrection tax (gold usually though indirectly via scrolls or wands of resurrection or a high level spell slot). However if you make mistake after mistake in the combat your characters will reach a point where you have to pull back and think about what your doing or they'll permanently die. If you want to risk it or you haven't got any resting materials you can still push on at this point but you have to play really carefully to keep your characters alive.

 

Thus it seems to me that the setup encourages you to think about the fights at the harder difficulty levels while at the lower ones allows you to just charge in and pull of fights but the at the very last second with only a couple of party members still standing (at the eventual cost of more rests), while encouraging you to play a little better in the next fight.


Edited by aeonsim, 30 January 2015 - 03:38 PM.






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