PrimeJunta Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 While BG2 spell battles are out, the enemy mages in 392 are kind of disappointing. If you're rocking firearms, they're chunked in the opening. Arcane Veil also does not protect against firearms, and I don't think there's any "opening move" currently in the game that would defend a mage from that. Pelting the mage with arrows has much the same effect, only takes a little longer. They're just too fragile and too easy to interrupt. Which is kind of amusing given all the bellyaching over 'muscle wizards' a while back, actually. Something should be done to make enemy spellcasters more dangerous. They oughtn't be that easy to neutralize. 5 I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Sensuki Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Probably need some changes to the AI - throw a protection spell or two on themselves before casting anything might work but due to the complete lack of counterspelling in this game it's gonna be difficult to make them anything other than an easy target. 3
PrimeJunta Posted January 14, 2015 Author Posted January 14, 2015 The casting time would have to be instant though, otherwise that starting volley is going to get him first. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Sensuki Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 That kind of stuff won't be coming until the expansion, where they look into contingencies etc. Mirror Image in the IE games was cast very quickly but it could be interrupted. I haven't really bothered trying out Wizard protection spells because it's a waste of a spell IMO, I'd rather save it for dealing damage. 2
Luckmann Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Unless you start handing out cheats to the enemies, there's really no way to make defensive powers/buffs viable when it comes to opponents. Either they will be weak, because if they're not weak, they will be wildly overpowered due to absence of counterspelling principles. 1
archangel979 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Just let them start the fight with spells the power of Sleep/Color Spray/Web/Horror and they will be feared enough. They don't need to live long, just long enough to fire off such spells. 1
Luckmann Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Just let them start the fight with spells the power of Sleep/Color Spray/Web/Horror and they will be feared enough. They don't need to live long, just long enough to fire off such spells. Ideally, everyone should be able to initiate with all their abilities. 1
Sock Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 I tried a melee mage once, trying for a spell-sword type character. It didn't go well. All the protection spells have too short a duration and take too long to cast, and only buff one aspect of the mages combat abilities, when they need multiple areas impacted for it to really be useful. Honestly, like everyone here, I've found mages to be really underwhelming. Most of their combat spells are Friendly Fire, and the ones that aren't are extremely weak, even if they're single target. Their defensive buff abilities are completely useless in practice, so it really just boils down to using your other party members to protect the mage as the mage cannot protect itself. Frankly, the best thing I've done with a mage is to focus heavily on the blasts and rods, and treat them as a ranged unit that sometimes casts spells when the situation is right. Tough creatures have the health to make some of their spells (like combusting wounds) worthwhile. To make enemy spell casters more threatening vs melee, they need some kind of blink/teleport abilities, to take advantage of disengagement. Really, all mages should have that as a 3x per-encounter ability. For example, what was the spell from DnD where the mage would create an illusion of itself and then turn invisible? More abilities like that. I'd also throw in some kind of deception ability that works like a charm, but themeatically makes the mage trade places with an enemy target, and the targeted enemy takes on the appearance of the mage and is charmed (and immobile) for x duration, the idea being that your sharpshooter would now be targeting a charmed friendly unit. In short, they need more ways to avoid and redirect damage. 5
Sensuki Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) Yeah Implements with Blast and Penetrating Blast actually go alright, that damage stacks up. Arcane Assault is also a really good ability. It's got a quick cast time and a short recovery and it's Foe AoE only, so you can quickly spam those off at the start of combat for an edge, at no per-rest cost. It would also be nice if there was a way to make up that 10 starting accuracy deficit with a talent, like you can as a Priest. Implement Specialization or something. Edited January 14, 2015 by Sensuki 1
drunetovich Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Most of mage abilities seem to be useless due to friendly fire, by the time they finish Fireball melee brawl is full on an friends mixed with foes on the battlefield. In IE games i used fireballs as openers on enemy clusters scouted by rogue, it is not working so well here.
nipsen Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Unless you start handing out cheats to the enemies, there's really no way to make defensive powers/buffs viable when it comes to opponents. Either they will be weak, because if they're not weak, they will be wildly overpowered due to absence of counterspelling principles. You mean, exactly like in the IE games? Halleluja, it's a miracle! The game will now magically sell millions, because it's exactly like the IE games, down the the most annoying detail ever! Success! The injustice must end! Sign the petition and Free the Krug!
