New build feedback

[PrimeJunta]

I honestly don't get the hostility to bestiary XP.

 

It makes a lot more intuitive sense than kill XP (XP is supposed to, at some level, represent learning, and bestiary XP makes that connection more concrete; it also doesn't make sense that you can keep learning more, and always the same amount, by killing more and more of the same kind of critter), it's much easier to manage for the game designers since they won't need to watch out and compensate for XP hotspots like spawn points and they can easily tally up the total available XP at any stage in the game, and it gives a feeling of continuous progression that's IMO the best thing about kill XP (and something I find myself missing in the BB).

 

I.e., from where I'm at it has all the benefits of kill XP with almost none of the drawbacks.

 

If anyone would care to enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

Edited October 11, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Karkarov]

So you are saying they figured out they made a mistake and now they are making pathetic concessions instead of fixing it or staying true to their original vision?

 

Going middle of the road is bull****. Either bring back kill xp or don't have half way solutions like bestiary xp

No he is saying they see some peoples points and want to put things in game to make the exp gain more consistent and less "I turned in a quest BOOOM EXP!!!" while also giving something to the people who do go out of their way to participate in lots and lots of combat that might be optional.  AKA: Bestiary EXP.

 

It isn't a "half measure" or some banal attempt at appeasement.  It is their way of addressing the exp economy in game to be a little more balanced and fair to the player.

 

Also what the heck does Skyrim have to do with Objective EXP?  There is no EXP for completing objectives in skyrim (unless you mod it in), but if you go kill 5001 bandits with a long sword I bet you got a boatload of advancement on your armor/weapon skills.

[archangel979]

I honestly don't get the hostility to bestiary XP.

 

It makes a lot more intuitive sense than kill XP (XP is supposed to, at some level, represent learning, and bestiary XP makes that connection more concrete; it also doesn't make sense that you can keep learning more, and always the same amount, by killing more and more of the same kind of critter), it's much easier to manage for the game designers since they won't need to watch out and compensate for XP hotspots like spawn points and they can easily tally up the total available XP at any stage in the game, and it gives a feeling of continuous progression that's IMO the best thing about kill XP (and something I find myself missing in the BB).

 

I.e., from where I'm at it has all the benefits of kill XP with almost none of the drawbacks.

 

If anyone would care to enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

You can always learn something more from a death and life situation and it was not always the same. At lvl 1 you need to kill 10 such creatures to level, at lvl 10 you needed 1000, at lvl 20 you needed 50 000. As long as XP for next level rises exponentially enemies can keep giving same XP. There is a limited amount of enemies in the game afterall.

[Elerond]

So you are saying they figured out they made a mistake and now they are making pathetic concessions instead of fixing it or staying true to their original vision?

 

Going middle of the road is bull****. Either bring back kill xp or don't have half way solutions like bestiary xp

 

No I say that they decided to try cater people that weren't happy with their original decision, but same time they try to be true for their original vision of the game. I would point out that their original vision about xp system was

 

Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.

 

Their decision to uses xp system where you gain xp by accomplishing objectives that are tied to quests accomplish this design goal perfectly and don't cause problems to any other design goals that Obsidian had, but some of their backers, people that funded the game and therefore have opinion and feelings that Obsidian pays heed for as company that wants to please those that make it possible that they can make this game, expressed that they want to get xp more regularly than what the original system gave and they also expressed notion that there should be systemic xp gain like in IE games. But as limitless systemic xp gain would compromise their original vision they have come up with compromise that they think allows them to keep their original vision and same time give those backers that ask more regular and systemic xp something that resembles what they asked for.

 

This kind changes to original design is quite typical in game development as publisher often ask changes in the games so that they can sell them better, this time changes are demanded by people that funded game in kickstater, many who claimed that it is time to give developers option to develop games that they want to develop and not compromise them by demands of those publishers, but as we can see nothing has fundamentally changed, as developers are bound to demands of those who fund their games. 

