Lets talk about Crafting / Enchanting

[Fiebras]

Have you tried crafting yet? What do you think about it and enchanting?

 

I think crafting and enchanting shouldnt be done by your adventurers. Food and SOME potions and scrolls are fine since you have wizards, druids, chanters, priests and such but I think some recepies should maybe be tied to the survivalist and lore abilities (make a party-wide check to see what the highest ability score is).

 

I honestly think towns should have an "Enchanter" merchant though. It could be the person selling you the potions and ingredients in the village for example.Sure you have wizards, druids, chanters, priests and such of your own but it would feel weird if a team of fighters, rogues, and rangers would be able to enchant.

 

In games that have crafting and enchanting I always hoard materials first and then in-between quests or locations I sit down, have a good think and craft/enchant. It feels unecessary to be able to do it on the fly. To me it should be a ritual thing done during moments of pause since it tends to be a big deal, and giving a face to those moments via an NPC that facilitates the craft as a service would help flesh out the system and give it more personality and inmersion, imo.

 

This is of course my issue on how the mechanic is implemented and presented, not about the mechanic itself and the metagame of it. Feel free to give your opinions on that.

[Skipperro]

I tend to disagree about NPC Enchanter. I've always was a fan of an idea, that your character can always make something, a sword, potion or spell, that is superior to NPC wares in some fields. Might be cheaper, might do more damage, might be more customized or simply allowing to create complete custom-gear, with the magic effects you need, by yourself. Ultima Online crafting an enchanting is my favourite system.

[Seari]

Kill it with fire, is all I'm gonna say about enchanting and crafting.

[Yonjuro]

Have you tried crafting yet? What do you think about it and enchanting?

 

 

 Yes, I enchanted some armor with the Ogre blood etc. Here a few thoughts about it:

 

1. I like the idea that you can keep your items and make them viable for the entire game by adding enchantments. 

2. I like that you can see a list of recipes (rather than have Cromwell or Cespenar read you their entire list from the beginning every time).

3. I don't like the pixel hunt for plant ingredients. Either simplify the recipes, make the tab highlight work better or some other option that would make the whole system work better.

4. The list of recipes should probably have:

4a. an optional filter so that you can see only the recipes for which you have the ingredients

4b. a second optional filter of the recipes for which you have some of the ingredients (so you can see what to look for).

4c. a checkbox for recipes that interest you that will generate a journal entry when you find an ingredient for one of those recipes

4d. add your ideas for additonal UI improvements here   

[DCParry]

First, a big YES on tab highlighting ingredients.

 

Second, I think the ability to enchant things is dependent on in world justification. In most settings, enchanting is a particular craft, like blacksmithing and such, that I find it somewhat absurd that my PC, unless I specifically pick an option that says I have spent a chunk of my life practising a craft, can surpass master craftsman after completing my apprenticeship in making 2 daggers.  Hell, even if I picked up blacksmithing I should only have the experience to make simple, mundane objects like horseshoes. Same with something like alchemy, I mean, I wouldn't trust Harry Potter to mix me a milkshake much less a healing potion. 

 

However, if enchanting is just a matter or focusing your will, then if you have sufficient will than you could do it with a little training. Of course, this should then logically result in a greater density of enchanted items in the world.

[Fiebras]

Kill it with fire, is all I'm gonna say about enchanting and crafting.

Its not gonna go away if you ignore it.

 

I tend to disagree about NPC Enchanter. I've always was a fan of an idea, that your character can always make something, a sword, potion or spell, that is superior to NPC wares in some fields. Might be cheaper, might do more damage, might be more customized or simply allowing to create complete custom-gear, with the magic effects you need, by yourself. Ultima Online crafting an enchanting is my favourite system.

I agree that you get a bigger feeling of attachment to your gear with a self-made weapon. My problem with it is that as things are now you can pretty much have the best gear for you made by you and that makes unique and legendary items feel cheap or just useless. At least mid-late game when you will probably have enough money to enchant everything.

 

I argue for an NPC enchanter simply because to me it feels weird to have my party stop in the middle of the wilderness to craft and enchant items.

 

@Yonjuro: I agree with everything you said. Tabs or filters would be great. Though the recepies already tell you the ingredients so I wouldnt know how much more useful it would be.

[Cantousent]

Kill it with fire, is all I'm gonna say about enchanting and crafting.

No chance in hell, but I completely agree with you.  If we're going to have enchanting, either make it truly interesting or keep it as out of our faces as much as possible.  Of everything in the game, I think they dropped the ball on crafting.  It's the only thing other than outright bugs or fixable system things that I think is simply horrible design.

[Yonjuro]

 

@Yonjuro: I agree with everything you said. Tabs or filters would be great. Though the recepies already tell you the ingredients so I wouldnt know how much more useful it would be.

 

 

  The reason I like the idea of filters is that right now you get a list of all of the recipes and you need to click each one to see if you have the ingredients for it . A filter can show you only the recipes you can make with the ingredients you already have. 

[frogdown]

I was disappointed I didn't have an option to get meat from killing the deer - or for that matter the wolves and lions

 

@Yonjuro: I agree with everything you said.

