Discussion: the PoE beta xp system

[Caladian]

The partial quest xp has always been there, always got my first lvl up entering the spider cave.

[Stun]

I understand your point, and I won't argue that you're wrong, because I don't think you are. However, at the cost of some confusion and some inconsistency, arbitrary rewards can properly reward various playstyles in a way I think only reward every single tiny action a player makes (like taking a step, or swinging a sword, or breathing) systems can, and those systems have their own inherent flaws. Quest xp (with or without combat xp tagging along) is also inherently extremely arbitrary, not much less arbitrary than my honest arbitraryness.

 

The way I see it, either you get an arbitrary quest xp system, an arbitrary quest xp system with a reward tiny actions system tagged on, a pure reward tiny actions system (which results in TES style xp progression), or just honest arbitraryness. The good thing about honest arbitrary xp is that you don't waste time building an inherently flawed and most likely arbitrary system, and that you aren't confined by such a system. I do however understand why some prefer systems, and systems generally are indeed a bit more consistent.

Why are we Kill-XP folks always forced to defend the notion of XP rewards for every action when it isn't what we're advocating at all? There's a HUGE difference between assigning XP values to combat encounters vs. assigning XP values to 'taking a step' or 'swinging a sword', or 'disarming a trap'. The latter rewards specific builds and punishes others (won't be getting sword-swinging XP if you're a mage!) and is not designed for a party-based game anyway, while the former doesn't do either. It merely rewards resolution - granting the player complete freedom to decide how he wishes to achieve that resolution. We are asking for Kill XP. Let me repeat that: We're asking for Kill XP.

 

As for the 'arbitrary' argument. Nope. No sale. There's nothing that hand placed arbitrary XP distribution brings to the table that Quest and kill xp doesn't. Except for maybe randomness. Quests can be dynamic enough to reward all sorts of Playstyles, and Kill XP, being directly tied to combat, does the same thing by nature (every single class is designed to excel in combat, thus every single build can use its strengths and get through a combat encounter and receive XP)

Edited September 11, 2014 by Stun

[Cantousent]

I contend that quest XP is in and of itself just as arbitrary as hand placed XP.  By definition, all of it is arbitrary.  There is no completely objective standard for when, how, or how much to award for kills.  However, kill XP can be consistent within the system whereas results XP relies on the subjective assessment of the design team.  Of course, all manner of things within the game rely on that same subjective assessment of the design team.  I can see a desire for consistency, even if I don't think everything should be sacrificed for it, pretty much the same way I balance.

[Shallow]

 

I understand your point, and I won't argue that you're wrong, because I don't think you are. However, at the cost of some confusion and some inconsistency, arbitrary rewards can properly reward various playstyles in a way I think only reward every single tiny action a player makes (like taking a step, or swinging a sword, or breathing) systems can, and those systems have their own inherent flaws. Quest xp (with or without combat xp tagging along) is also inherently extremely arbitrary, not much less arbitrary than my honest arbitraryness.

 

The way I see it, either you get an arbitrary quest xp system, an arbitrary quest xp system with a reward tiny actions system tagged on, a pure reward tiny actions system (which results in TES style xp progression), or just honest arbitraryness. The good thing about honest arbitrary xp is that you don't waste time building an inherently flawed and most likely arbitrary system, and that you aren't confined by such a system. I do however understand why some prefer systems, and systems generally are indeed a bit more consistent.

Why are we Kill-XP folks always forced to defend the notion of XP rewards for every action when it isn't what we're advocating at all? There's a HUGE difference between assigning XP values combat encounters vs. assigning XP values to 'taking a step' or 'swinging a sword', or 'disarming a trap'. The latter rewards specific builds and punishes others (won't be getting sword-swinging XP if you're a mage!), while the former doesn't do either. It merely rewards resolution - granting the player complete freedom to decide how he wishes to achieve that resolution. We are asking for Kill XP. Let me repeat that: We're asking for Kill XP.

 

As for the 'arbitrary' argument. Nope. No sale. There's nothing that hand placed arbitrary XP distribution brings to the table that Quest and kill xp doesn't. Except for maybe randomness. Quests can be dynamic enough to reward all sorts of Playstyles, and Kill XP, being directly tied to combat, does the same thing by nature (every single class is designed to excel in combat, thus every single build can use its strengths and get through a combat encounter and receive XP)

 

I meant that (xp for everything) as the general far off ultimate into that direction you can go, in no way did I mean to imply you sought such a thing, I sincerely apologise if you felt mislabelled.

