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392 - Significant problems: The Ranger and Light Weapons


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I just did something different, and it seemed to be working really well.

 

I made my ranger into an off-tank, and set him and the pet wolf in to tag team creatures. I picked the weapon and shield talent, and they alone handled Meredith like a pro.

 

Maybe I've been looking at the class all wrong. Maybe they're not meant for ranged dps, maybe they're meant for melee dps. Teaming up with their pet leads to flanking bonuses in a lot of situations, and if you take the talents that are useful in melee (like +accuracy when attacking same target), they're a very effective duo. 

 

Up until this moment, I was completely sold on using a chanter as my character when PoE goes live. I need to test more (ran into a bug where my pet vanished, icon and all), but I think that a sword and board ranger might actually be effective.

 

I'm glad you liked it, but... Medreth isn't much of a challenge, and I'm pretty sure you would've been able to gank him even more effectively with a fighter, monk, or rogue built for damage.

 

 

It's possible that I could have, yes, but my ranger still brings things in addition that the rogue, fighter, and monk do not. The ranger still has the pet, too, which still does open up different tactical options. However, just my pet and ranger were able to take Meredith out without any other assistance, and without taking any damage. While that can happen with the other classes, my point is it can also happen with the ranger which I think is pretty significant, since like everyone else in this thread, I found rangers to be underwhelming when used as a ranged unit.

 

They also obliterated beetles, and the team took out the full party guarding the dragon egg without anyone going down.

 

There seriously is something to a sword and board ranger.

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I like the animal companion but then my favorite character in DA;LO was Dog.   The ranger and his animal partner are bound together.  Just how this should be shown I am not sure.  Maybe the animal could be tweaked a little.  Maybe give the pair an endurance bonus?  The sword and board ranger is quite viable and ranged weapons can still be used.

 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I don't get why the rangers pet gets so much hate,

It might need some tweaking, like its survivability, but you want to play an archer without a pet you can just roll a rogue.

 

If you want to build a ranger as an archer or medieval woodsman the pet is somewhat unrealistic.  And if you want to make a purely ranged bowman, the shared health means that the pet can be a major liability by putting your health in melee range.

 

 

 

In the PoE setting, Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and master of the hunt and ranged weapons that are soul bonded to an animal. At least, that's how they were described in their Kickstarter update.

Wish they would have tried something more unique than just a pet. Hopefully they do something else to make it more interesting. I do agree with the others who said it was disappointing that the ranger is pigeon holed as a class.

 

 

As far as I remember they did try to not have pets but there was a cacophony of complaints from the forums.

Edited by anameforobsidian
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By the way for anyone who thinks a sword and board ranger is going against OE's intention for the ranger IMO that is what players do.  The devs mnake a game then the player does his/her own thing with it.  I love seeing if I can do something differently from what appears to be the intention of the developers.  If they anticpate me that is great as it shows they are smart and actually play games themselves. :)

 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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I don't get why the rangers pet gets so much hate,

It might need some tweaking, like its survivability, but you want to play an archer without a pet you can just roll a rogue.

 

If you want to build a ranger as an archer or medieval woodsman the pet is somewhat unrealistic.  And if you want to make a purely ranged bowman, the shared health means that the pet can be a major liability by putting your health in melee range.

 

 

 

In the PoE setting, Rangers are warriors of the woodlands and master of the hunt and ranged weapons that are soul bonded to an animal. At least, that's how they were described in their Kickstarter update.

Wish they would have tried something more unique than just a pet. Hopefully they do something else to make it more interesting. I do agree with the others who said it was disappointing that the ranger is pigeon holed as a class.

 

 

As far as I remember they did try to not have pets but there was a cacophony of complaints from the forums.

 

The pets fine Just wish there was something else with it that seperated it from ranger/hunter characters in other games that shoot bows and have pets.  I guess I kind of felt like the ranger should be swiss army knife type class.  Overall they are portrayed in many fantasy settings as being resourceful in any situation which is what gives them the edge.  Like they are the "Macgyver" of the fantasy world and should have abilities that reflect that resourcefulness.

Edited by DigitalCrack
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I just played for a couple hours as a "sword and board" ranger, and it was actually pretty fun. The only downsides I found were that the melee impact of the shared health can be very punishing if you're not extremely careful and the class talents to choose from are not conducive to anything other than a bow ranger. And that sucks. 

 

If there were class talents specific toward a melee ranger, I think this class would be a whole lot more fun (and viable) to play.

