Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[Ineth]

But don't get me wrong, I root for the Moderate Feminists who actually have a sound ideology of very deserving equality:

"Women are treated bad in general, they earn less than men, and get worse treatment than men. They have to work harder than men to reach the same levels as men in any industry. This is not very equal. Men should take a couple of steps down, and women should take a couple of steps up. This would cause equality"

 

"earn less than men" is a canard that just won't die. It's like the high council of feminists came together and said: Damn, repeating it ten million times still did not make it true. Lets try and see if it becomes true if we repeat it a hundred million times!

 

"get worse treatment than men" is a popular claim, but probably not supported by evidence if you look at society as a whole (rather than looking at specific situations where women have it tough, like trying to establish themselves in a certain male-dominated niches). Note that:

• The U.S. judicial system, for example, definitely does not treat women worse than men; quite the opposite.
• The fact that a man getting slapped or punched in public is more or less socially acceptable, but when it happens to a woman we can't help but be outraged, indicates that general social etiquette that we grew up with, does not favour treating women worse than men.
• As for online abuse, I think in one of her videos C.H. Sommers presented some interesting studies which actually counted and classified abusive tweets and comments (rather than spinning wild theories based on anecdotes, like other feminist tend to do), and those studies concluded that the amount of abuse received does not statistically vary with gender, except for well-known celebrities where the male ones actually get more abuse.

  I sometimes wonder if the reason that so many women feel they are being specifically targeted by online hate, is that the social etiquette of Western culture leads women to be treated more courteously and less rough than men in real-life, but on the Internet that etiquette breaks down due to (semi-)anonymity, and women get the same rough treatment as men except they aren't used to it.

  But this is a dangerous path of thought to explore; it probably makes me a misogynist^tm just entertaining the possibility...

"Men should take a couple of steps down" -- even if your empirical claims were true, why would men need to be devalued? Surely, the just path to equality would be to make sure everyone has the same opportunities as those 'at the top of the ladder', rather than trying to artificially bring them down.

[Malcador]

So now a new hashtag is born! #StopGamerGate2014, as Sarkeesian faced a massacre threat. Ah, crazies ruin it for everyone

 

Edited October 15, 2014 by Malcador

[Elerond]

So now a new hashtag is born! #StopGamerGate2014, as Sarkeesian faced a massacre threat. Ah, crazies ruin it for everyone

 

Yup

 

[TrashMan]

 

It is not something that companies do intentionally out of malice, but that happens because of much more obscure factors, which is why fixing it is difficult and time consuming process. Especially when many of those factors originate from things in general social consensus and what kind views people have grown with.

 

For example companies often think that they treat men and women equally but their own statistics often show that women with same qualifications than men get offered smaller starting salary, which many women take as face value as they in anonymous inquiries about subject often value their time less than men, and often you can also find that men get more often and bigger raises than women, but it is also shown that women typically ask less and smaller raises than men.

 

 

I want to see those statistics.

There's a lot of talk about it, but I've yet to hear about actual examples, only "hear-says".

 

I work in a software company and most of the staff is women. They get paid just as much. Heck, every woman I know in various other companies and jobs and talked about it, never complained that their wages were lower.

 

There are always differences between employes, but there are many factors to that - overtime, bonuses, work quotas, etc, etc..

 

 

[Nonek]

I wonder if Gamergate ought to consider standing up more for developers? Ms Wu stating that developers are sexist but too stupid to see that is rather uncomplimentary, and from what i've seen most developers are intelligent, well educated, liberal and customer focused. In point of fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if developers actively look to hire more female talent, but simply cannot find an abundant supply, as this is one of the jobs that men generally prefer. Just like women generally dominate dancing, nursing, domestic services etcetera.

 

#Stopgamergate: Don't let the dead rise and stand up for themselves. Quite amusing.

[Hiro Protagonist]

It is not something that companies do intentionally out of malice, but that happens because of much more obscure factors, which is why fixing it is difficult and time consuming process. Especially when many of those factors originate from things in general social consensus and what kind views people have grown with.

 

For example companies often think that they treat men and women equally but their own statistics often show that women with same qualifications than men get offered smaller starting salary, which many women take as face value as they in anonymous inquiries about subject often value their time less than men, and often you can also find that men get more often and bigger raises than women, but it is also shown that women typically ask less and smaller raises than men. Where we come back to that point where I said that difference in salary isn't necessary because of malice/sexism/etc. from company but because of our societies views about subject and how we raise and educate our children and how our culture influences (like people not even believing in the subject or making light about subject) them. And it also should be remembered that people work 40-60 years of their life so salary statistics are still influenced by politics of 1940s and 1950s, which make subject even more complicate to analyse and to find solution (which all the members of society don't even want to do in the first place). 

 

 

Sounds like a lot of baloney. So you're suggesting women can't negotiate a better starting salary than a man even though it's anonymous. Women value their time less than a man. And Women typically ask less than a man? And women can't negotiate a better pay rise. Holy blame the woman, Batman!