[archangel979]

 

So you are saying they figured out they made a mistake and now they are making pathetic concessions instead of fixing it or staying true to their original vision?

 

Going middle of the road is bull****. Either bring back kill xp or don't have half way solutions like bestiary xp

No he is saying they see some peoples points and want to put things in game to make the exp gain more consistent and less "I turned in a quest BOOOM EXP!!!" while also giving something to the people who do go out of their way to participate in lots and lots of combat that might be optional.  AKA: Bestiary EXP.

 

It isn't a "half measure" or some banal attempt at appeasement.  It is their way of addressing the exp economy in game to be a little more balanced and fair to the player.

 

Also what the heck does Skyrim have to do with Objective EXP?  There is no EXP for completing objectives in skyrim (unless you mod it in), but if you go kill 5001 bandits with a long sword I bet you got a boatload of advancement on your armor/weapon skills.

 

I don't have a problem with Xp coming from different sources and in smaller amount and I also wanted that.

 

I don't believe Bestiary XP has anything to do with XP economy, it is pure appeasement of combat XP crowd that is much bigger then it seems by these forums (non IE games lovers also play RPGs and get combat XP in games and OE wants those to buy the game as well). And I still consider it a half measure which will bring same problems after people exhaust Bestiary XP per creature.

 

Only real solution is to enable full combat XP but have so much XP by endgame so everyone is at max lvl but they choose the way they got there (more questing or more killing). Also the IE system of comparing party level to encounter and adding more stronger enemies to the mix worked well.

Those games let you carve your own path through the content with little restrictions and it still felt challenging without the feeling of everything leveling to your level like Oblivion had.

 

As for Skyrim, it was not a comment about XP but about the anti combat xp crowd being much smaller than people think, about the same as Skyrim haters. I took Skyrim as example because it is a popular game to hate among classic games fans (I could have said Fallout 3 but a fantasy game fit better and it is more recent then Oblivion which could also be a good example).

Edited October 11, 2014 by archangel979

[archangel979]

 

So you are saying they figured out they made a mistake and now they are making pathetic concessions instead of fixing it or staying true to their original vision?

 

Going middle of the road is bull****. Either bring back kill xp or don't have half way solutions like bestiary xp

 

No I say that they decided to try cater people that weren't happy with their original decision, but same time they try to be true for their original vision of the game. I would point out that their original vision about xp system was

 

Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.

 

Their decision to uses xp system where you gain xp by accomplishing objectives that are tied to quests accomplish this design goal perfectly and don't cause problems to any other design goals that Obsidian had, but some of their backers, people that funded the game and therefore have opinion and feelings that Obsidian pays heed for as company that wants to please those that make it possible that they can make this game, expressed that they want to get xp more regularly than what the original system gave and they also expressed notion that there should be systemic xp gain like in IE games. But as limitless systemic xp gain would compromise their original vision they have come up with compromise that they think allows them to keep their original vision and same time give those backers that ask more regular and systemic xp something that resembles what they asked for.

 

This kind changes to original design is quite typical in game development as publisher often ask changes in the games so that they can sell them better, this time changes are demanded by people that funded game in kickstater, many who claimed that it is time to give developers option to develop games that they want to develop and not compromise them by demands of those publishers, but as we can see nothing has fundamentally changed, as developers are bound to demands of those who fund their games.

 

And it still does not change the fact that it is a half measure that does not really fix anything. It will just mean people will be avoiding combat in second part of the game.

 

There is nothing wrong in letting people get full kill xp except for those that are part of quest. It solves the problem of people doing quests and then killing quest givers or others that are part of quest xp already.

Edited October 11, 2014 by archangel979

[Elerond]

 

 

So you are saying they figured out they made a mistake and now they are making pathetic concessions instead of fixing it or staying true to their original vision?

 

Going middle of the road is bull****. Either bring back kill xp or don't have half way solutions like bestiary xp

 

No I say that they decided to try cater people that weren't happy with their original decision, but same time they try to be true for their original vision of the game. I would point out that their original vision about xp system was

 

Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.

