Josh Sawyer on the "naked ranged characters" issue

[Tartantyco]

Not everything sawyer said was the end of the world but seriously, why are we defending a system promoting naked fighting even in limited encounters? Only the most primitive tribes fight this way. There is no good reason to go around naked.

 

Are you really getting tripped up over this? It's a purely cosmetic issue. Add default clothing, soblem prolved. Fighting without armor has been pretty much standard throughout history, especially for ranged troops.

[mutonizer]

 

 

Are you really getting tripped up over this? It's a purely cosmetic issue. Add default clothing, soblem prolved. Fighting without armor has been pretty much standard throughout history, especially for ranged troops.

Not default clothing, an entire line of clothing items.

[Zansatsu]

 

Not everything sawyer said was the end of the world but seriously, why are we defending a system promoting naked fighting even in limited encounters? Only the most primitive tribes fight this way. There is no good reason to go around naked.

 

Are you really getting tripped up over this? It's a purely cosmetic issue. Add default clothing, soblem prolved. Fighting without armor has been pretty much standard throughout history, especially for ranged troops.

 

Not confused at all. A leather shirt and pants, AKA light armor would effect attack speed in practically no way.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Zansatsu

[Tartantyco]

Not default clothing, an entire line of clothing items.

 

Sure. There should probably be separate slots for purely cosmetic clothing, but the flesh-colored wood shavings would have to go regardless. It's just weird.

 

Not confused at all. A leather shirt and pants, IE light armor would effect attack speed in practically no way.

 

I didn't say you were confused. I said you were getting tripped up over it. As in, you're hinging your opposition on a purely cosmetic issue.

[Zansatsu]

 

Not default clothing, an entire line of clothing items.

 

Sure. There should probably be separate slots for purely cosmetic clothing, but the flesh-colored wood shavings would have to go regardless. It's just weird.

 

Not confused at all. A leather shirt and pants, IE light armor would effect attack speed in practically no way.

 

I didn't say you were confused. I said you were getting tripped up over it. As in, you're hinging your opposition on a purely cosmetic issue.

 

Well it can't be purely cosmetic when light armor affects attack speed can it.

[Tartantyco]

Well it can't be purely cosmetic when light armor affects attack speed can it.

 

Don't move the goalposts around. This is the quote I replied to:

 

 why are we defending a system promoting naked fighting even in limited encounters? Only the most primitive tribes fight this way. There is no good reason to go around naked.

 

 

We're not talking about light armor.

[Zansatsu]

Fair point I was not clear at all. I was talking about light armor.

[tjorb]

I am disappointed in Sawyer's response. The issue is that there is no reason for ranged characters to use armor and If the only solution that they come up with is to make AI better and target weaker targets depending on the encounter, it's only gonna solve it for that specific encounter. The rest of the time half my party will be running around naked.

The problem for me personally isn't that they arent wearing armor, it is that they aren't wearing clothes and this ruins immersion.
Even robes have a penalty and they hardly offer any protection so why would anyone use them?

[Matt516]

Hiro, Uomoz - take it to pm. Your bickering has ceased to be productive for anyone.

[PrimeJunta]

Funnily enough, there's plenty of precedent for going into battle naked, and not just among 'primitive tribes.'

[wanderon]

Funnily enough, there's plenty of precedent for going into battle naked, and not just among 'primitive tribes.'

 

My ex and I did it all the time.... well before she became my ex...

[prodigydancer]

I am disappointed in Sawyer's response. The issue is that there is no reason for ranged characters to use armor and If the only solution that they come up with is to make AI better and target weaker targets depending on the encounter, it's only gonna solve it for that specific encounter. The rest of the time half my party will be running around naked.

I think it'll be much more than just one encounter. AI scripts have to be more or less consistent throughout the game. Writing and debugging them on per-encounter basis takes too much time.

 

Still, I can see why people aren't happy with how armor works right now. Having to equip different sets for different fights is MMOish and isn't something I'm personally looking forward to in PoE. Neither is naked fighting. Wearing armor of a reasonable grade (maybe something very light for ranged characters) should always be a boon, not a burden.

Edited September 7, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Shevek]

Even robes have a penalty and they hardly offer any protection so why would anyone use them?

Enchantments?

[Ink Blot]

Enchantments?