As for your second portion of your post, that's just not true. What arbitrary xp specifically can reward is getting through dungeons and wilderness areas one way or the other, regardless of whether you were told to go there, regardless of whether you stumbled upon Farmer Joe after defeating the magic sentinent cutlery of king Boris the lazy. Combat xp only rewards you if you fight your way through the areas to get through said dungeons or wilderness areas, quest xp only rewards you if you're a social talkity kind of guy (by that I mean that you have to talk to a questgiver, not that you have to be passive or take the dialogy route), honest arbitrary xp if done right will give you benifit in a dynamicyer way than either of those systems, by the virtue of not being a system, and developers being able to give xp for whatever minimilestones they feel deserve xp, probably primarily from reaching certain places, dealing with certain quest-tied characters/ogres one way or another, finding hidden stuff, and in probably smaller segments for talking to a couple random minor village idjits with interresting things to say.

 

BTW: Saying "quest xp can be dynamic eough to reward all sorts of Playstyles" is a pretty big argument against combat xp in any event.

I contend that quest XP is in and of itself just as arbitrary as hand placed XP.  By definition, all of it is arbitrary.  There is no completely objective standard for when, how, or how much to award for kills.  However, kill XP can be consistent within the system whereas results XP relies on the subjective assessment of the design team.  Of course, all manner of things within the game rely on that same subjective assessment of the design team.  I can see a desire for consistency, even if I don't think everything should be sacrificed for it, pretty much the same way I balance.

You can set an objective standard for kill xp if you want to, it'd be silly, but you could write a formula, the formula in itself would still be a bit arbitrary, but everything is arbitrary down at the core.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Shallow

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Gfted1: I can now confirm that in V278, you do get subquest xp. So far my record is two subject xp incidents during one quest. 

 

It has always been like that as far as I know. In my very first playthrough, I leveled up after killing the adventurer party guarding the drake egg (which was after cleaning the spider's cave). In fact, I didn't even realize there was no combat XP because of that.

 

I didn't talk to the pig farmer the first around, so I went there without having activated the quest during the last patch BB.

[PrimeHydra]

I'm having a hard time sticking with the beta simply because combat feels unrewarding. When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing. It feels decidedly un-Baldur's Gate and un-Icewind Dale. It feels like we're being denied combat XP simply because it would require effort to balance such a system. But such a system is sorely missing from a combat-heavy game.

Edited September 13, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Marceror]

I'm having a hard time sticking with the beta simply because combat feels unrewarding. When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing. It feels decidedly un-Baldur's Gate and un-Icewind Dale. It feels like we're being denied combat XP simply because it would require effort to balance such a system. But such a system is sorely missing from a combat-heavy game.

Oh, come on. You totally get wolf hides, beetle shells and stuff. Makes it totally worth it!

[Silverbarr]

Ha, the rewards are so lacklustre it makes me feel nauseous when I see what's in the bag

[PrimeHydra]

 

I'm having a hard time sticking with the beta simply because combat feels unrewarding. When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing. It feels decidedly un-Baldur's Gate and un-Icewind Dale. It feels like we're being denied combat XP simply because it would require effort to balance such a system. But such a system is sorely missing from a combat-heavy game.

Oh, come on. You totally get wolf hides, beetle shells and stuff. Makes it totally worth it!

 

Can't tell if sarcastic

[Marceror]

/sarcas

 

 

 

I'm having a hard time sticking with the beta simply because combat feels unrewarding. When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing. It feels decidedly un-Baldur's Gate and un-Icewind Dale. It feels like we're being denied combat XP simply because it would require effort to balance such a system. But such a system is sorely missing from a combat-heavy game.

Oh, come on. You totally get wolf hides, beetle shells and stuff. Makes it totally worth it!

 

Can't tell if sarcastic

 

/Sarcasm radar fail

[PrimeHydra]

/sarcas

 

 

 

I'm having a hard time sticking with the beta simply because combat feels unrewarding. When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing. It feels decidedly un-Baldur's Gate and un-Icewind Dale. It feels like we're being denied combat XP simply because it would require effort to balance such a system. But such a system is sorely missing from a combat-heavy game.