 

Their decision to uses xp system where you gain xp by accomplishing objectives that are tied to quests accomplish this design goal perfectly and don't cause problems to any other design goals that Obsidian had, but some of their backers, people that funded the game and therefore have opinion and feelings that Obsidian pays heed for as company that wants to please those that make it possible that they can make this game, expressed that they want to get xp more regularly than what the original system gave and they also expressed notion that there should be systemic xp gain like in IE games. But as limitless systemic xp gain would compromise their original vision they have come up with compromise that they think allows them to keep their original vision and same time give those backers that ask more regular and systemic xp something that resembles what they asked for.

 

This kind changes to original design is quite typical in game development as publisher often ask changes in the games so that they can sell them better, this time changes are demanded by people that funded game in kickstater, many who claimed that it is time to give developers option to develop games that they want to develop and not compromise them by demands of those publishers, but as we can see nothing has fundamentally changed, as developers are bound to demands of those who fund their games.

 

And it still does not change the fact that it is a half measure that does not really fix anything. It will just mean people will be avoiding combat in second part of the game.

 

There is nothing wrong in letting people get full kill xp except for those that are part of quest. It solves the problem of people doing quests and then killing quest givers or others that are part of quest xp already.

 

 

Players already get full kill xp when they kill people/creatures that are part of the quests. Problem that people have with game has been that you don't get xp from killing creatures that aren't part of some quest, which is what Obsidian tries to solve by adding bestiary XP.

 

And you for some reason assume that player is able to kill creatures in first part of the game in such extend that they don't get bestiary xp in second part of the game. I think this is bit silly presumption as every different type of creature has their own bestiary and typically in game like PoE there will be more difficult versions of creatures and new type of creatures in second part of the game that all have their own bestiaries to be fulfilled.

 

Problem that I see with bestiary xp is that it can compromise Obsidian's original design goal (which was that Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain.)  which I think they try to solve by using shared xp pools (maybe) with exploration and lock-picking/traps xp.

[Elerond]

 

Only real solution is to enable full combat XP but have so much XP by endgame so everyone is at max lvl but they choose the way they got there (more questing or more killing). Also the IE system of comparing party level to encounter and adding more stronger enemies to the mix worked well.

Those games let you carve your own path through the content with little restrictions and it still felt challenging without the feeling of everything leveling to your level like Oblivion had.

 

 

 

That don't work with Obsidian's design goal with xp system.  Total amount of awarded xp was not the problem that Obsidian had, but speed that which each play-style produces the XP. Obsidian wants that each play style produces xp in same speed regardless on how player decided to solve things. 

[JFSOCC]

So you are saying they figured out they made a mistake and now they are making pathetic concessions instead of fixing it or staying true to their original vision?

 

Going middle of the road is bull****. Either bring back kill xp or don't have half way solutions like bestiary xp

I'm not a great fan of the decision myself to add bestiary/skillcheck xp, but I am in favour of rebalancing the given experience so that players get them more incrementally than was previously the case. Finding the right pacing for character progression is a challenge, but I think Obsidian will manage to find the sweet spot.

[curryinahurry]

^ Obsidian isn't veering away from their core vision about the XP system...they are doing 2 things to address concerns; one is to make the XP system for quests a bit more granular so that players feel like they are getting rewards in more regular intervals.  the other is to provide a pool of xp for actions not related strictly to the completion of quests.  This includes the dreaded bestiary and lock xp give-aways.  

 

 

The first action is probably a fairly simple adjustment.  The second is basically a pool of XP that they will skim off the top of their quest xp system as a way to accommodate people who want more positive reinforcement in their gaming experience.  This second pool of xp is easily reconciled because Obz set up their initial system to be coherent....if they know the total amount of xp available in the game, it becomes very easy to peel of a bit of largess.  This continues to be an affirmation of why they chose a quest xp type system for PoE

 

Do I agree with the bestiary, etc.?  No, I think its a silly giveaway...but if it gets some people who are crying for combat xp to shut up and stop clogging up the forums with their whinging; I can get behind it.

