Graze gotta go, no?

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

I personally dislike the entire graze/DT idea. It is a terrible invention that forces constant attrition instead of being able to evade it via good gameplay. Just another way may be to feel make the encounters 'longer' I guess. 

 

Can some one actually put out a valid argument why they are a good thing? I would appreciate feedback from beta backers as to how they would feel about the removal of these two related features. 

^This times a thousand! I really dislike it now that I've been playing three different beta builds with it. It's just one big annoyance and it bereaves the game of all combat clarity and joy over a real hit or even a crit. I'd much rather have OE take a leaf or two from how turn-based WL2 does these things than some MMO-ish friction fest of procs and tics (sounds like illnesses and insects).

 

 

Not only does graze serve no real purpose. It's unrewarding and annoying too.

Finally, the darn thing spams our beloved combat log. Just look at this:

 

 

I don't think PoE has anything to win to keep it in. I've given it a go, and it actually worsens my experience with the game by quite a bit, so I say: Graze gotta go! Bye, Graze.

 

Hehe. It sounds like a name.

 

"Don't be sad now, Graze. But you really have to leave."

 

EDIT: I added a poll just for the heck of it.

Edited September 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[BlueLion]

It confuses the system whilst offering nothing. I agree, get rid.

[C2B]

I like the system.

[IndiraLightfoot]

The easiest thing would be to replace "grazes" with a good old "misses", but you could also replace with an implied zero damage combat log message like this: "Cowled dwarf blocked BB Wizard."

[BlueLion]

Alongside removing grazes, I feel we should remove minimum damage through armor. If your DT is too high you shouldn't take damage.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Alongside removing grazes, I feel we should remove minimum damage through armor. If your DT is too high you shouldn't take damage.

Agreed. Once again, the easiest solution to something is often the best, and in PoE we need as clear-cut combat info as possible with an entire party to manage.

[Nahnja]

I really don't understand the problem. It seems like a sound mechanic to me. Disregarding DT it makes damage increase through accuracy slope a lot nicer than with just having hits and misses.

 

Regarding the arguments put forward

 

 

 

I personally dislike the entire graze/DT idea. It is a terrible invention that forces constant attrition instead of being able to evade it via good gameplay. Just another way may be to feel make the encounters 'longer' I guess. 

 

I really don't get this one. Having misses instead of grazes based on deflection an accuracy makes for gameplay more reliant on skill? Assuming things were balanced nicely, I also don't get how encounters feel longer because of grazes. Instead of two grazed attacks you may have a hit and a miss (and more dt) in another system...

 

 

 

It's just one big annoyance and it bereaves the game of all combat clarity and joy over a real hit or even a crit

 

I get exited over crits. I mean they deal like 30 damage when grazes deal 0.7

 

 

 

Finally, the darn thing spams our beloved combat log.

 

And misses wouldn't?

[archangel979]

My guess would be that grazes exist so Health would go down faster during combat no matter if you get hit or grazed.

[Captain Shrek]

Indeed. Grazes are an attrition mechanism that do not make any sense whatsoever. 

[aeonsim]

I like the graze mechanic, it makes sense in that it provides a middle ground between a full hit and a miss.

It also allows for finer adjustments to your deflection/defence, it allows finer shifts in defence to have a noticeable effect the whole -50% damage or -50% duration is reasonable.

[wanderon]

Sounds like yet another "this is new it wasn't in the IE games thus it must be removed"

 

I think it's fine - leave it be.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Wanderon: That is unfair. Personally, I'm happy about many changes that are made in PoE. While I do like the IE-games, I'm no grognard in that sense. This is solely based on my assessment as someone that has played loads and loads of CRPGs, heck even made a few mods for them, and in my opinion the graze mechanic really doesn't contribute in any way to make the combat better or the gameplay flow smoother.

 

Also, I do appreciate aeonsim for giving a valid reason for why he likes the mechanic, though. However, I don't see the need for that middle-ground.

 

Once again - fun, system clarity, gameplay, and replayabilty are to me the real pillars of any good CRPG - and in this case, the graze mechanic puts a halt to that.

Edited September 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Rostere]

I think grazing is a great idea. I like heterogeneous and realistic systems anyway. Who cares about simplicity? This is not WoW.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Rostere: Sure, heterogenous and realistic can do well in computer games - heck, even stuff bordering on the esoteric (think EU or Crusader Kings). But most games actually do tend to simplify feedback when there are much stuff going on in real time. It's party-based combat vs several opponents we're talking about here, folks. Btw, I have never played WoW - so you just have to explain what makes a call for simplicity worthy of the tag "WoW".

Edited September 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Captain Shrek]

I have a simple question to ask all those who think Graze is a good idea: What happens if you remove the Graze mechanics? And the DT mechanics?

[wanderon]

It's my opinion that for the most part people are looking at these things with too narrow a focus - number one their opinions are based on playing (or sometimes just watching) a rough beta version designed primarily as a bug catcher -

 

For instance why would people complain about the lack of portraits in such a build - do they truly believe the current number even remotely represents the number that will be in the finished game or the number and style of options they will have to tweak them?

