Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[Malcador]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134397896&postcount=12285

 

Nonek and others please read this link that Elerond posted and then comment about what you disagree with

Did you write that ? Amusing to use a site that pretty much bans anyone that isn't like you pretty much.

 

Some of the points he listed out is true, but have to think he's not going to list points they are correct about.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Malcador

[Enoch]

But of course GG has raised some valid concerns

Like what? 

 

I mean, apart from "some person I've barely heard of said or did something dishonest or mean." 

Edited October 15, 2014 by Enoch

[Darth InSidious]

I really think we need to stop talking about gaming "journalists". They're not journalists. They're advert copywriters. Gaming media outlets are glorified advertising, and alwasy have been. Thus there is no conflict of interest, and no requirement for them to be neutral or to declare interests. (Of course, they never were anything but in the pocket of devs and pubishers, and the idea of journalistic ethics is in large part an impolite fiction anyway.)

Edited October 15, 2014 by Darth InSidious

[Elerond]

http://imgur.com/OPj5gLc

 

Again, THESE are the types of reasons that yes, I am starting to become untrusting of the other side. Put two and two together and figure out why Malaysia is the most common supporter of StopGamerGate worldwide.

 

[BruceVC]

 

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134397896&postcount=12285

 

Nonek and others please read this link that Elerond posted and then comment about what you disagree with

 

Bruce please link something better than that "this is a valid post and I urge you all to read it" hogwash, or you're never going to get taken seriously. Grayson is guilty of ethical misconduct, he did not have to write anything to be guilty of that, he is a game journalist who slept with a developer and did not recuse himself or declare a conflict of interest, this is childishly simple. Nobody is focused on Ms Quinn's adulteries and rapes, she hardly gets mentioned anymore.

 

 

Its a pity you can't read the article and see that the foundation for the basis of the creation of GG is based on a false premise

 

 

GG came to existence because of the perceived lack of journalist integrity, the common argument being " Zoe's game only did well because she slept with Grayson to get positive coverage"

 

But if there relationship happened only after the game was reviewed and he never wrote the review what is the issue?

 

And you can't seriously tell me that you have an issue if any person in the gaming industry has any kind of physical relationship with other people in the industry ?Why is there sex life such a concern to you? As long as it doesn't lead to some sort of corruption or favouritism, as this incident wasn't, its not really the business of anyone  but the people involved ?

[BruceVC]

 

But of course GG has raised some valid concerns

Like what? 

 

I mean, apart from "some person I've barely heard of said or did something dishonest or mean." 

 

 

I suppose we need more transparency around how gaming journalists review games?

 

But I am not the best person to discuss the positive side of GG, there are plenty of other people who can give you that information

[Longknife]

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/gamergate-and-women-in-video-game-culture/543c686878c90a71ff000157

 

EDIT: One could call this Part 2 to Huffington Post's coverage of GamerGate.

 

 

I for one am upset with Huffington Post on this. Why?

 

 

Here, I actually wrote up my reasonings on this. Please do me a favor and actually read it: http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jbzoz/why_the_huffington_posts_coverage_isnt_good/

[Blarghagh]

Question, have any of the prominent GG "victims" been anything other than North American?

 

Because I was discussing this with a female dev friend and she claimed it was an American problem because she had never been anything but accepted by gamers. She didn't really qualify it because it was an offhand comment but I'm interested.

Edited October 15, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Malcador]

 

Herr Cheong is sending death threats!

[TrashMan]

I think 99% of all threts are hot gas and nothing more.

 

When is hte last time you heard of a internet threat amounting to anything?

The guy threatening you could be a kid, a drunkard or just a overly-emotinal person who would never go trough with it anyway.

Not to mention that the person doing the threatining might live on the other side of the globe. He'll harldy have the time OR $$$ to fly over just to cause s*** that would definately land him in jail.

[Longknife]

 

http://imgur.com/OPj5gLc

 

Again, THESE are the types of reasons that yes, I am starting to become untrusting of the other side. Put two and two together and figure out why Malaysia is the most common supporter of StopGamerGate worldwide.

 

 

 

 

Well played. Sorry, I did just wake up. Not trying to excuse myself, but I should know better than to not double-check on that.

[TrashMan]

I have to say, I'm confused by this whole thing. 