[lordkim]

I need to know..

 

What the hell did you do before you came in to this forum Sensuki ?

Seems you got a lot of knowledge of these sort of games

[Cantousent]

From my perspective, the bestiary compromise worked.  There was a flurry of responses after Sawyer announced it.  Those died down.  The sheer number of people doggedly pushing the issue diminished.  Probably because some were happy to have something akin to the kill XP they desired and others decided to accept it.  There have been a couple threads since then, but the level of vitriol has ebbed.  Even Immortalis' thread hasn't been really contentious about quest only XP.  It has a few weak flames, but mostly it's seemed to be a measured discussion.

 

...And you, my angelic friend, God bless you, are willing to keep up the battle on the issue, and that's just part of your charm.

 

I would like to say something about the argument that bestiary XP is in fact kill XP.  First of all, the only people I've seen make that argument so far are people who continue that argument by saying, "and since the bestiary is actually kill XP, they should just get rid of the bestiary and give kill XP."  The bestiary is not the equivalent of kill XP.  It is objective XP in which the objective can only be completed by combat.  Note, there will be any number of times in the game where combat will be necessary to complete an objective.  In this case, the objective is more clearly tied to the means (combat), but it's no different than the fact that combat is necessary to complete the ogre quest, even if you don't complete the last step of the ogre quest by engaging in combat with the actual ogre.

 

For my part, I have *always* said that I don't mind combat granting XP through specific objectives tied to it.  My preference would be to have some objective XP tied to any number of skills and some to combat.  I think the bestiary is a little on the nose, probably because it was the only way to placate some folks, but I don't mind the principle, just the heavy handed way of doing it.  If they come out with an objective (quest) that can only be completed with lock-picking, I would be perfectly happy.  I would hope it wouldn't be a lockiary, but the point is, it's a small quantifiable reward.  Go for it.  Put in a quest that can only be completed by some quick talking.  Once again, the dialogueary would sound stupid, but you get the point.  I don't mind folks getting XP at certain points exclusively through any means, including combat.  I don't want folks to get XP simply by attacking a creature, killing it, and seeing a number floating over the characters' heads.

 

...And, if they were smart, since the bestiary is actually a dumb way to filter it out at the end, allow other means to fill at least some of the bestiary entries.  Tie some of the entries to lore and some to dialogue, etc.  ...And *then* still put in some quest that requires combat to complete.

[PrimeJunta]

You can always learn something more from a death and life situation and it was not always the same. At lvl 1 you need to kill 10 such creatures to level, at lvl 10 you needed 1000, at lvl 20 you needed 50 000. As long as XP for next level rises exponentially enemies can keep giving same XP. There is a limited amount of enemies in the game afterall.

 

That doesn't explain why you hate bestiary XP. It just explains what kind of XP system you'd like even more.

 

I still don't get it, other than from a purely emotional POV (you're upset at not getting exactly the XP system you want, and you feel they're patronizing you with a "half-measure"). Is that it?

[Lord Vicious]

 

Yes but when i kill a Pearson i want hes exact stuff. why cant i get the armor the gourds have? That's HAS to be changed.   But the inventory is going to right way. - makes me very happy BUT why cant i drop items on the ground?? i can magically carry as much stuff as a want? but i cant drop things on the ground??

Someone over at the codex said that they're not implementing dropping items on the ground because (a) it makes the save/reload system much harder to implement and (b) it's not needed anyway because you can drop everything into the stash.

 

I am sorry, what? All Infinity engine games and the Fallout games could do this 15 years ago, yet now "it makes the save/reload system much harder to implement"? This is crazy! Yet another sign of how this game doesn't manage to live up to the great RPGs of old.

 

And furthermore, dropping items on the ground doesn't have anything to do with getting all the gear from the NPCs you kill. The loot can go straight to your inventory if the engine can't handle item drops. This is just a weak excuse for robbing players of their loot, which in turn is a lame cover-up of inability to balance the game properly.  

