Josh Sawyer on the "naked ranged characters" issue

[Enoch]

Anyway, the proposed AI adjustments make sense, and I hope it's not too much of a hassle putting them in. The only problem I have is with this one:

AIs should prefer... targets with low Stamina

No. I'm not a big fan of ESP-based AI. The enemy shouldn't know how much stamina a character has.

 

I wouldn't say that it requires ESP for a combatant of animal-or-better intelligence to determine that a particular character has taken a beating and could be put out of the fight with a few more blows. 

[Karkarov]

I think you're still not seeing exactly what he's saying. Yes, a character in heavy armor gets a ton less actions (33% less, to be precise) than a naked character. The point is that the effectiveness of DT scales with the number of attacks you receive. So if you're fighting 5 guys, and each of them is attacking you once every 3 seconds, that's 50 times in 30 seconds that your DT procs. If your DT is 10, that's 500 damage prevented. Versus only 5 actions lost by you (15 for unarmored in 30 seconds - 10 for heavy armored assuming not dual-wielding). Which is (ballparking here) about 75 damage lost (assuming 15 damage average on a hit).

 

The effectiveness of DT scales with the number of enemies you're fighting, while the penalty scales linearly since you can only actively attack one enemy at a time. So if a character is going to take a lot of hits from a lot of different targets, higher DT is insanely beneficial in terms of preventing damage. My numbers are really rough, but hopefully they demonstrate the point - if you're engaging 1 guy at one time, then yeah you get more damage from being unarmored than you prevent with high DT. But if you're engaging 5 guys... you can only hit one guy at a time, but they can all hit you. That DT acts on every attack. Which is why (even though it needs some tweaks) the armor system does at least incentivize armor for tanks.

I understand what he is saying fine, I am just saying DT is not clear enough yet and it has a definite diminishing return.  Example.  I had my fight MC solo the wolves, what I never told you is that in his breastplate he never took more than 2 damage the whole fight.  If I had been wearing full plate I would likely have never taken more than 1 damage per hit, but it would have taken me at least 10-20 seconds longer to end the fight and in actuality I likely would have taken slightly more damage from plate because it would have taken longer to kill them.

 

When the enemies are already doing minimum damage to you there is no reason to pack on more DT.  It isn't like damage, there is definitely a point where stacking more is pointless.  Trust me if anyone on this forum understands tanking... it is me.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Karkarov

[Tartantyco]

You're assuming a bit too much based on an individual encounter with a specific enemy type in a beta undergoing balancing, Karkarov. Do you really think most enemies will do minimum damage against heavy armor? Do they now? No. This is like judging combat difficulty in Baldur's Gate based on Gibberling encounters.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

MOAR JOSH: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/96797312221/so-after-examining-poes-health-stamina-system-it

 

melnorme said: So, after examining PoE's health/stamina system, it dawns on me that "damage spread" has changed from a tactical to a strategic concern. In AD&D, if your tank got beat up badly in a fight, you could heal him, and he could just keep on tanking until you ran out of healing resources. In PoE, since you can't heal him, you have to make sure he doesn't get hit too hard over the long term. So, his reliability as a tank is diminished and other characters must be ready to fill that role. Intentional?

 

Damage spread isn’t really being “spread” right now due to how AI targeting works, but our system has similar underpinnings to healing surges in 4E.  In both the scenarios you’re describing, healing is a strategic concern.  In AD&D and 3.X, you were limited by healing resources, typically from a cleric or (rarely) a druid.  You still didn’t want anyone to take too much damage over time since the healer would have to continually dump his or her limited spells into the characters to keep moving.

 

In 4E and PoE, clerics/priests serve more of a tactical function than a strategic function.  Outside of combat, 4E characters can use their own surges without needing a dedicated healer.  Within combat, they usually either need to use Second Wind or have a surge triggered by a cleric or similar healing character.  But even if a cleric triggers a surge (e.g. via Healing Word), it’s the targeted character that’s using it, not the cleric.  4E clerics sprinkle a little extra healing on top of the surge, but the surge is typically doing the majority of the healing.  Much more than in AD&D or 3.X, you don’t need a dedicated healer in 4E in a strategic sense — though they can be incredibly valuable, tactically.

 

For defense-oriented characters — both in PoE and 4E — their defensive abilities and their HP/surges/Health are their resources.  They have high HP/Stamina/Health because they’re intended to take the lion’s share of damage.  Everyone needs HP to keep moving, but when a defender runs out, the line of defense drops.  PoE’s AI targeting currently dogpiles on the nearest available target, so if you send your fighter forward, he or she is going to suffer significantly more than a 4E defender would (assuming the DM didn’t just have everyone dogpile).