 

It all seems to be an bizarre confluence of two main points that have no clear relation to each other.  Sure, the gaming press has huge conflict-of-interest problems.  (And I'm shocked that there is gambling going on in this establishment!)  How does that have anything at all to do with the would-be-hilarious-if-it-weren't-so-sad "feminism ruins everything" derpfest that appears to be going on? 

 

It gets complicated becasue there's million of people involved, all with their own ideas, ideals and agendas.

And you have people trying to use the entire thing to push their own agendas, which bring in other people, etc, etc..

[Nonek]

 

Its a pity you can't read the article and see that the foundation for the basis of the creation of GG is based on a false premise

 

 

GG came to existence because of the perceived lack of journalist integrity, the common argument being " Zoe's game only did well because she slept with Grayson to get positive coverage"

 

But if there relationship happened only after the game was reviewed and he never wrote the review what is the issue?

 

And you can't seriously tell me that you have an issue if any person in the gaming industry has any kind of physical relationship with other people in the industry ?Why is there sex life such a concern to you? As long as it doesn't lead to some sort of corruption or favouritism, as this incident wasn't, its not really the business of anyone  but the people involved ?

 

 

No gg came into existence because of the lack of journalistic integrity, and years of frustration over this, nobody cares about Ms Quinn's adultery but you.

 

I'll try and make it very simple Bruce, though I don't know if i'll be successful: As a journalist you have a duty to inform the public objectively, without bias and following ethical guidelines as society regards journalism as an important function, and those whom practise it to be held to a more exacting standard. Or used to due to Watergate and various other investigations. To be a journalist one must follow an ethical code, this is not mandated by me and I have no interest in it, to remain seperate from your subject, to diminish bias as much as possible, to report truthfully on your discoveries, and to neither make improper use of your position or give the appearance of such.

 

By commiting adultery with a developer, his subject matter, Mr Grayson made an ethical mistake. This is not a problem until he failed to recuse himself from any professional dealings with her, or made sure that his editor knew that he had a significant conflict of interest between his private life and his duty to report objectively to his audience. He did neither and was caught out when this scandal aired, thus he is guilty of ethical misconduct, bringing his profession into disrepute and a blatant lack of ethics. This is not optional, it is the ethics covered when one achieves a journalism degree.

 

He did not have to write anything about Ms Quinn or his adultery with her, the damage had allready been done. Read any paper on journalistic ethics or ask any professional, they'll agree with me, Mr Grayson gave not just the appearance of impropriety but the actuality.

 

Sorry to the rest of the forum for having to repeat myself.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

 

 

Its a pity you can't read the article and see that the foundation for the basis of the creation of GG is based on a false premise

 

 

GG came to existence because of the perceived lack of journalist integrity, the common argument being " Zoe's game only did well because she slept with Grayson to get positive coverage"

 

But if there relationship happened only after the game was reviewed and he never wrote the review what is the issue?

 

And you can't seriously tell me that you have an issue if any person in the gaming industry has any kind of physical relationship with other people in the industry ?Why is there sex life such a concern to you? As long as it doesn't lead to some sort of corruption or favouritism, as this incident wasn't, its not really the business of anyone  but the people involved ?

 

 

No gg came into existence because of the lack of journalistic integrity, and years of frustration over this, nobody cares about Ms Quinn's adultery but you.

 

I'll try and make it very simple Bruce, though I don't know if i'll be successful: As a journalist you have a duty to inform the public objectively, without bias and following ethical guidelines as society regards journalism as an important function. Or used to due to Watergate and various other investigations. To be a journalist one must follow an ethical code, this is not mandated by me and I have no interest in it, to remain seperate from your subject, to diminish bias as much as possible, to report truthfully on your discoveries, and to neither make improper use of your position or give the appearance of such.

 

By commiting adultery with a developer, his subject matter, Mr Grayson made an ethical mistake. This is not a problem until he failed to recuse himself from any professional dealings with her, or made sure that his editor knew that he had a significant conflict of interest between his private life and his duty to report objectively to his audience. He did neither and was caught out when this scandal aired, thus he is guilty of ethical misconduct, bringing his profession into disrepute and a blatant lack of ethics. This is not optional, it is the ethics covered when one achieves a journalism degree.