[Lord Vicious]

For my part, I have *always* said that I don't mind combat granting XP through specific objectives tied to it.  

 

 

 

Killing an opponent is a very specific "objective".

 

Killing any opponent is bound to give you *some* experience (mostly depending on the difficulty of the fight).

 

I absolutely do not understand this bias against "kill XP". If it's what many players want, why not give it to them? How would it lessen game enjoyment for other players? This is like arguing against loot drops (which is also something I absolutely cannot comprehend).

 

The only explanation coming into my mind is, ironically, the same that explains the "no bad builds" concept and the oversall diminishing effect of player strategies on game outcome (like decreasing stat importance etc.).

 

That explanation is as follows:

 

The developers are in fact catering to the "lowest common denominator" and are making the game more casual.

 

By decreasing the effect of player actions (such as build strategies or getting bonuses from winning fights) they are making the game "streamlined" so that a "good" player does not enjoy significant advantages for playing the game better than "mediocre" or even "bad".

 

Hopefully, this is not the case and we will get a game where our actions do matter, and not just a rollercoaster from point A to point Z that is the same for everyone.

 

Edited October 11, 2014 by Lord Vicious

[Guest 4ward]

What is the bestiary though? Is it e.g.any lion or is it an elder Lion? I take it it's always the 'boss' versions?

[Cantousent]

To make a simplified explanation that uses a common sort of quest, the warehouse is beset by poisonous spiders.  You can't negotiate and sneaking around doesn't resolve the issue.  The only method to resolve the issue with any satisfaction is to destroy the spiders.  The design team could do much more with the simple idea that negotiation and stealth might not always be an option.  They aren't always an option in real life.  There should be some objectives that *require* negotiation.  No other method might resolve the issue to any real satisfaction.

 

I think Elrond used the term systemic up above.  When XP is doled out systemically for combat, then it incentivizes players to use a combat resolution.  It makes it one of the preferred methods of playing.  ...But folks who like combat will already gravitate towards that solution.  There isn't any need to provide further incentive for such players.  You want to be a bad-ass because that's how you roll?  Fair enough.  Now you can claim that the reason your PC is murderous is entirely because that's how you see him, not because you'll get a little extra by doing it.  Removing kill XP doesn't prevent people from enjoying anything the game provides.  It just doesn't reward them for playing a certain way.  I don't think it should.

 

Maybe I feel that way because I'm a 'casual gamer,' whatever that is.  *shrug*

[molloy]

First I have to admit that I had (and have) my doubts about the no-kill-xp strategy, but still have settled now for trying it out.

 

Doing creative work is not about giving people what they want, it's about developing new ideas. People want what they know and what they're used to. If only these needs are satisfied nothing new will ever happen and we will never know if maybe one of these new ideas is actually an improvement.

[Headbomb]

The level of entrenchment here is ridiculous. Bestiary XP is an excellent addition, and rewards combat (and hopefully include non-combat ways to fill the bestiary such as lore books on beasts and creatures) without rewarding degenerate play styles. And it makes perfect sense that after you kill 50 rats (or however much), you know all there is to know about rest killing.

[Headbomb]

Lock/Trap XP however... To hell with that. I shouldn't be penalized for not having a rogue in my party beyond the extra damage and less loot.

[Doppelschwert]

What is the bestiary though? Is it e.g.any lion or is it an elder Lion? I take it it's always the 'boss' versions?

 

The way your question is worded sounds like english is not your first language and you don't know the word 'bestiary'. If this is the case, a bestiary is usually a book about animals with various data about them. In the context of games, a bestiary is almost always a collection of data about enemies you encountered in the game, often with stats and information about them.

In PoE, the bestiary contains the stats of all enemies that are not humanoid and you fill in additional information about their stats by killing the enemies. The speed is governed by the lore skill and bestiary exp means that you are awarded for filling in information about enemies by killing enough of them. The point is that the entry for a specific enemy is complete filled out long before you have killed all the enemies of that type, so you only get rewarded with exp for the first couple slain enemies of a type.

