The Beginning of the End of ISIS?

[Namutree]

Things are way more complicated than whats meets the eye here, regarding your question though, it doesn't look like Isis are going anywhere any time soon. There have too many sunnis-ISIS supporters who consider the average American, Europan and all christians for that matter to be infidels, for Isis supporters, atheists are even worse.

Don't be surprised when that doesn't save them. I suppose they'll still exist in the future, but they'll be a shadow of what they are now; considering they aren't much even now it'll be quite pathetic. 

[Namutree]

Also Israel involved in this, IDF constantly support ISIS by airstrikes during Syrian civil war, probably they are true masters while US only play role of puppets (Hodor!). Also Britts very tied with these medieval Arabic monarchies who also backed ISIS. In Summ US, Israel, UK, Turkey stay behind created by ISIS crysis.

 

 

 

 

 

Three things:

 

A) While helping Syrian rebel certainly did benefit ISIS; that wasn't the intention of Israel or the US. It was another unintended consequence of our idiotic interventionist attitude.

 

B) The US is no one's puppet. We are however, bleeding heart fools who seem to have forgotten how to mind our own business; this tends to be a problem as we don't always even understand the situations we get ourselves into. Iraq is a good example of how pathetic our understanding of a situation can be.

 

C) Israel is hardly to blame for ISIS. America is very much at fault however. Starting with our aid to al-Qaeda when they were fighting the USSR in Afghanistan. Followed by our hapless invasion of Iraq. Finally, we gave aid to a bunch of radicals we knew nothing about in their fight against a brutal but secular Assad.

 

Ladies and gentlemen: America's brilliant foreign policy.

[Malcador]

Have to wonder how Iraq would have played out with the 3-400K amount alternatively suggested. As for this, well don't get your hopes up, guncam footage will make for good PR but ISIS is going to still be ongoing.

[BruceVC]

 

Also Israel involved in this, IDF constantly support ISIS by airstrikes during Syrian civil war, probably they are true masters while US only play role of puppets (Hodor!). Also Britts very tied with these medieval Arabic monarchies who also backed ISIS. In Summ US, Israel, UK, Turkey stay behind created by ISIS crysis.

 

 

 

 

 

Three things:

 

A) While helping Syrian rebel certainly did benefit ISIS; that wasn't the intention of Israel or the US. It was another unintended consequence of our idiotic interventionist attitude.

 

B) The US is no one's puppet. We are however, bleeding heart fools who seem to have forgotten how to mind our own business; this tends to be a problem as we don't always even understand the situations we get ourselves into. Iraq is a good example of how pathetic our understanding of a situation can be.

 

C) Israel is hardly to blame for ISIS. America is very much at fault however. Starting with our aid to al-Qaeda when they were fighting the USSR in Afghanistan. Followed by our hapless invasion of Iraq. Finally, we gave aid to a bunch of radicals we knew nothing about in their fight against a brutal but secular Assad.

 

Ladies and gentlemen: America's brilliant foreign policy.

 

 

Some good points raised, a couple of considerations

 

• ISIS in its current  structure is the due to the prolonged civil war in Syria and the fact that when the USA left Iraq Al-Maliki didn't incorporate the Sunnis in the new government. I'm  not sure why you feel the USA is responsible for either of these? In fact as I've often said if the USA and its allies hadn't be vetoed in the UNSC by Russia and China  they would have intervened in Syria years ago, like Libya, and ISIS wouldn't even exist. Remember Syria is there homeland and "birthplace" in there current form  and they only exist because Assad has been incapable of dealing with them so they become stronger as more people flocked to there cause

 

• America never aided Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, they helped the Mujahideen who were fighting the occupation by the USSR. No one knew that Al-Qaeda would evolve eventually  from some of  the Mujahideen fighters  and also remember that the Cold War was on going at the time and the greater evil was always Communism. There were various proxy wars fought between the USA and USSR and sometimes from the assistance that both powers provided there were unforeseen consequences that came to effect years later. That's why the USA basically ignored Apartheid for so long because South Africa was staunchly opposed to Communism

[obyknven]

 

In fact as I've often said if the USA and its allies hadn't be vetoed in the UNSC by Russia and China  they would have intervened in Syria years ago, like Libya, and ISIS wouldn't even exist.