 

He did not have to write anything about Ms Quinn or his adultery with her, the damage had allready been done. Read any paper on journalistic ethics or ask any professional, they'll agree with me, Mr Grayson gave not just the appearance of impropriety but the actuality.

 

Sorry to the rest of the forum for having to repeat myself.

 

 

Do you really consider the people who write reviews about games the same as a journalist who works for the example at the Economist? I can't believe you really believe that, anyone can write reviews about games Nonek. You just need a website and to have played the game. You are holding "gaming journalists " to far high a standard IMO

 

But I'm not saying they mustn't have integrity or write interesting and relevant reviews , but lets not exaggerate what they do and what it means to be a " gaming journalist "

[Enoch]

 

 

Its a pity you can't read the article and see that the foundation for the basis of the creation of GG is based on a false premise

 

 

GG came to existence because of the perceived lack of journalist integrity, the common argument being " Zoe's game only did well because she slept with Grayson to get positive coverage"

 

But if there relationship happened only after the game was reviewed and he never wrote the review what is the issue?

 

And you can't seriously tell me that you have an issue if any person in the gaming industry has any kind of physical relationship with other people in the industry ?Why is there sex life such a concern to you? As long as it doesn't lead to some sort of corruption or favouritism, as this incident wasn't, its not really the business of anyone  but the people involved ?

 

 

No gg came into existence because of the lack of journalistic integrity, and years of frustration over this, nobody cares about Ms Quinn's adultery but you.

 

I'll try and make it very simple Bruce, though I don't know if i'll be successful: As a journalist you have a duty to inform the public objectively, without bias and following ethical guidelines as society regards journalism as an important function, and those whom practise it to be held to a more exacting standard. Or used to due to Watergate and various other investigations. To be a journalist one must follow an ethical code, this is not mandated by me and I have no interest in it, to remain seperate from your subject, to diminish bias as much as possible, to report truthfully on your discoveries, and to neither make improper use of your position or give the appearance of such.

 

By commiting adultery with a developer, his subject matter, Mr Grayson made an ethical mistake. This is not a problem until he failed to recuse himself from any professional dealings with her, or made sure that his editor knew that he had a significant conflict of interest between his private life and his duty to report objectively to his audience. He did neither and was caught out when this scandal aired, thus he is guilty of ethical misconduct, bringing his profession into disrepute and a blatant lack of ethics. This is not optional, it is the ethics covered when one achieves a journalism degree.

 

He did not have to write anything about Ms Quinn or his adultery with her, the damage had allready been done. Read any paper on journalistic ethics or ask any professional, they'll agree with me, Mr Grayson gave not just the appearance of impropriety but the actuality.

 

Sorry to the rest of the forum for having to repeat myself.

 

But why this ethical mistake?  It's a teeny-tiny story about a teeny-tiny game in a multi-billion-dollar industry.  Is is so far-fetched to conclude that folks' focusing on this incident has something to do with the fact it's a salacious story about a woman who made a game that the traditional gaming audience didn't like? 

 

Objecting to the Quinn-Grayson thing in the light of everything that goes on between major games publishers and major games publications is like complaining that the elephant in the room has a pimple on its ass. 

[Nonek]

Oh for heavens sake, journalistic ethics are not optional if one wishes to call themselves a journalist, if you wish to be a blogger fine, I and I assume gamergate will not hold you to the higher ideals that journalistic integrity demands. Until such time as you declare you're a blogger, I will.

 

As I said earlier this is the result, for me at least, of years of journalistic practises that are unfit for purpose, it is not just about this single incident, this was the spark for years of frustration with game journalism and its corruption.

 

I really shouldn't have to be having to explain this so many times. I'm off to play with my little ones, goodnight.

[Darth InSidious]

Oh for heavens sake, journalistic ethics are not optional if one wishes to call themselves a journalist, if you wish to be a blogger fine, I and I assume gamergate will not hold you to the higher ideals that journalistic integrity demands. Until such time as you declare you're a blogger, I will.

 

As I said earlier this is the result, for me at least, of years of journalistic practises that are unfit for purpose, it is not just about this single incident, this was the spark for years of frustration with game journalism and its corruption.

 

I really shouldn't have to be having to explain this so many times. I'm off to play with my little ones, goodnight.