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If there were class talents specific toward a melee ranger, I think this class would be a whole lot more fun (and viable) to play.

 

When the class was first announced,  a lot of posters asked if there would be a non-pet alternative to what was announced.  When we found out that wasn't going to be an option, I pretty much decided to avoid the class entirely...just too gimmicky for my liking; to the point of belonging in a different type of game.  

 

I would suggest that posters keep lobbying for a melee alternative for the Ranger.  When the initial discussion was had, there were some nice ideas for Ranger builds that would be proficient at different ranges with different weapons; a swiss army knife type build as was mentioned earlier in this thread.  

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If you want to build a ranger as an archer or medieval woodsman the pet is somewhat unrealistic.  And if you want to make a purely ranged bowman, the shared health means that the pet can be a major liability by putting your health in melee range.

 

Then play a rogue and you'll get a marksman without a pet. Just ignore the class name, it doesn't look like rangers get anything nature related besides their pet anyways, maybe they should rename them beastmasters or something

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Something that would be fun for rangers to have that others classes don't really have (outside a few spells) are abilities that can be used to buff/prep before being in combat.  going along with the ranger being a scout of sorts it would make sense that a completely different set of pre-battle buff abilities could be given to them.  As a representation of their constant preparedness and heightened awareness of their surroundings, plus they would be the only class designed to be able to buff outside of combat. 

 

Anyway, Just a thought I had to spice up the ranger.  On the topic of light weapons, I created a paladin that dual wields daggers and he seems to deal death quite well.

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The nice thing with even the melee ranger is that the pet is excellent for scouting. I can even deal with the shared health mechanic as being a weakness for the ranger to balance out its exceptional scouting ability. I just don't want to have to feel railroaded by the class talents into a ranged build. All they would need to do is tweak the talents to give bonuses to any attack type and I think it would be fine.

 

I think it would be a really easy thing to fix the ranger class now. Viva la ranger-build-flexibility!

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The nice thing with even the melee ranger is that the pet is excellent for scouting. I can even deal with the shared health mechanic as being a weakness for the ranger to balance out its exceptional scouting ability. I just don't want to have to feel railroaded by the class talents into a ranged build. All they would need to do is tweak the talents to give bonuses to any attack type and I think it would be fine.

 

I think it would be a really easy thing to fix the ranger class now. Viva la ranger-build-flexibility!

They should have done that from the start considering no other class was forced into such a rigid role.

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Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more ranger talents that benefit a melee ranger, but the talent options are there for a melee ranger to take without wasting a point. Some aren't that appealing, but...

 

Next go around, I plan to use sabers (which come with a DoT), and the ranger talent that increases pet damage by 1.5x on targets suffering from a DoT.

 

I've tried with a 2h weapon and the related talent, but felt that it was still too fragile. Could try a dual wielding ranger, see if I can't just DPS everything to death.

Edited by Sock
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Can't edit posts? Oh well.

 

(Playing on hard) Did a quick run of killing the two backer NPCs in the tavern (full plate and a fine robe, die die die), Meredith, the two furriers, and then ran through the Temple of Skaen, taking out the beetles and the first five men fought there. 

 

My dual saber wielding ranger was a thousand times more survivable than the dual wielding rogue. Further, his damage was twice the rogues; 850 vs 407. Small test, but, I wanted to see if it was viable and it actually is. The ranger benefits from higher defenses in general compared to the rogue, too. The rogue tops the ranger with reflexes, but ranger has every other defense higher than the rogue. 

 

I think it's ironic how the ranger is better at melee, while the rogue is better at range.

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@Sock Huh, interesting. And cool. Sounds like if they drop the shared health thing and find some other non-unfun way to balance out Mr. Bear that rangers might turn out to be a lot more fun and versatile than I thought.

 

But yeah, I think the numbers do need adjusting if the dedicated stabber is better at range and the dedicated ranger is better at stabbing.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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Can't edit posts? Oh well.

 

(Playing on hard) Did a quick run of killing the two backer NPCs in the tavern (full plate and a fine robe, die die die), Meredith, the two furriers, and then ran through the Temple of Skaen, taking out the beetles and the first five men fought there. 

 

My dual saber wielding ranger was a thousand times more survivable than the dual wielding rogue. Further, his damage was twice the rogues; 850 vs 407. Small test, but, I wanted to see if it was viable and it actually is. The ranger benefits from higher defenses in general compared to the rogue, too. The rogue tops the ranger with reflexes, but ranger has every other defense higher than the rogue. 