 

I think that when the AI targeting improves, damage will spread out more.  Additionally, I think all the front line characters need to have their health set up more like the barbarian with Thick-Skinned.  After all, in 4E, surges are proportional to total health, but even so, the front line classes have more surges to burn every day.  E.g. wizards have 6 base surges and fighters have 9.  4E characters also get more surges the higher their Con, so it’s not uncommon for a front-line character have almost twice as much personal healing potential.

 

 

LOL.

 

Josh talking about healing surges and 4th ed. This is a huge WTF to me. For instance, Josh says this "For defense-oriented characters — both in PoE and 4E — their defensive abilities and their HP/surges/Health are their resources."

 

Bold emphasis with 'both' and 'surges'. There are no surges in PoE. In fact, there is no healing at all in PoE other than an extended rest. So while he's going on about healing surges, it means nothing unless there is some equivalent in PoE which there isn't. And your adventuring day is short in PoE and why in 4th ed you can continue with encounters because you have healing. His whole post just comes across as some marketing spiel.

 

And this is coming from a 4th ed pnp player who's played for years. It seems when Josh speaks, people feel warm and fuzzy and everything is right with the world.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

AIs should prefer... targets with low Stamina

 

No. I'm not a big fan of ESP-based AI. The enemy shouldn't know how much stamina a character has.

 

Good point Stun. How does the enemy know who has low stamina?

[GreyFox]

I'm not really a fan of the health/stamina system...not sure why just regular health/healing isn't good enough.

 

I really wonder what the idea/hope was for that because it seems like a terribly unnecessary thing just to say "oh it's tied into the game world"....to that I say untie it as there is no way the lore on that is so great that it would suffer from a change, especially since you can full heal by sleeping for 8 hours....

 

The power of rest bests magic in this world....I mean I've heard of take a nap and you'll feel better but damn man If I'm down to 1hp(near death) all I have to do is go night night and I'm all better? I gotta hear the story behind this(lore in game) and I hope to be super impressed with the reason. 

Edited September 7, 2014 by GreyFox

[Ink Blot]

Yep pretty much as thought, wait till those stone beetles use their burrow to pop up in your back line and take a big bite of naked mage flesh. Proper targeting of that nature will make the encounters alot more interesting, would you leave your front line dealing with the wood beetles and poison while your back line takes some damage or will you pull them back to distract the stone beetles and thus allow the wood beetles to get closer and try attacking all the unpoisoned characters?

Just as Stun dislikes ESP-enabled AI (as do I), I also dislike creatures with insect-like intelligence acting as if they're sentient beings. So beetles targeting the mage in the back row because he's unarmored and squishy... no. Just no.

[anameforobsidian]

 

 

AIs should prefer... targets with low Stamina

 

No. I'm not a big fan of ESP-based AI. The enemy shouldn't know how much stamina a character has.

 

Good point Stun. How does the enemy know who has low stamina?

 

 

Because someone with low stamina would be panting, sweating, exhaling heavily, bleeding etc.  Exhaustion and fear leave signs that are detectable for virtually every sense.

 

 

4e combat is better than 3e combat... if you play with figurines on a grid with battlefield features also on it. If you're pure PnP, with combat done purely by description, it stinks. AD&D and 3e OTOH work just as well that way as on a grid.

 

The main problem of 4e is that it fails as a role-playing game. The previous editions are mechanically rubbish, but at least they do support role-playing, and especially 3e even lets you create character concepts somewhat flexibly with the multiclassing rules, if you're not too concerned about minmaxing. If you drop most of the arbitrary requirements for prestige classes and feats, it allows a quite a bit of player freedom, making it almost serviceable. But for PnP groups who are in it primarily for the roleplaying 4e is an abject failure.

This was my experience as well. I ran 4th edition about a year before switching to Pathfinder. Noone complained about the combat mechanics. Rather it was people complaining that there was no more straightforward and simple class, like the fighter. There was no more super complex class like the mage. Everything was more or less the same. Skills and their use seemed more watered down. Balance is fine and good, but not at the cost of character and atmosphere.

 

 

I DM a 4E campaign and ran three others.  The point that there are no more super simple classes is true.  The idea that all the classes are the same is completely and totally false.  

 

Even two of the basic healing classes, Shaman and Cleric, play dramatically differently.  Clerics focus on straight up heals and some direct damage.  They have some pretty significant bonuses to single target healing, especially in early game.  Shamans have a spirit companion that's the bases of all their buffs; they teleport all over the battlefield, base all the buffs off proximity to the spirit companion, heal as areas of effect, and do significant buffs with a focus on teleportation.