 

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/state-department-libya-has-become-terrorist-safe-haven

 

State Department: 'Libya Has Become a Terrorist Safe Haven'

 

The State Department's latest report on global terrorism, released Wednesday, lists Libya as a terrorist safe-haven for the second year in a row.

 

"With a weak government possessing very few tools to exert control throughout its territory, Libya has become a terrorist safe haven and its transit routes are used by various terrorist groups, notably in the southwest and northeast," says the 2013 Country Reports on Terrorism, released on Wednesday, April 30.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/24/libya-capital-under-islamist-control-tripoli-airport-seized-operation-dawn

Libyan capital under Islamist control after Tripoli airport seized

Operation Dawn captures airport in fierce fighting against pro-government militias after five-week siege in the capital

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/26/officials-egypt-uae-behind-airstrikes-in-libya/14621449/

 

 Egypt and the United Arab Emirates secretly carried out airstrikes against Islamist militias inside Libya, U.S. officials said Tuesday, decrying the intervention as an escalation of the North African country's already debilitating turmoil

 

In a joint statement, the United States joined with Britain, France, Germany and Italy in expressing its concerns, saying ""outside interference in Libya exacerbates current divisions and undermines Libya's democratic transition."

A U.S. official said the intervention wasn't done with authorization from Libya's government.

 

[Namutree]

 

 

 

 

Three things:

 

A) While helping Syrian rebel certainly did benefit ISIS; that wasn't the intention of Israel or the US. It was another unintended consequence of our idiotic interventionist attitude.

 

B) The US is no one's puppet. We are however, bleeding heart fools who seem to have forgotten how to mind our own business; this tends to be a problem as we don't always even understand the situations we get ourselves into. Iraq is a good example of how pathetic our understanding of a situation can be.

 

C) Israel is hardly to blame for ISIS. America is very much at fault however. Starting with our aid to al-Qaeda when they were fighting the USSR in Afghanistan. Followed by our hapless invasion of Iraq. Finally, we gave aid to a bunch of radicals we knew nothing about in their fight against a brutal but secular Assad.

 

Ladies and gentlemen: America's brilliant foreign policy.

 

 

Some good points raised, a couple of considerations

 

• ISIS in its current  structure is the due to the prolonged civil war in Syria and the fact that when the USA left Iraq Al-Maliki didn't incorporate the Sunnis in the new government. I'm  not sure why you feel the USA is responsible for either of these? In fact as I've often said if the USA and its allies hadn't be vetoed in the UNSC by Russia and China  they would have intervened in Syria years ago, like Libya, and ISIS wouldn't even exist. Remember Syria is there homeland and "birthplace" in there current form  and they only exist because Assad has been incapable of dealing with them so they become stronger as more people flocked to there cause

 

• America never aided Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, they helped the Mujahideen who were fighting the occupation by the USSR. No one knew that Al-Qaeda would evolve eventually  from some of  the Mujahideen fighters  and also remember that the Cold War was on going at the time and the greater evil was always Communism. There were various proxy wars fought between the USA and USSR and sometimes from the assistance that both powers provided there were unforeseen consequences that came to effect years later. That's why the USA basically ignored Apartheid for so long because South Africa was staunchly opposed to Communism

 

Al-Maliki's style of governing is no surprise at all, and the infighting between sunni's and shia's was more than a little predictable. The USA didn't bother to understand the culture and ideology of Iraq before haphazardly deciding to invade it. Yes, America is responsible for what is happening in Iraq. We destabilized it, and we left it in the hands of incompetent sectarian fools.

 

ISIS exits because the secular tyrants have been toppled by islamists thanks to the help of naive westerners who think that secular democracy is just around the corner. All our intervening has done is create monsters, sow chaos, and weaken our economy.

 

Don't even get me started on the cold war.

[Namutree]

 

 

 

http://youtu.be/5EiJOkcONpM

 

Please tell me you don't believe this obyknven. It is so wrong it's almost beyond belief.

 

"Jews created communism to destroy Russia." BS. Communism wasn't invented by jews. It was created by a single man, and he didn't create it to destroy Russia.

 

"Russians were winning the war, but the jews didn't want to give up Constantinople. So they started the Bolshevik revolution." Also complete BS.

 

After that I just quit watching. If that's what you believe oby; you're beyond hopeless. The dolt in this video is just a racist without even the most basic grasp on history.