 

I think it's ironic how the ranger is better at melee, while the rogue is better at range.

 

I actually find the idea of a dual-wielding saber-ranger really appealing.

 

Speaking specifically about the ranger, it needs:

  • Higher flexibility in abilities to highlight that it's not just meant to be ranged. No other class is pigeonholed like this in concept or mechanics.
  • Actually be better at ranged, paradoxically. It appears a lot of people have pigeonholed their thinking into thinking that the ranger was the dedicated archer class, while they obviously do quite good with other builds. So even though everything with the abilities and concept seems to hint at the ranger being meant to be ranged, he's actually not good at it.
  • Drop the damn shared health pool. If it causes balance issues, find another solution.
  • Add more nature-related aspects or abilities. Rangers in PoE aren't getting druid-y spells like in DnD, but the concept still seems to be very nature-oriented. But there is very little mechanical support for this. Per-Day Poisons or Traps? Per-Encounter Barkskin? Maybe throw some Shaman on the class.

All in my own humble opinion, of course. That's what I've taken home from the discussion so far.

Edited by Luckmann

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The nice thing with even the melee ranger is that the pet is excellent for scouting. I can even deal with the shared health mechanic as being a weakness for the ranger to balance out its exceptional scouting ability. I just don't want to have to feel railroaded by the class talents into a ranged build. All they would need to do is tweak the talents to give bonuses to any attack type and I think it would be fine.

 

I think it would be a really easy thing to fix the ranger class now. Viva la ranger-build-flexibility!

 

With the way they changed the talent selection, just focus on the pet and take the general melee talents at level up. Nothing is forcing you to select the ranged talents.

Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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I actually find the idea of a dual-wielding saber-ranger really appealing.

 

Speaking specifically about the ranger, it needs:

  • Higher flexibility in abilities to highlight that it's not just meant to be ranged. No other class is pigeonholed like this in concept or mechanics.
  • Actually be better at ranged, paradoxically. It appears a lot of people have pigeonholed their thinking into thinking that the ranger was the dedicated archer class, while they obviously do quite good with other builds. So even though everything with the abilities and concept seems to hint at the ranger being meant to be ranged, he's actually not good at it.
  • Drop the damn shared health pool. If it causes balance issues, find another solution.
  • Add more nature-related aspects or abilities. Rangers in PoE aren't getting druid-y spells like in DnD, but the concept still seems to be very nature-oriented. But there is very little mechanical support for this. Per-Day Poisons or Traps? Per-Encounter Barkskin? Maybe throw some Shaman on the class.

All in my own humble opinion, of course. That's what I've taken home from the discussion so far.

 

 

I feel that there's a difference between "druid" and "survivalist". I'd like to see the ranger with abilities that actually remove conditions. There are several abilities that repress conditions, but few that actually clenase or remove them. I do like the idea of the ranger beind the dedicated trapper, too. Per-day "natural traps" that take on an effect depending on terrain (forrest is a snare, field is a spike pit, city is some kind debuff, etc).

 

As far as the shared health pool goes, I'm not sure how I feel about it, long term. It provides additional HP (my ranger has had more endurance than my fighter, with just 10 con), it also seems to provide additional healing. I need to test further, but I think that anytime you heal the ranger, you heal the pet for 50%, and both gain a total of 150% healing. I saw once where Benevolence went off and healing the ranger for 4 and the pet was healed for 2, so due to shared health they gained 6hp.

 

Ranger absolutely needs to be better at range. I wouldn't mind a ranged pet, let me tame a beetle that spits acid or something. I think rangers would be better at range if they were able to benefit from all the perks of being a ranged unit. Free selection of targets (not feasible currently due to disengagement attacks on the pet) and removed from damage (due to shared health and the core concept of the ranger class, this is denied to the ranger) being the two big perks they're denied. A ranged pet could resolve those issues.

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@Sock, have you had a problem with the Ranger and companion not resetting health and endurance when leveling up?  I think  there is a bug there as I have had that happpen.  Everyone else goes back to 100% but not the ranger and companion.

 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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Maybe? I'm not 100%, I only level up when turning in a quest, which means being in town with access to the inn. I try to keep the resting buff on at all times, just incase stats impacted by it can be used in a conversation somewhere. But, I do seem to recall some situation where I was annoyed that my ranger and pet weren't at full health when everyone else was.

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