 

Enchantments!

[tjorb]

I think it'll be much more than just one encounter. AI scripts have to be more or less consistent throughout the game. Writing and debugging them on per-encounter basis takes too much time.

 

 

Still, I can see why people aren't happy with how armor works right now. Having to equip different sets for different fights is MMOish and isn't something I'm personally looking forward to in PoE. Neither is naked fighting. Wearing armor of a reasonable grade (maybe something very light for ranged characters) should always be a boon, not a burden.

 

All enemies won't have the same AI scripts and all fights won't be the same obviously. Even if the AI always went for your ranged characters that would be a problem in and of itself.

It doesn't sound very fun either.

 

 

 

 

Even robes have a penalty and they hardly offer any protection so why would anyone use them?

Enchantments?

 

They would have to be some good enchantments to weigh up that recovery penalty.

Edited September 7, 2014 by tjorb

[anameforobsidian]

 

 

 

 

 

4e combat is better than 3e combat... if you play with figurines on a grid with battlefield features also on it. If you're pure PnP, with combat done purely by description, it stinks. AD&D and 3e OTOH work just as well that way as on a grid.

 

The main problem of 4e is that it fails as a role-playing game. The previous editions are mechanically rubbish, but at least they do support role-playing, and especially 3e even lets you create character concepts somewhat flexibly with the multiclassing rules, if you're not too concerned about minmaxing. If you drop most of the arbitrary requirements for prestige classes and feats, it allows a quite a bit of player freedom, making it almost serviceable. But for PnP groups who are in it primarily for the roleplaying 4e is an abject failure.

This was my experience as well. I ran 4th edition about a year before switching to Pathfinder. Noone complained about the combat mechanics. Rather it was people complaining that there was no more straightforward and simple class, like the fighter. There was no more super complex class like the mage. Everything was more or less the same. Skills and their use seemed more watered down. Balance is fine and good, but not at the cost of character and atmosphere.

 

 

I DM a 4E campaign and ran three others.  The point that there are no more super simple classes is true.  The idea that all the classes are the same is completely and totally false.  

 

Even two of the basic healing classes, Shaman and Cleric, play dramatically differently.  Clerics focus on straight up heals and some direct damage.  They have some pretty significant bonuses to single target healing, especially in early game.  Shamans have a spirit companion that's the bases of all their buffs; they teleport all over the battlefield, base all the buffs off proximity to the spirit companion, heal as areas of effect, and do significant buffs with a focus on teleportation.

 

Let's see, then there's wild magic sorcerers; who have 80 million special additions to their spells based on the die roll, the stage of the moon, and whether you see the same color blue that I see.  Even in the same class, illusionists play entirely differently from evoker types.  Psionicists make a ton of temporary traps and automatic attackers over the board, oh and they have a power that lets them summon "any" non-magical item for a day with weight limits.  My DMs never let me psionicists, because it was too easy to break the game.

 

The constant, constant, constant bitching about 4E classes being the same normally comes down to the same garbage criticisms:

People never tried the circuitous and relatively hidden, but surprisingly usable dual-classing rules.

People want quadratic mages or ubermensch clerics back.  Why even have classes then?  PnP Skyrim would work just as well.  

People only played it for a little bit, or not at all.

People want to look through 500 sourcebooks so they can make their own version of pun-pun.

 

 

Yeah there's plenty of areas 4E falls down, but class variety isn't one of them.

 

I was playing with a group mixing very experienced players with a bunch of newcomers. The newcomers found the classes a bit overwhelming in the beginning. No class in 4E compares with the simplicity of a 3.5E Fighter or Barbarian. The experienced players complained that they were limited on what they could do outside of combat. For example, however useless spells like animal messanger, major image, or augury might seem for a CRPG, they could be used very creatively outside of combat. Things like these disappearing were upsetting people. And sorry, no 4E class plays like the 3.5 E wizard who has a bevvy of spells in his spellbook and must decide what would be useful to learn in advance for a situation. We played for a year, so your attempts to put my group into one of your "people who" category just isn't correct.

 

 

Gosh, if only there were similar abilities to animal messenger, major image, or augury in 4E.  If only there were some way for wizards to prepare their spells in advance from a pool larger than what they could use.

Edited September 8, 2014 by anameforobsidian