Oh, come on. You totally get wolf hides, beetle shells and stuff. Makes it totally worth it!

 

Can't tell if sarcastic

 

/Sarcasm radar fail

 

Wait, I get ****in' lion's teeth and wolf pelts? Who needs levels? That's BADASS.

[prodigydancer]

When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing.

Victory should be its own reward. And it is when the battle is challenging. On the other hand, XP awards don't make easy and boring fights any more interesting.

[Xienzi]

 

When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing.

Victory should be its own reward. And it is when the battle is challenging. On the other hand, XP awards don't make easy and boring fights any more interesting.

 

Yeah, no. Unless you get something after the battle be it useful items or XP, victory is never its own reward. At least, in a game.

[Namutree]

 

When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing.

Victory should be its own reward. And it is when the battle is challenging. On the other hand, XP awards don't make easy and boring fights any more interesting.

 

Are you serious? Getting xp is half the fun of rpgs. That's my experience, and I doubt I'm alone.

[archangel979]

 

 

When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing.

Victory should be its own reward. And it is when the battle is challenging. On the other hand, XP award s don't make easy and boring fights any more interesting.

Xp certainly makes them more bearable.

[PrimeJunta]

Imma let you finish but Vampire: Bloodlines had the best XP system of all time.

[Namutree]

Imma let you finish but Vampire: Bloodlines had the best XP system of all time.

Heh, reference.

[prodigydancer]

victory is never its own reward. At least, in a game.

/double facepalm

[archangel979]

Imma let you finish but Vampire: Bloodlines had the best XP system of all time.

it was best one for that game. There is no universal best xp system.

[Serdan]

 

 

When I defeat a slew of tough enemies (and most enemies are tough), I often get...absolutely nothing.

Victory should be its own reward. And it is when the battle is challenging. On the other hand, XP awards don't make easy and boring fights any more interesting.

 

Yeah, no. Unless you get something after the battle be it useful items or XP, victory is never its own reward. At least, in a game.

 

There are whole genres where the primary motivation is simply to win...

[Namutree]

 

Yeah, no. Unless you get something after the battle be it useful items or XP, victory is never its own reward. At least, in a game.

 

 

 

 

 

There are whole genres where the primary motivation is simply to win...

 

They tend to be multiplayer.

[Serdan]

 

 

Yeah, no. Unless you get something after the battle be it useful items or XP, victory is never its own reward. At least, in a game.

 

 

 

 

 

There are whole genres where the primary motivation is simply to win...

 

They tend to be multiplayer.

 

Irrelevant really, given Xienzi's absurd generalization, but there are other genres where the primary motivation is simply to complete the game. Winning against the designers, in a sense. (e.g. Portal)

The point is that immediate "rewards" are not necessary for  the enjoyment of a game as long as the gameplay is actually fun.

[archangel979]

Except in Portal you get immediate reward by advancing to next area.

And Portal and cRPG games are not really comparable.

[Serdan]

Except in Portal you get immediate reward by advancing to next area.

And Portal and cRPG games are not really comparable.

Progression by completing a challenge is not a reward... it's simply progression.

Even if you wanna call it a reward for some unhelpful reason it is not at all comparable to something like kill xp.

[archangel979]

 

 

Except in Portal you get immediate reward by advancing to next area.

And Portal and cRPG games are not really comparable.

Progression by completing a challenge is not a reward... it's simply progression.

Even if you wanna call it a reward for some unhelpful reason it is not at all comparable to something like kill xp.

I didn't first mention Portal in this discussion and I even said it is not comparable.

And all games are about receiving some mental reward for your actions during the game.

In Portal that is gained by progressing to next area.

But PoE has trash mobs and to many people fighting those is not rewarding by itself and they want a traditional reward that worked well in 100+ games before - XP.

 

I've been playing bg2 recently and after each fight with tought trash mobs I like to check how much more XP my guys need to next level. The fights are easy and drops are almost meaningless and XP is only real reward. And I don't want really tough fights vs trash, I want those to be around a quest or some special encounters with named enemies. Random beetles or wolves will never be to me more than trash mobs.

Edited September 14, 2014 by archangel979