 

But even so, if you're a manager and you have a man and a woman applying for the same job, with the same credentials. You as the manager isn't going to hire the woman who gets paid less? You're the manager, you need to keep costs down. You would hire the woman for less pay.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Damned good and convincing circumstantial evidence? Also yes: http://i.lightimg.com/34d0b14a.jpg

 

"Asshat" is also a favorite of mine.

 

OH MY GOD IT WAS ME ALL ALONG. ULTIMATE PROOFZ!4!!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I wonder if Gamergate ought to consider standing up more for developers? Ms Wu stating that developers are sexist but too stupid to see that is rather uncomplimentary, and from what i've seen most developers are intelligent, well educated, liberal and customer focused. In point of fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if developers actively look to hire more female talent, but simply cannot find an abundant supply, as this is one of the jobs that men generally prefer. Just like women generally dominate dancing, nursing, domestic services etcetera.

 

#Stopgamergate: Don't let the dead rise and stand up for themselves. Quite amusing.

I'm still not sure what the status of our collective death is. Were we raised, transformed into undead, or reincarnated?

[Nonek]

#AskBruceCampbell?

 

Edit: Are we dead, and are we evil, are we human, or are we dancer?

Edited October 15, 2014 by Nonek

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

#AskBruceCampbell?

 

Edit: Are we dead, and are we evil, are we human, or are we dancer?

I'm the space invader.

[Elerond]

 

 

It is not something that companies do intentionally out of malice, but that happens because of much more obscure factors, which is why fixing it is difficult and time consuming process. Especially when many of those factors originate from things in general social consensus and what kind views people have grown with.

 

For example companies often think that they treat men and women equally but their own statistics often show that women with same qualifications than men get offered smaller starting salary, which many women take as face value as they in anonymous inquiries about subject often value their time less than men, and often you can also find that men get more often and bigger raises than women, but it is also shown that women typically ask less and smaller raises than men.

 

 

I want to see those statistics.

There's a lot of talk about it, but I've yet to hear about actual examples, only "hear-says".

 

I work in a software company and most of the staff is women. They get paid just as much. Heck, every woman I know in various other companies and jobs and talked about it, never complained that their wages were lower.

 

There are always differences between employes, but there are many factors to that - overtime, bonuses, work quotas, etc, etc..

 

 

 

 

You can look them up by searching studies about salary differences. I will not quote any specific numbers because they will change depending on what has been studied and how study has been concluded. But there is hundreds of studies done by subject and which politicians choose ones that seem to best support their views about matter. There are probably studies that support you view of things, so you can choose to believe them if you will, but when statics show that one gender in general gets less salary than other, then I would say that overtime, bonuses, work quotas, etc. etc. don't work as only explanation why it is so, but as I said salary differences don't necessary are results from employers actions/malice/prejudice/etc. but factors caused by general society (like women ask less pay, because of some factor,  men do overtime more because of some factor, men are perceived more qualified/better workers because of some factors, etc.).

 

But I will say that when statistics from source to source show that one gender gets paid less than other then I would say that there are some other factors in play than your typical work compensation factors alone, but I also think that most if not all of these other factors originate outside of employers. 

 

Here is EU's general report about subject, which references several studies about subject.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/files/gender_pay_gap/140319_gpg_en.pdf

Edited October 15, 2014 by Elerond

[Fighter]

So can anyone explain how stopping Gamergate will make the crazies go away?

[Shallow]

But even so, if you're a manager and you have a man and a woman applying for the same job, with the same credentials. You as the manager isn't going to hire the woman who gets paid less? You're the manager, you need to keep costs down. You would hire the woman for less pay.

 

You're forgetting maternity leave, and potential sexual harrassment suits.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So can anyone explain how stopping Gamergate will make the crazies go away?

Gaming journalists and SJWs will stop having their ethics questioned, therefore harassment will stop.

 

I suppose they could deflate gg by adopting an ethics policy, but apparently that takes too much effort away from poopflinging.

[Fighter]

And another day in irony:

 

 

 

[Ineth]

 

Damned good and convincing circumstantial evidence? Also yes: http://i.lightimg.com/34d0b14a.jpg

 

"Asshat" is also a favorite of mine.

 

OH MY GOD IT WAS ME ALL ALONG. ULTIMATE PROOFZ!4!!

 

 

Yeah the conspiracy theorizing about the death threats is pretty silly. Chances are that the psychopath who made the threads read lots of her tweets & writing (or how else would he have become mad at her?), and used her terminology "back" at her. Or, you know, coincidence.

 

I know it's hard to relate to how someone could make threats like that; or the terrorist threat against Sarkeesian's speech, that was even more horrible. Like, who does that? Lack of morals would not be enough, because in a country with law enforcement, committing a senseless crime like that really does not benefit them at all (nor their 'cause', whatever they think that may be), so I guess they'd have to be literally crazy too?

 

But difficulty to imagine it, should not be taken as an excuse to lazily (and conveniently) think it's not real, or dismiss its effects on the victims. Anyone who watches the news knows that there really are people like that; people who would also follow through on those threats.