 

If an enemy has a boss version, it would have a different entry in the the bestiary as it is probably considered a different species. Because humanoids are not in the bestiary, it won't be blown up by the sheer amount of custom NPC adversaries with different stats / gear, and it won't give an incentive to kill them during quests for the bestiary exp.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Doppelschwert

[Hormalakh]

I honestly don't get the hostility to bestiary XP.

 

It makes a lot more intuitive sense than kill XP (XP is supposed to, at some level, represent learning, and bestiary XP makes that connection more concrete; it also doesn't make sense that you can keep learning more, and always the same amount, by killing more and more of the same kind of critter), it's much easier to manage for the game designers since they won't need to watch out and compensate for XP hotspots like spawn points and they can easily tally up the total available XP at any stage in the game, and it gives a feeling of continuous progression that's IMO the best thing about kill XP (and something I find myself missing in the BB).

 

I.e., from where I'm at it has all the benefits of kill XP with almost none of the drawbacks.

 

If anyone would care to enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

 

No, unbelievably, I found something I agree with when it comes to the combat-xp fans: stick to your guns, Josh. If you say XP comes from completing an objective, then leave it at that.

 

This is the "crafting skill" fiasco all over again. Lore is a worthless skill in combat and has no value when meta-gaming is considered and so now it is being "remedied" by offering some sort of value by giving trivial amounts of XP.

 

It goes against the whole idea of you get XP only for completing objectives. It further minimalizes players who want to have a mostly "kill-free" gaming experience. And ultimately flies in the face of the main reason why combat XP was taken out.

 

If we have trap xp, lore xp, etc, why not have combat xp?

 

Stick to your guns, devs. You said there'd be no XP outside of objectives. Keep it that way.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Filling out the bestiary is obviously an objective.

[Hormalakh]

Filling out the bestiary is obviously an objective.

 

"Gotta fill out my Pokedex!"

 

OR

 

"Listen adventurer I've got a list of things I need you to kill for me: here it is. 500 golbins, 300 trolls, 20 dragons, 10 giants ... Oh if you invest in some skill that's otherwise worthless, I'll give you a discount on your kill list."

Edited October 11, 2014 by Hormalakh

[Doppelschwert]

This is the "crafting skill" fiasco all over again. Lore is a worthless skill in combat and has no value when meta-gaming is considered and so now it is being "remedied" by offering some sort of value by giving trivial amounts of XP.

 

It goes against the whole idea of you get XP only for completing objectives. It further minimalizes players who want to have a mostly "kill-free" gaming experience. And ultimately flies in the face of the main reason why combat XP was taken out.

 

If we have trap xp, lore xp, etc, why not have combat xp?

 

Stick to your guns, devs. You said there'd be no XP outside of objectives. Keep it that way.

 

 

So you basically say that they shouldn't be able to change their decisions based on feedback, regardless of how bad that decision turned out in regards to how fun the game is to play?

I'm sure the decision with bestiary exp is not only because of the vocal minority of backers here on the forums but also because of the playtests they are doing at the moment.

 

Also, lore is not a worthless skill in combat. It changes the rate at which you uncover information about your enemies, and information is crucial for tactics. The addition of bestiary exp is not changing the value of the lore skill, as you can get all the bestiary entries and exp even with minimal lore. Lore decrease the number of fights you need to fill in the bestiary entries, which means that you may get access to information about the enemy during the very first fight you actually have with them (fight 3 lions, one falls, get additional information about the remaining 2).

 

Is it useless if you have a walkthrough? Yeah it is, but a game should not be designed with a walkthrough in mind, and if you use one to neglect lore, then it's really your own decision and not the games fault, at least IMHO.

 

In particular, if you want to be peacefully as possible, max the lore skill and you reap the benefits during the first couple fights. If you want to get rewarded for your battles for a longer period of time, neglect the lore skill.