 

Let's see, then there's wild magic sorcerers; who have 80 million special additions to their spells based on the die roll, the stage of the moon, and whether you see the same color blue that I see.  Even in the same class, illusionists play entirely differently from evoker types.  Psionicists make a ton of temporary traps and automatic attackers over the board, oh and they have a power that lets them summon "any" non-magical item for a day with weight limits.  My DMs never let me psionicists, because it was too easy to break the game.

 

The constant, constant, constant bitching about 4E classes being the same normally comes down to the same garbage criticisms:

People never tried the circuitous and relatively hidden, but surprisingly usable dual-classing rules.

People want quadratic mages or ubermensch clerics back.  Why even have classes then?  PnP Skyrim would work just as well.  

People only played it for a little bit, or not at all.

People want to look through 500 sourcebooks so they can make their own version of pun-pun.

 

 

Yeah there's plenty of areas 4E falls down, but class variety isn't one of them.

Edited September 7, 2014 by anameforobsidian

[Hiro Protagionist II]

I'm obviously not referring to  direct port. One does not simply port a tabletop into a videogame. But the core ideas (healing independence/tactical resource + daily/encounter/at-will powers) is very much present in PoE. It's undeniable that 4th ed is the Dnd system that influenced this game the most. 

 

EDIT: a lot of the people that talk **** about the 4th simply haven't played it or are way too anchored to older versions to really appreciate the amazing combat system they put up. The main issue with 4th is the sheer focus on combat rules compared to role rules. That said me and all my group (up to 10 players) completely agree that the 4th edition combats were BY FAR the best we've had in our long DnD career. Combat enjoyment is on a whole new level compared to 3rd simplicity (move-baseattack-pass).

 

No. The core ideas from 4th ed isn't very much present in PoE. Quite the opposite, Josh has cherry picked some parts of 4th ed and it feels like some quasi-abomination of 4th ed. One of those core designs that's been ignored is healing your health. And it was very much dependent and strategic in 4th ed. So much that the level 1 ritual 'Comrade's Succor' is a game changer and extends your adventuring day even more.

 

And this is coming from a player who hasn't just played 4th ed for years but also played Lair assault encounters as well. PoE would improve ten fold if healing is introduced into it.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

 

 

AIs should prefer... targets with low Stamina

 

No. I'm not a big fan of ESP-based AI. The enemy shouldn't know how much stamina a character has.

 

Good point Stun. How does the enemy know who has low stamina?

 

 

Because someone with low stamina would be panting, sweating, exhaling heavily, bleeding etc.  Exhaustion and fear leave signs that are detectable for virtually every sense.

 

Okay you edited your post. I liked your 4th ed spiel but this I have an issue with.

 

So when you take a nice leisurely relaxed stroll to Medreths group in the town, the enemy knows by panting, sweating, exhaling heavily, bleeding etc? Nope, you are NOT panting, sweating, exhaling heavily, bleeding etc. when you take that nice relaxed stroll to Medreth's group or any other enemies when I'm on full health and not exhausted in any way.

 

Also, my ranged characters are on full health and look healthy while my front line fighter looks bloodied. And you want me to believe the enemy won't go after the bloodied half dead character for an easy kill?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Karkarov]

You're assuming a bit too much based on an individual encounter with a specific enemy type in a beta undergoing balancing, Karkarov. Do you really think most enemies will do minimum damage against heavy armor? Do they now? No. This is like judging combat difficulty in Baldur's Gate based on Gibberling encounters.

Actually I could easily solo most encounters in the beta with BB Fighter.  Most of the enemies deal physical only damage, the only enemies he has real trouble with are the ones who do dots or cast spells.  Two things no amount of DT will do anything to assist with.  Don't get me wrong, he will need a rest pretty fast doing it all alone, but he can still do it.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Karkarov

[Uomoz]

 

I'm obviously not referring to  direct port. One does not simply port a tabletop into a videogame. But the core ideas (healing independence/tactical resource + daily/encounter/at-will powers) is very much present in PoE. It's undeniable that 4th ed is the Dnd system that influenced this game the most. 

 

EDIT: a lot of the people that talk **** about the 4th simply haven't played it or are way too anchored to older versions to really appreciate the amazing combat system they put up. The main issue with 4th is the sheer focus on combat rules compared to role rules. That said me and all my group (up to 10 players) completely agree that the 4th edition combats were BY FAR the best we've had in our long DnD career. Combat enjoyment is on a whole new level compared to 3rd simplicity (move-baseattack-pass).