[Shallow]

The US is responsible for a prolonged Syrian conflict because they trained ISIS and the other rebels. And as for Iraq, let's see here, removed a dictator who had strong control over his country because we didn't like his oil policies... then we didn't partition Iraq in the logical way, split it into a Sunni north, a Shia south, and a tiny portion of Kurdistan northeast, get everyone a second amendment so civilians have a chance at defending themselves from random idiots and the government if it decides to go all Saddam Hussainy on some minorities, then finally ensure all those states are properly decentralized. This would give the army reason to not just abandon their post, the civilians reason to resist, but it'd also mean the people bribing the US government would have to make deals with the locals, who would feel the effects of such deals, and it'd mean we'd have stable states, and we'd have less influence as our constant support wouldn't be needed. Libya is such a great example of a thing that worked, there isn't missing weaponry that probably didn't at all spill into other conflicts, there isn't a dead US ambassador, things aren't going to **** and decending back into chaos, Libya went great!

 

The lower portion of your post presents why America style foreign policy is so terrible and needs to end. Just because the "greater evil" is Communism doesn't mean it's okay to act the way we did, the ends don't justify the means, at least not when the means are far worse than how they may have improved the end is good, all our funding of dictators and physchos resulted in was dead civilians, screwed over countries, and people in areas like South America, who'd probably benifit from communism being badly exploited, the only good thing we did during the timeframe was join the Korean war, everything else is pretty disgusting.

 

Generally the Arab Spring was a failure, the only places that have improved were places that kept their initial leaders in power, gave out some liberties, and then outlasted the protests. Egypt, the best result besides that, exchanged a moderate dictator forcing people to coexist, with islamic extremists democratically elected, with a new more powermad dictator who doesn't care much about protecting minorities, or any kind of freedom that he feels could threaten him.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Shallow

[Erez]

 

 

Also Israel involved in this, IDF constantly support ISIS by airstrikes during Syrian civil war, probably they are true masters while US only play role of puppets (Hodor!). Also Britts very tied with these medieval Arabic monarchies who also backed ISIS. In Summ US, Israel, UK, Turkey stay behind created by ISIS crysis.

 

Just like you advocate the destruction of earth by living right?

 

Do you think the criticism of Israel cause destruction of Earth?

 

No, but saying Israel are behind the slaughter of isis-hezbollah-assad for shooting back when its being shot at, or stopping its enemy a world recognized terror organization(hezbollah) from receiving extra missile deliveries is like saying you are responsible for global warming for emitting carbon into earth atmosphere on a daily basis just for being here, and thats is even before going to all the plants-meat you might eat that could have went to feed another endangered species. After all, No humans on earth would mean a lot more room for everybody else...

 

So yeah, I get it you don't like Israel, which usually just means you don't like Jews, I get it. No body has to like everyone else and Hate can be quite cool and a great driving force as long as you don't use it to harm other people, but please don't start twisting the truth here or writing blatant lies.

Like I wrote in my first post, the politic-power struggle in that region between Russian-American-sunni arabs-Shia arabs-Chineese-Indian Is so compllicated I would stay away from analyzing it or the USA decision to invade Iraq. What you are doing is the classic mistake of talking bad about the decision of the USA to aid southern Vietnam with troops without sitting in the leaders sit of that time.

[Woldan]

Also I wonder how those Austrian girls are doing. Probably already married to some Chechen rabble and with child.

 

Intelligence reports say they were raped and killed. 

[BruceVC]

 

Also I wonder how those Austrian girls are doing. Probably already married to some Chechen rabble and with child.

 

Intelligence reports say they were raped and killed. 

 

 

Seriously? Or are you joking

[Woldan]

 

 

Also I wonder how those Austrian girls are doing. Probably already married to some Chechen rabble and with child.

 

Intelligence reports say they were raped and killed. 

 

 

Seriously? Or are you joking

 

What kind of sick joke would that be? 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Also I wonder how those Austrian girls are doing. Probably already married to some Chechen rabble and with child.

 

Intelligence reports say they were raped and killed. 

 

 

Seriously? Or are you joking

 

What kind of sick joke would that be? 