 

The ability to learn different recipes in regard to quests, random drops and character skill/class/race is something I'm expecting will occur with this feature that I think could enhance the game if the UI get a little better

[wanderon]

 

 

@Yonjuro: I agree with everything you said. Tabs or filters would be great. Though the recepies already tell you the ingredients so I wouldnt know how much more useful it would be.

 

 

  The reason I like the idea of filters is that right now you get a list of all of the recipes and you need to click each one to see if you have the ingredients for it . A filter can show you only the recipes you can make with the ingredients you already have. 

 

 

So filters you can choose or not choose with a button push? Because it might be nice to see only recipies you have the ingredients for but it might be useful to see the better ones you only lack  some fairly common materials for before using up some hard to find materials on a lesser one.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

 

@Yonjuro: I agree with everything you said. Tabs or filters would be great. Though the recepies already tell you the ingredients so I wouldnt know how much more useful it would be.

 

 

  The reason I like the idea of filters is that right now you get a list of all of the recipes and you need to click each one to see if you have the ingredients for it . A filter can show you only the recipes you can make with the ingredients you already have. 

 

 

So filters you can choose or not choose with a button push? Because it might be nice to see only recipies you have the ingredients for but it might be useful to see the better ones you only lack  some fairly common materials for before using up some hard to find materials on a lesser one.

 

 

 

 Yes, exactly. The second filter ("4b" in my post) would do that (and it would also be chosen (or not) with a button push).

[ctdavids]

So, I'm not a fan of crafting systems in single player games for a couple of reasons.  From a game-world point of view, it seems illogical to me that my characters (who specialize in beating stuff up) can do something NPCs can't (or do it better), despite them devoting their time to their craft.

 

More importantly, to my mind, there's the gameplay issue which is that because it's a single player game all the items you receive are limited in quantity meaning you can do X ogre blood enchants over the course of the game.  And generally, you find some items for high-level enchants early on (for instance, Divinity: Original Sin gave you rubies which give BIS resistance buff starting from the first areas in the game) which means you have this weird situation where you could enchant your gear, but don't because you want to use it on something you'll keep around.  But how do you, as a first time player, know which items those are?  To me, that just results in decision paralysis and makes me just hate the system.  In MMOs, like Ultima Online mentioned above, you can always get more resources if you work at is so there isn't that 'this could mess up my game' feeling.  That makes it better, IMO, but not acutally good.  I would much rather just find items I can use.

 

In terms of the mechanics of this particular implementation, I would say

1) I agree with Yonjuro's points 2 through 4

2a) If you're going to have items that get marked as ingredients and go in a special tab, then ALL things that can be used as ingredients should go in that tab (for instance, the emerald you get from a quest does not, but it can be used for crafting

2b) If you're going to have a special tab for ingredients, I would like to be able to see it (you can't currently, unless I'm mistaken) and sell stuff from it

3) I find the use of money to enchant a bit odd.  I guess it's a limiting mechanic, but it feels weird to me.

4) To the extent that enchants/crafts have levels it would be nice if we could order them in increasing order of level.  Not 100% sure that applies in this game, but figured I'd mention it.

[Arsene Lupin]

I think crafting really only works in single player games with finite resources where resource management is a major aspect of the game (like TLOU). If you can't buy arrows, there's a fun dynamic in scrounging for the materials and skills to make your own--and when you can only manage to craft a half dozen arrows, you are much more invested in each shot--literally and emotionally.

 

But Pillars of Eternity is not that kind of game. Shops are plentiful and have varied stocks, which restock over time. This renders the crafting system largely irrelevant.

 

Why?

 

Its more efficient to simply purchase basic goods, and it doesn't make sense to be able to craft advanced goods from a lore perspective. This isn't Recettear, after all.

 

...

 

I haven't played with either system much, but as much as I think crafting is unnecessary and a drain on resources better spent elsewhere, I think that enchanting could potentially make a lot of sense in the game. Well, depending pon how it is implemented.

 

Again, from a lore perspective it wouldn't make a lot of sense to enchant items with powerful ubermagicks. But what would make sense is if enchantments acted as item buffs--just like she!!s on creatures. That is to say, they could grant temporary effects to items for the cost of some gold and/or items.

 

IE you could enchant a sword to do fire damage for its next 15 attacks, or enchant a helmet to deflect the next 5 critical hits, etc., etc.

 

The temporary nature would allow enchanting to cohere with the lore/roleplay aspect, as well as create a much more tactical dynamic than permanent enchants.

[Roarkkk]

I think crafting / enchanting is a nice feature, but not required IMO.

I'd rather that money was spent on other content such as 2D artwork for weapons.

[Matt516]

I don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other, tbh.... I mean, I'm not a big fan of crafting/enchanting systems in cRPGs in general, as they are generally either gamebreaking or worthless. But at the same time, some people really enjoy crafting, and it's not impossible to balance.

 

If it is in the game though, a merchant/special place (maybe in stronghold) makes more sense to me than being able to craft anywhere.

