On "Degenerative Gameplay" - Fixing the Incentives for Healing and Scouting

[Uomoz]

Just had one idea about the stamina/health mechanic. 

 

How about if there was a spell--perhaps a wizard or druid spell--which distributed vital force between linked individuals? 

 

Or, in game terms, equalized health in the party?

 

This way you'd be able to keep truckin' if one of your dudes got beat on rather badly, without having to treat him like a Ming vase, but health would still be a strategic resource that would deplete as you got roughed up. This would make it behave more like DnD divine healing; there you could after all decide who to heal.

 

It would be quite mandatory for all parties.

[Namutree]

One solution is to follow two steps-

 

1) Increase our health by 50%.

 

2) If we run out of stamina (Except the barbarian) we lose 25% additional health as a penalty.

[Stun]

- If I want to find hidden items, I have to walk around in scouting mode all the time.

 

This is just dumb. Walking around in constant scouting mode with the game in fast motion is the optimal way to play right now. And that's stupid. Scouting needs to be overhauled (i.e. with some passive component) or removed. Structuring a game mechanic such that the optimal strategy is to do something absurd is the absolute definition of degenerative gameplay.

There's a really simple solution to this one. Remove Detection from the scouting mode. It doesn't belong there anyway. Give it its own "detect" button that can be switched on/off at will without making everyone walk slo-mo.

 

Oh sorry, what am I thinking. We can't do that. It'd be too IE-game-like, and we all know those games are synonymous with Degenerate Gameplay.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Stun

[Matt516]

 

- If I want to find hidden items, I have to walk around in scouting mode all the time.

 

This is just dumb. Walking around in constant scouting mode with the game in fast motion is the optimal way to play right now. And that's stupid. Scouting needs to be overhauled (i.e. with some passive component) or removed. Structuring a game mechanic such that the optimal strategy is to do something absurd is the absolute definition of degenerative gameplay.

There's a really simple solution to this one. Remove Detection from the scouting mode. It doesn't belong there anyway. Give it its own "detect" button that can be switched on/off at will without making everyone walk slo-mo.

 

Oh sorry, what am I thinking. We can't do that. It'd be too IE-game-like, and we all know those games are synonymous with Degenerate Gameplay.

 

 

See, this is what I'm talking about. Josh Sawyer doesn't think the IE games are synonymous with DG - he just finds some aspects of them DG. You may disagree about what was or wasn't DG, but turning the term into a pejorative doesn't really help anyone - it's a useful term when used correctly.

 

And your suggestion is spot-on. They need to just make detect hidden a passive thing of some sort. 

 

EDIT: And let's be honest - as great as the IE games were, there's no denying that some aspects of the game design were degenerative - the IE games were fantastic but they weren't perfect.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Matt516

[Valorian]

 

 

What the game could do is provide you with some positive reinforcement for finishing a battle conscious. Something similar to the bonus you get at an inn (but with a shorter duration).

 

Or, maybe it could remove the bonus you got at the inn if you do fall unconscious.

 

They could make downed character's fatigue level rise, which would make their efficiency drop after each downing. 

 

 

Actually, I think I've come up with the most straightforward solution. Make regenerating your stamina from unconsciousness cost a larger chunk of your health than healing the equivalent of amount of regular stamina damage does.

 

 

 

Or direct health damage whenever you fall unconscious, -10 health or something.

If they believe falling in combat should be additionally punished, that is.

[Matt516]

That's the crux of it IMO. Falling in combat should be punished somehow, because as it is there's no penalty (AFAIK) for doing so.

[Stun]

See, this is what I'm talking about. Josh Sawyer doesn't think the IE games are synonymous with DG - he just finds some aspects of them DG. You may disagree about what was or wasn't DG, but turning the term into a pejorative doesn't really help anyone - it's a useful term when used correctly.

Both of the issues you brought up are the resulting "fixes" to what he thought were degenerate gameplay in the IE games. *THAT* is the reason for the gripes.

 

1) Health + Stamina bar - in the IE games, people just reloaded when one of their characters died. Josh saw this as DG, so he created a bizarre system that reduces the chances of people dying.

 

2) The slo-mo Scout mode that also encompasses detection - In the IE games, both stealth and trap detection were Overpowered rogue skills, as they cost the player nothing in terms of gameplay. Your Rogue could simply turn both modes on, and function just as efficiently as the mage or fighter who's not actively trying to look for anything or trying to hide.

 

THAT, my friend, is why I cringe whenever Josh discusses Degenerate gameplay - because we know that he's going to try and come up with some absurdly convoluted fix, which will typically result in either a reduction of fun, or a reduction in... sense, and at the same time, will simply introduce new types of Degenerate Gameplay.

 

 

And your suggestion is spot-on. They need to just make detect hidden a passive thing of some sort.

I wouldn't even call it passive, as it wouldn't (shouldn't) result an automatic success without some effort on the player's part. Theoretically, the player in Detect mode should still move cautiously, like he had to in Durlag's tower if he didn't want to be fried by a deadly trap. Success and failure should depend on 1) how many ranks in.... whatever skill governs trap/secret object detection, and 2) the recurring time-governed check that the game would make when a detector comes near the hidden object/trap. Edited September 6, 2014 by Stun

[Elerond]

Losing one member from your party is punishment, but it isn't necessary enough punishment to incentive enough to prevent people to let their characters to fall down.

 

Detection of secrets and traps is something that players want by default to do as not doing so only penalties players, as slower movement speed outside of the combat is only burden which isn't really incentive not to do things but punishment for players to doing things in optimal way. Which is way detection should be always on or there should be some other incentive than faster movement speed not using it constantly. 