 

 Do you have any links, I want to read about this

[Gfted1]

^Its a week old but here you go:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/austrian-teen-joined-jihadists-syria-thought-killed-report-article-1.1940106

[Erez]

The US is responsible for a prolonged Syrian conflict because they trained ISIS and the other rebels. And as for Iraq, let's see here, removed a dictator who had strong control over his country because we didn't like his oil policies... then we didn't partition Iraq in the logical way, split it into a Sunni north, a Shia south, and a tiny portion of Kurdistan northeast, get everyone a second amendment so civilians have a chance at defending themselves from random idiots and the government if it decides to go all Saddam Hussainy on some minorities, then finally ensure all those states are properly decentralized. This would give the army reason to not just abandon their post, the civilians reason to resist, but it'd also mean the people bribing the US government would have to make deals with the locals, who would feel the effects of such deals, and it'd mean we'd have stable states, and we'd have less influence as our constant support wouldn't be needed. Libya is such a great example of a thing that worked, there isn't missing weaponry that probably didn't at all spill into other conflicts, there isn't a dead US ambassador, things aren't going to **** and decending back into chaos, Libya went great!

 

The lower portion of your post presents why America style foreign policy is so terrible and needs to end. Just because the "greater evil" is Communism doesn't mean it's okay to act the way we did, the ends don't justify the means, at least not when the means are far worse than how they may have improved the end is good, all our funding of dictators and physchos resulted in was dead civilians, screwed over countries, and people in areas like South America, who'd probably benifit from communism being badly exploited, the only good thing we did during the timeframe was join the Korean war, everything else is pretty disgusting.

 

Generally the Arab Spring was a failure, the only places that have improved were places that kept their initial leaders in power, gave out some liberties, and then outlasted the protests. Egypt, the best result besides that, exchanged a moderate dictator forcing people to coexist, with islamic extremists democratically elected, with a new more powermad dictator who doesn't care much about protecting minorities, or any kind of freedom that he feels could threaten him.

That may be true, but it sounds like you are so fixated on the obvious things in-front of you, you fail to realize the over reaching consequences of the actions you so easily criticize. Some people would fall back to a morale base to help them through hard times(paragons) But you chose to focus on the practical aspect(renegade) and therefor you must take under consideration all of the consequences of previous united states actions. ofcourse that would take much more than a few paragraphs and therefor not truly worth to bother with on this kind of debate. 

[Woldan]

You sound surprised, Bruce. Down there women aren't worth a penny, they're sold for sheep, stoned to death and disbelievers raped and killed. Guess you have to decide between your agenda for feminism and religious tolerance. 

[JadedWolf]

^Its a week old but here you go:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/austrian-teen-joined-jihadists-syria-thought-killed-report-article-1.1940106

 

Rumours of their deaths may have been exaggerated.

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/dead-austrian-teens-who-joined-isis-claim-be-pregnant-609276

 

It's rather sad that they get so much media attention just because they're lily white. But that's just exactly why the religious zealots wanted them, I guess.

 

[Volourn]

"Actually this sighn meant: "God is great!". Do you has problems with this?"

 

God isn't great. he is evil. He mass murders children so I don't praise him becausee vil should never be praised for being evil.

[NWN_babaYaga]

God cant be evil. Nature cant be evil. But we humans can be evil because we love ourself. The human ego is the absolutely evil once it´s the only thing that matters to a person. Thats all. So once a human is reduced to his ego or animal instinct (food, sex and material possesion) it´s all about being destructive to others. Pretty simple and people knew it even before the pyramids were being build. You can say that our whole civilisation is in the end phase. Ancient people were much wiser as we today because they knew about the ego and it´s influence and how to counter balance it with spirituality.

 

And bombing oneself into oblivion because of the paradise is pretty materialistic too. Because their paradise is a material plane of pure awesomeness to them! 72 virgins is pretty porn stuff!

Edited September 23, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Zoraptor]

The US is responsible for a prolonged Syrian conflict because they trained ISIS and the other rebels.

 

Not really, or at least not significantly. It's the so- and laughably- called 'moderate sunni states'* (plus Turkey) currently partaking in the bombing that did by far the most training and arming of rebels, and who actively encouraged their own wacky bands of religious nutbars by preferentially arming them. Ironically, they're still fighting proxy wars in Libya against each other even as they 'cooperate' in bombing Syria, but they're the last people- even behind Israel and the US- who should be intervening anywhere in the middle east if you want anything approaching a progressive, inclusive end result. The oil can't run out fast enough so they can be cut loose and go back to being medieval totalitarian irrelevancies.