 

[Hiro Protagonist]

You're forgetting maternity leave, and potential sexual harrassment suits.

 

Of course. How silly of me.

[Elerond]

 

It is not something that companies do intentionally out of malice, but that happens because of much more obscure factors, which is why fixing it is difficult and time consuming process. Especially when many of those factors originate from things in general social consensus and what kind views people have grown with.

 

For example companies often think that they treat men and women equally but their own statistics often show that women with same qualifications than men get offered smaller starting salary, which many women take as face value as they in anonymous inquiries about subject often value their time less than men, and often you can also find that men get more often and bigger raises than women, but it is also shown that women typically ask less and smaller raises than men. Where we come back to that point where I said that difference in salary isn't necessary because of malice/sexism/etc. from company but because of our societies views about subject and how we raise and educate our children and how our culture influences (like people not even believing in the subject or making light about subject) them. And it also should be remembered that people work 40-60 years of their life so salary statistics are still influenced by politics of 1940s and 1950s, which make subject even more complicate to analyse and to find solution (which all the members of society don't even want to do in the first place). 

 

 

But even so, if you're a manager and you have a man and a woman applying for the same job, with the same credentials. You as the manager isn't going to hire the woman who gets paid less? You're the manager, you need to keep costs down. You would hire the woman for less pay.

 

 

That is complicated question. If you as manager see man more qualified in job because of preconceived notions that you aren't even aware then you hire man, but if you don't have those notions and see them both as qualified to job you will hire the woman, who asked less pay because of some factors that make her to value her time less than that man.

 

Both options are things that happen in real life and because of first option I have gotten job instead of more qualified woman (at least on paper, who is my friend, which is reason why I know how much she asked and what her qualifications are compared to mine) even though I asked 600€ more per month.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

And another day in irony:

 

 

 

Jesus Tittyfcking Christ, the cognitive dissonance is astounding.

[TrashMan]

 

There are probably studies that support you view of things, so you can choose to believe them if you will, but when statics show that one gender in general gets less salary than other, then I would say that overtime, bonuses, work quotas, etc. etc. don't work as only explanation why it is so, but as I said salary differences don't necessary are results from employers actions/malice/prejudice/etc. but factors caused by general society (like women ask less pay, because of some factor,  men do overtime more because of some factor, men are perceived more qualified/better workers because of some factors, etc.)

 

 

 

I didn't say ONLY explanation. But it is an explanation and a valid one.

After all, men and women are different not only a physical level, but on a mental one too.

Maybe - just maybe - men are more willing to work extra hours or take on more tasks because they value money more, and women value their free time more? (in general)

 

Again, I don't know of a single instance of that salary mismatch. It certainly isn't the flaw of any laws or right women have, and if that's the case  and no one can pin down what's causing the difference, them whom are they complaining to?

[Ineth]

You can look them up by searching studies about salary differences. I will not quote any specific numbers because they will change depending on what has been studied and how study has been concluded. But there is hundreds of studies done by subject and which politicians choose ones that seem to best support their views about matter.

 

Yeah the studies which only consider one or two other factors, if any, in addition to gender, still find a "gender gap". Those are the ones that tend to get picked by lefty politicians. (Except for Barack Obama, who, even in 2014, still stubbornly uses the friggin' 77% figure which does not consider any other factors, just the average salaries of all male vs female full-time workers *facepalm*)

 

In studies which consider as many other factors as possible, however, the gap vanishes.

[BruceVC]

So can anyone explain how stopping Gamergate will make the crazies go away?

 

No the reason GG needs to shutdown is its utterly tainted. Its not going to achieve anything because of the extremist element that has hijacked its motives. Close it down and start some kind of group that can be regulated and raise the valid issues that you guys feel need to be raised

 

You cant expect people who are influential in the gaming industry to support it because of the rampant bigotry displayed by some of the members of GG

 

And no this doesn't mean I am saying you guys are bigots, I consider you moderate supporters of GG

Edited October 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[Ineth]

No the reason GG needs to shutdown is its utterly tainted.

 

You mean like feminism and Social Justice?

 

[Malcador]

Regulated by who, anyway ?

[Elerond]

 

 

There are probably studies that support you view of things, so you can choose to believe them if you will, but when statics show that one gender in general gets less salary than other, then I would say that overtime, bonuses, work quotas, etc. etc. don't work as only explanation why it is so, but as I said salary differences don't necessary are results from employers actions/malice/prejudice/etc. but factors caused by general society (like women ask less pay, because of some factor,  men do overtime more because of some factor, men are perceived more qualified/better workers because of some factors, etc.)

 

 

Maybe - just maybe - men are more willing to work extra hours or take on more tasks because they value money more, and women value their free time more? (in general)

 

And that is just one of those societal factors that I spoke, of course it is possible that male genetics make them more willing to do more overtime and female genetics make women value their free time more. But I would bet that such differences originate from differences how society see members of different genders and how they are raised and how culture in general perceives and influences them. So it is not simple issue that can be solved with ease, but more a issue that needs changes in society if people want it to be solved.