 

But in the first place journalistic ethics don't exist, and the very term borders on self-contradiction, and in the second place, gaming "journalists" are just glorified advertisers.

[Fighter]

Okay let me try to explain this a different way

 

What is the objective of GG? Everyone can respond, give me the 2-3 main objectives that GG endeavors to achieve

 

I'll tell how to #stopgamergate2014:

 

- Adopt/Clarify/Reinstate an ethics policy. Do so loudly in clear, plain, straightforward manner without any unnecessary ramblings about politics or internet toxicity. Do not include in this section the 5 paragraphs about misogyny, save that itch for another time. Commit clearly to avoid or disclose any conflicts of interest. Commit to objectivity and impartiality as best you can, leave the ridiculous ramblings and snark about your strawman views of the real world application of objectivity out of it.

 

- Cover the the harassment and doxxing of the side you aren't covering in a proper article. Condemn it in the same terms you condemn all other harassment. Admit that if you expect gamergaters to own up to their crap you have to own up to yours or if these people don't speak for you neither do random bigots speak for most gamers. Again, clearly, plainly, loudly. Admit that any double standards and hypocrisy on the matter are unacceptable.

 

- Apologise, without reservation, without any between the lines jabs or the aforementioned 5 paragraphs about misogyny, in a plain and straightforward manner, to anyone who took any articles or social media statement by any of the site's staff made about the "gamer identity" as an insulting stereotype imposed on their hobby and themselves. Do so loudly in a manner befitting the scale of GG and not in some vague tweet. I don't care if you think you're misunderstood, include whatever "we didn't mean it like that statements" but swallow your snobbish pride and do it. Even if you aren't Gamasutra and the like still make a statement and clarify your stance with a healthy measure of respect for video game players.

 

- Comment on/condemn the alleged blacklisting of developers based on the views the site's journalists/editors disagree with. Commit to covering what the public shows interest in with a measure of balance.

 

- Now talk about misogyny as a toxic fringe that poisons discussion that while should not be ignored also should not be an excuse or shield held against the majority at large. Here you can run wild to your hearts content in the thesaurus and compete in the use of the most ferocious and melodramatic adjectives of condemnation like, horrendous, sickening, depraved.  But mention again how it's an issue on both sides because man there is been hilariously plentiful of dismissing women and minorities as "straight white guys" and being made fools of on the anti-GG side. And if anything is 'problematic' that qualifies also.

 

Whoever is still left in GG afterwards we can then talk about labelling as a misogynist mob. But this isn't going to be stopped by snorting acid at GG.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Fighter

[Shallow]

 

 

 

Looking for evidence of corruption is never a bad thing, regardless of how questionable your motives are

Except what if that corruption doesn't exist? What if it only exists in your head because of your own prejudice?

Then whoever is looking for corruption is wasting their own personal time, so who cares?

 

So, using your own logic, it's okay to dox people, drive them from their home, and threaten to shoot up schools all in the name of "looking for corruption"?

 

I mean, you cast a pretty wide net with your words.

 

My entire post (not just the tiny slip you quoted) states that it mustn't severely infringe on privacy, and threatening to shoot up schools (and doxxing for that matter) has jack **** to do with looking for corruption. Honestly, I'm slightly offended by you drawing what I said so severely out of proportion. Using any logic at all and not just tying unrelated stuff together, what the hell does doxxing and deaththreats have to do with looking into available information and looking for corruption?

[Malcador]

Funny too, I had thought GG was out of steam this week. Well timed death threats stoked things back up

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Looking for evidence of corruption is never a bad thing, regardless of how questionable your motives are

Except what if that corruption doesn't exist? What if it only exists in your head because of your own prejudice?

Then whoever is looking for corruption is wasting their own personal time, so who cares?

 

So, using your own logic, it's okay to dox people, drive them from their home, and threaten to shoot up schools all in the name of "looking for corruption"?

 

I mean, you cast a pretty wide net with your words.

 

My entire post (not just the tiny slip you quoted) states that it mustn't severely infringe on privacy, and threatening to shoot up schools (and doxxing for that matter) has jack **** to do with looking for corruption. Honestly, I'm slightly offended by you drawing what I said so severely out of proportion. Using any logic at all and not just tying unrelated stuff together, what the hell does doxxing and deaththreats have to do with looking into available information and looking for corruption?