archangel979 Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Unless you start handing out cheats to the enemies, there's really no way to make defensive powers/buffs viable when it comes to opponents. Either they will be weak, because if they're not weak, they will be wildly overpowered due to absence of counterspelling principles. You mean, exactly like in the IE games? Halleluja, it's a miracle! The game will now magically sell millions, because it's exactly like the IE games, down the the most annoying detail ever! Success!Except BG did sell millions Bg experience with better graphics and better UI(showing more easy to understand rules) would do the same today. There was no need for so many changes. 2
nipsen Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Except BG did sell millions Yes, well done. And it was /because/ BG was an IE game, and had no innovations of any kind compared to earlier games. And in fact, all the problems were, undoubtedly, deliberate design decisions. And keeping those are therefore essential if PoE is ever to be popular. At the same time, if PoE doesn't sell millions of copies, it is because it's not similar enough to Baldur's Gate. It makes perfect logical sense! And nothing anyone will ever say will convince me otherwise. In fact, I'm now just holding over my ears and singing "lalalalala", just to make my point even more logically consistent. 1 The injustice must end! Sign the petition and Free the Krug!
Sensuki Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Just ignore nipsen archangel. He's only come here to ruin the thread most like. 1
Karkarov Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Come on nipsen give it a little rest. Mages in this game in my opinion are not at all too weak. You just have to be far more careful in how you use them, have to plan your character placement better, and build a good spell arsenal. The price they pay for their heinous levels of versatility is they are not god like in BG2 where they are the be all end all of the entire encounter. They can be very effective if used correctly though and that versatility lets them fit and be a contributor with basically any group makeup.
archangel979 Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 It makes perfect logical sense! And nothing anyone will ever say will convince me otherwise. In fact, I'm now just holding over my ears and singing "lalalalala", just to make my point even more logically consistent.You do that anyways in any topic you were part of. 1
Sensuki Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Player controlled Wizards are a good and useful character, but yeah as Karkarov said, they are squishy as (and also not super fun to play either, but yeah). That is the problem though, because of their squishiness - enemy wizards are super vulnerable to being just flat out taken out at the start of combat which doesn't feel very Infinity Engine. They should at least offer some more resistance than that. They can probably make it a little bit better with AI tweaks and stuff, but some of the problems are systemic/design. Edited January 15, 2015 by Sensuki 2
nipsen Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 but some of the problems are systemic/design. Why not humor us and list these fundamental design problems? Or I can do it for you: "It's not identical to the IE games". There, all done. The injustice must end! Sign the petition and Free the Krug!
archangel979 Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Player controlled Wizards are a good and useful character, but yeah as Karkarov said, they are squishy as (and also not super fun to play either, but yeah). That is the problem though, because of their squishiness - enemy wizards are super vulnerable to being just flat out taken out at the start of combat which doesn't feel very Infinity Engine. They should at least offer some more resistance than that. They can probably make it a little bit better with AI tweaks and stuff, but some of the problems are systemic/design. Well if they are reducing damage in next build, maybe the will survive longer.
nipsen Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Player controlled Wizards are a good and useful character, but yeah as Karkarov said, they are squishy as (and also not super fun to play either, but yeah). That is the problem though, because of their squishiness - enemy wizards are super vulnerable to being just flat out taken out at the start of combat which doesn't feel very Infinity Engine. They should at least offer some more resistance than that. They can probably make it a little bit better with AI tweaks and stuff, but some of the problems are systemic/design. Well if they are reducing damage in next build, maybe the will survive longer. Maybe if you're really careful, correcting the height of a table by sawing off a bit of each table-leg, one at a time, will also work. Just have faith. The injustice must end! Sign the petition and Free the Krug!
wanderon Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 I have not had many issues with BB mage being taken out immediately (on normal) altho I have him at the back of the formation (naked until we find a robe) and he uses his rod as much or more than spells due to friendly fire issues once combat gets going. Still he often supplies the killing blow on the toughest enemies with one of the missile spells as combat winds down thus earning his keep and tbh I'm not all that fond of mages so perhaps it just doesn't bother me if he is not all that awesome Nomadic Wayfarer of the Obsidian Order Not all those that wander are lost...
PrimeJunta Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 Oh, BB Mage is fine. But that's just because we haven't seen too many enemies with ranged weapons, and the ones we have don't tend to target him particularly often. I was talking about enemy mages. They're ridiculously easy to kill. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
illathid Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Does the AI make use of abilities granted from gear? You could give enemy mages defensive buffs on gear. To keep it from being too good for the PC you could make the abilities 1/day (as all per day abilities are effectively per encounter for enemies). Just a thought. 1 "Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic." -Josh Sawyer
Karkarov Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Oh, BB Mage is fine. But that's just because we haven't seen too many enemies with ranged weapons, and the ones we have don't tend to target him particularly often. I was talking about enemy mages. They're ridiculously easy to kill. Well this is where I think the complaint is a non issue. Because everything other than tanks, bosses, and mobs meant to simulate tanks are easy to kill. It isn't "just mages".
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