 

Wonder how long it will take for Saudi tanks to roll into Yemen. They've already bombed shia rebels previous, having them running Sana'a won't be tolerated long given their response in Manama.

 

*Bahrain, a sunni emirate ruling majority shia via oppression and having 6000 Saudi troops on call for any required liquidations; Saudi Arabia, largest exporter and financier of terrorism anywhere, run by Salafi/ Wahhabi extremists (same as ISIS, Al-Q, they just went off reservation and don't recognise KSA's obvious superiority) intent on exporting their medieval philosophy everywhere possible, plus the UAE and Qatar, who along with KSA primarily funded and trained ISIS as well as fighting each other by proxy in Libya. The only moderate state in that group is Jordan, and they've always been compliant in recognition of the Brits establishing the current Hashemite monarchy during the Sykes-Picot years, without that they'd be an irrelevant province in some other country.

[Shallow]

 

The US is responsible for a prolonged Syrian conflict because they trained ISIS and the other rebels.

 

Not really, or at least not significantly. It's the so- and laughably- called 'moderate sunni states'* (plus Turkey) currently partaking in the bombing that did by far the most training and arming of rebels, and who actively encouraged their own wacky bands of religious nutbars by preferentially arming them. Ironically, they're still fighting proxy wars in Libya against each other even as they 'cooperate' in bombing Syria, but they're the last people- even behind Israel and the US- who should be intervening anywhere in the middle east if you want anything approaching a progressive, inclusive end result. The oil can't run out fast enough so they can be cut loose and go back to being medieval totalitarian irrelevancies.

 

Wonder how long it will take for Saudi tanks to roll into Yemen. They've already bombed shia rebels previous, having them running Sana'a won't be tolerated long given their response in Manama.

 

*Bahrain, a sunni emirate ruling majority shia via oppression and having 6000 Saudi troops on call for any required liquidations; Saudi Arabia, largest exporter and financier of terrorism anywhere, run by Salafi/ Wahhabi extremists (same as ISIS, Al-Q, they just went off reservation and don't recognise KSA's obvious superiority) intent on exporting their medieval philosophy everywhere possible, plus the UAE and Qatar, who along with KSA primarily funded and trained ISIS as well as fighting each other by proxy in Libya. The only moderate state in that group is Jordan, and they've always been compliant in recognition of the Brits establishing the current Hashemite monarchy during the Sykes-Picot years, without that they'd be an irrelevant province in some other country.

 

Yeah, meant to quote a post from Bruce claiming the US had 0 responsibility in the conflict in Syria dragging on, didn't mean to imply the US was solely responsible, or even close to solely responsible, obviously the various nonsecular Sunni states have had a massive effect down there. I fully agree that encouraging other outsider middleeasterners to participate in dealing with middleeastern internal problems isn't a good idea.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Shallow

[Erez]

Yeah, meant to quote a post from Bruce claiming the US had 0 responsibility in the conflict in Syria dragging on, didn't mean to imply the US was solely responsible, or even close to solely responsible, obviously the various nonsecular Sunni states have had a massive effect down there. I fully agree that encouraging other outsider middleeasterners to participate in dealing with middleeastern internal problems isn't a good idea.

 

What is it you choose to criticize here? That the usa should have intervened less and let assad, hezbollah and Iran do what they always had or that the usa should have intervened more by sending troops to fight in without any direct connection to them?

Situation is complicated, no one can tell with confidence what is the smart thing to do, and more so no one can tell with confidence what is the morally right thing to do since morale will always depend on the beholder.

One thing i can tell with certainty, from my point of view it seems that no matter what was the conflict. The USA and other global powers have always acted in a way that suited their interest best, and those interests reflected the interests of their citizens. Including the Vietnam + Iraq Wars.

[Volourn]

"God cant be evil."

 

God can and is evil. This is undisputable fact.

[Namutree]

God cant be evil. Nature cant be evil. But we humans can be evil because we love ourself. The human ego is the absolutely evil once it´s the only thing that matters to a person. Thats all. So once a human is reduced to his ego or animal instinct (food, sex and material possesion) it´s all about being destructive to others.

I find it is the opposite of this that is the truth. It's usually those who think that dictating other people's lives will make a better world that tend to be villains.

 

Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, and histories other great villains didn't care much about their own lives, but rather they were obsessed with controlling others.

[Woldan]

"God cant be evil."

 

God can and is evil. This is undisputable fact.

What god?