[Sensuki]

I wouldn't say the new degenerative gameplay is intentional, it's unintentional. It is an issue though.

[aeonsim]

That's the crux of it IMO. Falling in combat should be punished somehow, because as it is there's no penalty (AFAIK) for doing so.

 

Quick Q, if you fall in combat with a DoT effect won't all the remaining damage go directly to health at a 1:1 rate rather than the 4:1 rate for when you still have stamina? Also once you come up against enemies with AOE attacks you could be down and still taking health damage at 1:1. Also what happens to your defenses do they remain providing some protect against AoE attacks or do they drop to 0 meaning you are also always taking critical hits and damage against your health?

 

If it does shift to 1:1 with regards to health damage that's a really good reason to keep your party up and fighting...

Edited September 6, 2014 by aeonsim

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Just had one idea about the stamina/health mechanic. 

 

How about if there was a spell--perhaps a wizard or druid spell--which distributed vital force between linked individuals? 

 

Or, in game terms, equalized health in the party?

 

This way you'd be able to keep truckin' if one of your dudes got beat on rather badly, without having to treat him like a Ming vase, but health would still be a strategic resource that would deplete as you got roughed up. This would make it behave more like DnD divine healing; there you could after all decide who to heal.

 

You mean like the 4th ed ritual Comrade's Sucor that I've been bleating about in so many threads and that I asked Josh about and he didn't respond to a while back? Gosh, who would have thought that would be one idea?

 

No, nobody has never come up with such an idea before!

[Enoch]

Detection of secrets and traps is something that players want by default to do as not doing so only penalties players, as slower movement speed outside of the combat is only burden which isn't really incentive not to do things but punishment for players to doing things in optimal way. Which is way detection should be always on or there should be some other incentive than faster movement speed not using it constantly. 

 

I have to agree.  Creeping along slowly and searching for stuff is one of those game elements that feels completely logical, but that just makes the game a drag to play. 

 

 

(Durlag's Tower was awful.)

Edited September 7, 2014 by Enoch

[PrimeJunta]

Sorry, Hiro -- I hadn't noticed you mentioning the idea. Despite the appearances, I only read some parts of some threads here and do miss a lot of good stuff.

 

I do try to give credit if I'm boosting other people's ideas, if I can remember who came up with them.

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

There's a really simple solution to this one. Remove Detection from the scouting mode. It doesn't belong there anyway. Give it its own "detect" button that can be switched on/off at will without making everyone walk slo-mo.

 

Oh sorry, what am I thinking. We can't do that. It'd be too IE-game-like, and we all know those games are synonymous with Degenerate Gameplay.

 

I never used stealth in the IE games to scout ahead because it would just trigger traps. Combining Stealth and Detection is a pretty good solution. 

 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Sorry, Hiro -- I hadn't noticed you mentioning the idea. Despite the appearances, I only read some parts of some threads here and do miss a lot of good stuff.

 

I do try to give credit if I'm boosting other people's ideas, if I can remember who came up with them.

 

 

Well it seems one person who loves and plays 4th ed and thinks it's amazing as well as thinking the current system in PoE is great thinks the ritual is gamey. LMAO. Seriously. Of all the things I could come up with, gamey is not one of them.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[PrimeJunta]

There's a really simple solution to this one. Remove Detection from the scouting mode. It doesn't belong there anyway. Give it its own "detect" button that can be switched on/off at will without making everyone walk slo-mo.

 

If it doesn't impose a movement speed penalty, under what circumstances would you ever want to switch it off?

[Uomoz]

 

 

Sorry, Hiro -- I hadn't noticed you mentioning the idea. Despite the appearances, I only read some parts of some threads here and do miss a lot of good stuff.

 

I do try to give credit if I'm boosting other people's ideas, if I can remember who came up with them.

 

 

Well it seems one person who loves and plays 4th ed and thinks it's amazing as well as thinking the current system in PoE is great thinks the ritual is gamey. LMAO. Seriously. Of all the things I could come up with, gamey is not one of them.

 

 

It is gamey, but you don't even want to think about it, you simply want to be in the right. IMHO it's an "artificial" way to increase the adventure day, "sharing injuries", wtf? Anyway, using plural and calling others won't make your opinion shared, just make your arguments look weak.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Uomoz

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

It is gamey, but you don't even want to think about it, you simply want to be in the right. IMHO it's an "artificial" way to increase the adventure day, "sharing injuries", wtf? Anyway, using plural and calling others won't make your opinion shared, just make your arguments look weak.

 

 

LOL. So anything that goes against the current design in PoE from 4th ed like rituals is now gamey. check.

[Uomoz]

Anything? Who said anything. Weak, weak argument skills.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Ah Uomoz. You are a laugh. And it wasn't just me who suggested distribution of health. Even PrimeJunta suggested it even though he didn't know you could do it in 4th ed via a ritual. But it's all too gamey for Uomoz. In fact ALL rituals in 4th ed are gamey. LMFAO.

[Uomoz]

I didn't say anything like that and you write like a mad man. I'm out of this xD.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Oh Uomoz. Bye bye. 

 

Don't use rituals. check. Too gamey. check. Ritual talent banned. check.

[wanderon]

You two should find an arena and just duke it out....

[Sensuki]

This forum could do with less antagonistic arguments, even I've gotten into a couple recently myself. 

[Monte Carlo]

* shrugs * lots of people seem to take attacks on the game personally for some reason. Dunno why.