 

As with most games that include crafting though, I'll probably just ignore it if I don't like how its implemented.

[Marceror]

I haven't spent much time with crafting/enchanting yet. I think I'll wait until the game is a bit more stable before I do so.

 

For those suggesting it should go away, well, it was a stretch goal so if it wasn't included in the game that would put a lot of people off I'm sure. So Obsidian is just going to have to make sure it's well done instead.

 

I have absolutely no problem with a well done, well balanced system for crafting and enchanting. I do agree that placing restrictions on when and where you can do it makes sense. I'd suggest implementing crafting benches similar to those in NWN2. Creating a sword and imbuing it with magical properties should NOT be something you do as you're walking to the cave of horrible and eternal death. It should be one of those "in between" adventure activities.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Marceror

[archangel979]

I liked crafting in later NWN2 when they finally implemented real D&D crafting system.

I would like to see something similar with crafting needing special talents, a noticeable cost (like XP or permanent loss of Soul in some way) and components gained from enemies in the world (for the really rare and poweful crafting recipe) but let you create really powerful stuff like in NWN2.

Also I still want hidden recipes that would unlock PoE versions of Flail of Ages, Anheg armors and such.

 

Oh and I don't want be able to craft wherever but at special places that can only be found in civilization or special places like wizard towers and such.

[morhilane]

Bumping up this thread because I decided to give enchanting a go (by cheating in ingredients and money, not enough of both in the beta to really do anything with it).

 

The UI

 

I really think the tree should have sub-sections based on what the enchantments do. Well maybe not Shield Mod because there is few of them, but Armor and Weapons have a lot of choices that could be categorized. Example: 

 

Armor mods can be categorized in damage type resistance (all the X-proofed), skills upgrade, attribute increase (Of attribute_name), quality (fine, exceptional, superb) and others (stuff like Retaliation/Break-out). They should be grouped together, has opposed to go through all the list to find the one that you want.

 

Same goes for Weapon: slaying, quality, accuracy related mods, damage related mods and others (stuff like Overbearing).

 

What can and can't be enchanted

 

BB Fighter's helmet, BB Wizard's cape and starter clothing (some class can start with that on their back) can't be enchanted.

 

The sash you can buy at Dyrwood village tanner can be enchanted further because it haven't reached the max yet and it's already enchanted.

 

I think that players should be able to make their own enchanted helmet/cap/cloth with probably a subset of the Armor Mods selection.

 

Enchantments

 

Some stuff looks a bit crazy to me, especially once you start to add them at the same time. For example, Damaging 3 adding a x2.5 damage multiplier to weapons or Overbearing adding knock-down to all critical hits...and you can add both at the same time on a weapon. I know that Damaging 3 is a "end-game" enchantments but unless everyone will require that x2.5 damage multiplier seems a lot to me.

 

Possible bugs/issues

 

In the Shield mods, Harbringer does -10 accuracy and no positive. That doesn't look like something you really want to add on your shield...

 

After adding an enchantment, the Enchant button will still look usable but you get a popup telling you the enchant is already on the item. It should become greyed out after usage, unless you can add the same enchantment more than once (which doesn't look to be the case).

 

The max number of enchantments on a items is confusing. Seems to be 4, but I'm not sure. The reason for that is that it appear some enchants are unavailable after you put 3 on the item or their are mutually exclusive which is not mentioned/shown anywhere in the game.

[Hellraiser789]

Anybody play Kotor 2? I liked how they did crafting in that game. You couldn't craft anywhere - only at workbenches and you could only craft things if you had the appropriate skills. Of course there were a ton more skills in that game, but this could be an opportunity to add more non-combat skills to the game due to the fact it was just delayed. And you never really felt the item-use paralysis because you could always make/buy the necessary components, so using them was never THAT big a deal, but when you came across an awesome component you were like "sweet!". 

 

I think if they simply made it so the absolute best equipment were unique and could not be crafted, while you could craft really good equipment that would last you the game, it just wasnt the best. That would reinforce the uniqueness of legendary weapons but still let you feel like it was worth it to craft good stuff. 

 

Might be cool to have enchanter/blacksmiths who would be willing to sell you blueprints so you could make the items on your own (blueprints would cost more and require appropriate skills). This way you could pay the smiths/enchanters to make it for you, or just buy the blueprints so you can make it as many times as you want.

[dunehunter]

I would like to see the option to get extra ingredient from magical equipments that we dont want to keep anymore

[Lephys]

I would honestly rather just have all those ingredients and such be extra currency you loot/find, and just have some Enchanter dudes in various locations that allow you to pick whatever enchantments you want, and pay for them. Same with crafting. I'd rather just buy/find the items, than find a bunch of ingredients, then just happen to technically "craft" some stuff.

 

It really serves almost no purpose other than to provide a slight, psychological "Yay, I made stuff!" feeling, and maybe to provide slightly different timings for item acquisition (out in the field instead of in town, or technically wherever you want... of course, you have to have just looted something in order to be able to spontaneously craft something you previously couldn't have, so you might as well have just found the craftable, itself.)