 

No. The core ideas from 4th ed isn't very much present in PoE. Quite the opposite, Josh has cherry picked some parts of 4th ed and it feels like some quasi-abomination of 4th ed. One of those core designs that's been ignored is healing your health. And it was very much dependent and strategic in 4th ed. So much that the level 1 ritual 'Comrade's Succor' is a game changer and extends your adventuring day even more.

 

And this is coming from a player who hasn't just played 4th ed for years but also played Lair assault encounters as well. PoE would improve ten fold if healing is introduced into it.

 

 

Q"uasi-abomination of 4th ed"? Damn you doomsayers, get your priorities straight. Re: You do heal your health in this game, it's called stamina. It serves the same purpose, while the health value is just a tool to limit the adventuring day. Gamey solutions like the ritual you cited are horrible ideas imho, there are already ways to "fix" your issue even right now in the unpolished beta, for example by spreading the damage. Oh and btw, straight healing is one of those things that are widely used in MMORPGs (those hated things!) to enforce the healer/dps/tank rule even more. The less is prominent and necessary, the more it allows varied gameplay.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Q"uasi-abomination of 4th ed"? Damn you doomsayers, get your priorities straight. Re: You do heal your health in this game, it's called stamina. It serves the same purpose, while the health value is just a tool to limit the adventuring day. Gamey solutions like the ritual you cited are horrible ideas imho, there are already ways to "fix" your issue even right now in the unpolished beta, for example by spreading the damage. Oh and btw, straight healing is one of those things that are widely used in MMORPGs (those hated things!) to enforce the healer/dps/tank rule even more. The less is prominent and necessary, the more it allows varied gameplay.

 

 

You even said 4th ed combat system is amazing. It's not just simple hit and spell, it's everything else including healing your health. And the stamina/health mechanic is a very poor substitute for what's in 4th ed. In fact it has nothing to do with 4th ed.

 

And LOL at the ritual being gamey. You praise PoE because it takes stuff from 4th ed and when someone else who plays 4th ed says it would be better with other things like a ritual and goes against the current design of PoE, you call it gamey. 

 

Yeah Uomoz. We get you like the current system in PoE and we get you like 4th ed. But please don't make up BS like taking 'core' stuff from 4th ed when it doesn't.

[Endrosz]

When I GM a pen-and-paper role-playing session, I use a green-yellow-red indicator system in combat to show how damaged the participants are. Green is okay (>66%), yellow is seriously damaged (33-66%), red is close to death (<33%). This system is in use for both the enemies and party members, players can ask me to know the "color" status of an enemy and the enemies use this information too most of the time.  It is very visible whether you're okay or bleeding profusely and staggering on your feet. Animals, which are considered low intelligence, most certainly go for a damaged prey or opponent over an undamaged one. The only exceptions are mindless undead, automatons, jellies, and such, they just go for the closest.

 

If using this info is considered ESP, then I suggest removing the stamina indicators from enemies, because player make use of this info all the time. Party members are also non-ESP, right? Imagine the butthurt if they did remove it...

[Uomoz]

 

Yeah Uomoz. We get you like the current system in PoE and we get you like 4th ed. But please don't make up BS like taking 'core' stuff from 4th ed when it doesn't.

 

 

We who? Jeez xD. 

 

BTW, not all of 4th is great, for example some talents are straight up OP or bad design (the ritual talents for example are utter **** and we banned them altogether). The health system in PoE is way closer to 4th then 3rd/2nd and don't try to convince me that it isn't, because it's undeniable. Dooooooommmmsayingggggg

Edited September 7, 2014 by Uomoz

[Monte Carlo]

Wouldn't it be refreshing for Sawyer to say, just once, "well, it seems a lot of people aren't enjoying this and maybe I'm wrong."

 

And then hell froze over.

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah, just like we always do here on the forums.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

When I GM a pen-and-paper role-playing session, I use a green-yellow-red indicator system in combat to show how damaged the participants are. Green is okay (>66%), yellow is seriously damaged (33-66%), red is close to death (<33%). This system is in use for both the enemies and party members, players can ask me to know the "color" status of an enemy and the enemies use this information too most of the time.  It is very visible whether you're okay or bleeding profusely and staggering on your feet. Animals, which are considered low intelligence, most certainly go for a damaged prey or opponent over an undamaged one. The only exceptions are mindless undead, automatons, jellies, and such, they just go for the closest.

 

If using this info is considered ESP, then I suggest removing the stamina indicators from enemies, because player make use of this info all the time. Party members are also non-ESP, right? Imagine the butthurt if they did remove it...

 

Ah, so you agree then that intelligent enemies should go after your half dead bloodied Fighter on 50% health and 100% stamina than your full health/stamina ranged companions, due to being an easy kill?