 

 

I think what he means is some people on GG claim there objective is tackle corruption but in fact  they aren't concerned about corruption at all and  have used the medium of GG to seriously harass people and basically engage in real bigotry and misogyny

Edited October 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

Okay let me try to explain this a different way

 

What is the objective of GG? Everyone can respond, give me the 2-3 main objectives that GG endeavors to achieve

 

I'll tell how to #stopgamergate2014:

 

- Adopt/Clarify/Reinstate an ethics policy. Do so loudly in clear, plain, straightforward manner without any unnecessary ramblings about politics or internet toxicity. Do not include in this section the 5 paragraphs about misogyny, save that itch for another time. Commit clearly to avoid or disclose any conflicts of interest. Commit to objectivity and impartiality as best you can, leave the ridiculous ramblings and snark about your strawman views of the real world application of objectivity out of it.

 

- Cover the the harassment and doxxing of the side you aren't covering in a proper article. Condemn it in the same terms you condemn all other harassment. Admit that if you expect gamergaters to own up to their crap you have to own up to yours or if these people don't speak for you neither do random bigots speak for most gamers. Again, clearly, plainly, loudly. Admit that any double standards and hypocrisy on the matter are unacceptable.

 

- Apologise, without reservation, without any between the lines jabs or the aforementioned 5 paragraphs about misogyny, in a plain and straightforward manner, to anyone who took any articles or social media statement by any of the site's staff made about the "gamer identity" as an insulting stereotype imposed on their hobby and themselves. Do so loudly in a manner befitting the scale of GG and not in some vague tweet. I don't care if you think you're misunderstood, include whatever "we didn't mean it like that statements" but swallow your snobbish pride and do it. Even if you aren't Gamasutra and the like still make a statement and clarify your stance with a healthy measure of respect for video game players.

 

- Comment on/condemn the alleged blacklisting of developers based on the views the site's journalists/editors disagree with. Commit to covering what the public shows interest in with a measure of balance.

 

- Now talk about misogyny as a toxic fringe that poisons discussion that while should not be ignored also should not be an excuse or shield held against the majority at large. Here you can run wild to your hearts content in the thesaurus and compete in the use of the most ferocious and melodramatic adjectives of condemnation like, horrendous, sickening, depraved.  But mention again how it's an issue on both sides because man there is been hilariously plentiful of dismissing women and minorities as "straight white guys" and being made fools of on the anti-GG side. And if anything is 'problematic' that qualifies also.

 

Whoever is still left in GG afterwards we can then talk about labelling as a misogynist mob. But this isn't going to be stopped by snorting acid at GG.

 

 

I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean, are these point what GG stands for or for what #stopgamergate2014 stands for

 

Because I want to know what GG stands for ?

[kirottu]

- Adopt/Clarify/Reinstate an ethics policy. Do so loudly in clear, plain, straightforward manner without any unnecessary ramblings about politics or internet toxicity.

This would be enough for me.

[Shallow]

 

 

So, using your own logic, it's okay to dox people, drive them from their home, and threaten to shoot up schools all in the name of "looking for corruption"?

 

 

I mean, you cast a pretty wide net with your words.

 

My entire post (not just the tiny slip you quoted) states that it mustn't severely infringe on privacy, and threatening to shoot up schools (and doxxing for that matter) has jack **** to do with looking for corruption. Honestly, I'm slightly offended by you drawing what I said so severely out of proportion. Using any logic at all and not just tying unrelated stuff together, what the hell does doxxing and deaththreats have to do with looking into available information and looking for corruption?

 

 

I think what he means is some people on GG claim there objective is tackle corruption but in fact  they aren't concerned about corruption at all and  have used the medium of GG to seriously harass people and basically engage in real bigotry and misogyny

 

 

Yeah well that has absolutely nothing to do with my post or his post for that matter, if that's what he means, maybe he shouldn't go off trying to shove crap down my throat or apply my logic in nonsensical manners. It doesn't matter whether that's how he feels, it doesn't excuse such extreme levels of strawmanning me.

[Blarghagh]

- Adopt/Clarify/Reinstate an ethics policy. Do so loudly in clear, plain, straightforward manner without any unnecessary ramblings about politics or internet toxicity.

This would be enough for me.

 

Ditto.