 

Secondly many of the complaints and calls to remove are seemingly based on what may be nothing more than annoyance with something that is done in a new manner that then may require some sort of learning curve to accommodate which of course is more difficult (and annoying) that having the same old comfy sweatshirt to pull on.

 

People almost never seem to take any sort of detailed examination of whatever it is they dislike they just announce their annoyance and demand it be removed and or replaced with some other system - which of course always worked just fine in BLANK (they rarely even ask for or speculate about any clarification on why the devs may have put the offending thing in the game to begin with)

 

It just seems to be - oh this is (silly, stupid, annoying, not needed, not like BLANK,) lets put up a poll and force them to remove it quickly.

 

Sorry the whole process just annoys me..

[IndiraLightfoot]

I have a simple question to ask all those who think Graze is a good idea: What happens if you remove the Graze mechanics? And the DT mechanics?

We have some answers so far:

-We get a less likable system /C2B)

-Possibly the loss of "a sound mechanic" (Nahnja)

-A middle ground between hit and miss disappears, and a lost opportunity to fine tune deflection/defence values (aeonsim)

-The game gets less heterogenic and realistic (Rostere)

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

It just seems to be - oh this is (silly, stupid, annoying, not needed, not like BLANK,) lets put up a poll and force them to remove it quickly.

 

Sorry the whole process just annoys me..

 

It can be atrocious at times, but let me ask you this:

Does Josh come across as a guy that just folds over when the pressure is on?

Personally, I reckon he's dealing with it perfectly. He takes his time, and he listens to those who have thoughtful points and opinions (which hopefully are based on plenty of experience and BB testing).

Edited September 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[prodigydancer]

I'm not a fan of graze mechanic to be honest. Reasons:

 

1) Attrition fights are always boring. Not only because they're long but also because they're predictable.

2) Always-hit-for-nonzero-damage combat systems lend to favor high HP/deflection but low accuracy parties. Especially if high accuracy is costly or otherwise hard to acquire.

3) Spamming combat log is bad.

 

When people complain about naked ranged characters, I agree. It's wrong and it exposes a poorly balanced combat system. But the opposite - a party of 6 heavily armored off-tanks relying on grazes and occasional crits - isn't any better. I wouldn't want to end up playing something like that.

Edited September 27, 2014 by prodigydancer

[aeonsim]

Also, I do appreciate aeonsim for giving a valid reason for why he likes the mechanic, though. However, I don't see the need for that middle-ground.

So part of your original complaint was that it spams the combat log, now if we replaced it with a 3 state system Crit, Hit, Miss like BG, then I think your combat log is going to look worse. You'll still have exactly the same number of lines except now depending on the exact Accuracy and defences involved in this case your log would be:

 

Hit, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Hit, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Hit, miss, miss, Crit ...

Or maybe:

Hit, miss, miss, hit, miss, miss, Hit, miss, miss, miss, miss, Hit, Hit, miss, miss, miss, Crit ...

 

That looks far worse to me than the grazes, with some if minimal damage. In this case (possibly due to a bug) you were simply trying to hit some one who's defence was too high rather than a problem with the mechanism, and in BG it's likely most of those grazes would have turned into a miss and been completely wasted.

Edited September 27, 2014 by aeonsim

[Rostere]

Rostere: Sure, heterogenous and realistic can do well in computer games - heck, even stuff bordering on the esoteric (think EU or Crusader Kings). But most games actually do tend to simplify feedback when there are much stuff going on in real time. It's party-based combat vs several opponents we're talking about here, folks. Btw, I have never played WoW - so you just have to explain what makes a call for simplicity worthy of the tag "WoW".

 

As long as the concept is properly explained at some point (for example, in a neat-looking manual) I don't think there is a problem. You don't have to find out what a "graze" is with no prior knowledge every time you graze an opponent in combat. In my mind, grazes gives the combat more variation and character. Personally, I'd rather have critical misses like in Arcanum, but you can't have everything.

 

Ideally, you would also have creatures which are easy to graze, with only a small window for a critical hit (high defense?), representing something big and tough with a small weak point. The problem with simplistic RPGs is that different creatures are just the same ****, but with more HP, and dealing more damage. There is no rock/paper/scissors thinking in this system, just more DPS or less DPS. The current system with both grazes (dependent on accuracy/defense), interrupts, damage type, DT, DR, minimum damage and penetration allows for much more realistic modeling. It will be harder to balance but when it is balanced, it will be so much more rewarding to play. I'd rather Obsidian released a flawed diamond whose balance can be perfected by mods/patches than a piece of simplistic turd which leaves modders thinking they would be just as well off making their own game from the start.

[Osvir]

Combat log feedback options = Show Graze Hits On/Off

[prodigydancer]

Hit, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Hit, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Hit, miss, miss, Crit ...

Misses are sometimes frustrating. Attrition is always boring.

 

Take your pick.

Edited September 27, 2014 by prodigydancer

[IndiraLightfoot]

 Personally, I'd rather have critical misses like in Arcanum, but you can't have everything.

 

 

 

You and me both!

 

Btw, that's why I like WL2, where it is indeed in.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Hit, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Hit, miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Hit, miss, miss, Crit ...

Misses are sometimes frustrating. Attrition is always boring.

 

Take your pick.

 

Yes. This is the crux of it. I'd prefer the former any day.