 

That's not what is being proposed. What's being proposed is you may have encounters where the enemy A.I. sees your full health/stamina ranged character having marginally less stamina (say 145hps) than your front line fighter who's bloodied on 50% health but also on full stamina (say 150hps), then the A.I. will go after the ranged character.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Hiro Protagonist II]

We who? Jeez xD. 

 

BTW, not all of 4th is great, for example some talents are straight up OP or bad design (the ritual talents for example are utter **** and we banned them altogether). The health system in PoE is way closer to 4th then 3rd/2nd and don't try to convince me that it isn't, because it's undeniable. Dooooooommmmsayingggggg

 

 

Nope. Nothing at all like 4th ed. You criticise people on this forum saying to them you haven't played it or too anchored in other systems. I come on who does play it and say it's nothing like it at all and then you go all doomsayer as if that's some retort. LMAO. And we're not talking talents either so nice deflection.

[Uomoz]

 

We who? Jeez xD. 

 

BTW, not all of 4th is great, for example some talents are straight up OP or bad design (the ritual talents for example are utter **** and we banned them altogether). The health system in PoE is way closer to 4th then 3rd/2nd and don't try to convince me that it isn't, because it's undeniable. Dooooooommmmsayingggggg

 

 

Nope. Nothing at all like 4th ed. You criticise people on this forum saying to them you haven't played it or too anchored in other systems. I come on who does play it and say it's nothing like it at all and then you go all doomsayer as if that's some retort. LMAO. And we're not talking talents either so nice deflection.

 

 

 

So you are actually saying this system doesn't resemble 4th. With the encounter/daily/will powers, and Sawyer that talks about PoE and 4th in the same post. Also I don't quite understand your posts, the grammar is all messed up.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

So you are actually saying this system doesn't resemble 4th. With the encounter/daily/will powers, and Sawyer that talks about PoE and 4th in the same post. Also I don't quite understand your posts, the grammar is all messed up.

 

Nice deflection Uomoz. I'm not talking about encounter, at will or daily powers. I'm talking about healing and health. And I did say Josh has cherry picked stuff from 4th ed. Healing of health not being one of them, unless you count the extended rest which is not only for 4th ed.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Uomoz]

 

So you are actually saying this system doesn't resemble 4th. With the encounter/daily/will powers, and Sawyer that talks about PoE and 4th in the same post. Also I don't quite understand your posts, the grammar is all messed up.

 

Nice deflection Uomoz. I'm not talking about encounter, at will or daily powers. I'm talking about healing and health. And I did say Josh has cherry picked stuff from 4th ed. Healing of health not being one of them, unless you count the extended rest which is not only for 4th ed.

 

 

 

Wow it's not a direct port, what a surprise! But it's still way more similar to 4th then 3rd, ain't it? Not impressed, mr.Hiro, not impressed.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Wow it's not a direct port, what a surprise! But it's still way more similar to 4th then 3rd, ain't it? Not impressed, mr.Hiro, not impressed.

 

Nope, not a direct port and nothing like 4th ed either with the exception of some cherry picked stuff like at will and encounter powers. I thought there were healing potions and healing spells in 4th ed that healed your health? You must be playing another 4th ed to me. Looks at players handbook, yep, there's healing potions and healing spells in there. Looks at PoE, nope none of that here.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Uomoz]

 

Wow it's not a direct port, what a surprise! But it's still way more similar to 4th then 3rd, ain't it? Not impressed, mr.Hiro, not impressed.

 

Nope, not a direct port and nothing like 4th ed either with the exception of some cherry picked stuff like at will and encounter powers. I thought there were healing potions and healing spells in 4th ed that healed your health? You must be playing another 4th ed to me. Looks at players handbook, yep, there's healing potions and healing spells in there. Looks at PoE, nope none of that here.

 

 

 

There are potions in PoE, facepalm. Maybe you didn't read my posts (what a surprise!) I stated that the DnD health is not PoE's health, it's the stamina. Maybe the game would help you by changing the name of stamina to health? Herp.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

There are potions in PoE, facepalm. Maybe you didn't read my posts (what a surprise!) I stated that the DnD health is not PoE's health, it's the stamina. Maybe the game would help you by changing the name of stamina to health? Herp.

 

Nope, don't need a name change. Just need more from that wonderful 4th ed system that you love, like healing spells and healing potions that heal your health in this game. And 4th ed rituals.. oh wait that's too gamey for you. herp derp.

 

Also, I wasn't aware that in 4th ed, every attack hits. Both you and enemies hit every time.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II