Josh Sawyer on the "naked ranged characters" issue

[Karkarov]

I like this post and sure AI will make a huge difference.  Like Indira though I still think the armor needs some retooling.  The plate speed penalty is what 50% for example?  An attack action that normally takes 2 seconds now takes 3.  Not huge?  Really?  Over the course of one minute AKA 60 seconds that is a difference of 10 actions.  Over the course of an hour?  600 actions.  The 4 more DT on plate is not worth the 20% more speed loss over say a breastplate even if you are a tank.  That's just my opinion though.

 

So while AI definitely needs work the armor system needs adjustment as well, as does the damage ratios cause guys with 10-15 DT taking like 1-2 damage from a hit is pretty crappy.

 

Also as for dissing the devs... drop it guys.  Seriously they were in germany, probably still adjusting to the time shift, adam looked like he hadn't slept in 48 hours, and there was all the con stuff going on and distractions.  Plus there is the ever present back of your mind issue "I am being filmed, hundreds or thousands of people might see this, don't screw up...." which of course only makes it easier to mess up.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Karkarov

[Uomoz]

And? They were demoing the game, not playing. The fact is: you can win the whole beta, using the game rest rules. Its doable, especially on easy. Why on earth should you feel compelled to rest 20 times? Play efficiently. Also, the numbers needs to be tweaked, that's obvious.

[mutonizer]

An example of this would be reloading until one is not interrupted by enemies while attempting to rest in the IE games.

 

To which I always retort: "so the hell what?"

With this mentality you end up focusing all your attention on trying to prevent players from doing anything, instead of actually having any "spirit of the game" whatsoever, giving you at the end of the day nothing but a series of completely artificial, illogical and disconnected mechanics.

 

Health/Stamina, Camping supplies, Stealth mechanic, Skills mechanics, Stash, Crafting, Enchanting, Character building, Combat lockouts (etc), all seemingly designed to "prevent degenerative game-play" and end up looking as if nobody even stopped to ask if they're worth a dime or have any reason to exist in the first place.

• No magical healing in this world...oh but just rest 8 hours and it's 100% fine.
• You want to rest and can carry an infinite amount of items? Yea sure but sorry, only 2 camping supplies.
• Magic's really coming from your soul, Might is really your Soul's power...but yea, we had to up them Ogres and Beetles Might because otherwise they just can't damage a wet towel really...
• Don't worry you can carry as much as you want and put items into your stash anytime....but you cannot take them out.
• Anyone can Craft and Enchant stuff on the fly, and I mean anyone because "no bad builds!"....that's right, even random peasant can craft magical stuff out thin air! All magic comes from the Soul you say? Well, not for crafting or enchanting and certainly not for potion making!
• You can stealth, but the more you can stealth, the less you can stealth! Unless of course everyone else sucks at stealthing, then you're great at stealthing IF you're with them, because if you're alone, you really suck at stealthing...And even then, don't worry, we've blocked EVERY SINGLE PATH out there, so you won't be able to ever stealth past anything anyway....because we all saw how THAT turned out in "other" games!

And the list goes on...and on..and on...

 

 

Don't take the above the wrong way...it's just...Where's the "spirit of the game" in all that? Where's the cohesion..where's the immersion...

[Sensuki]

Yeah the action speed is definitely slower than their target range (mid level IE games play)

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

I've been doing videos of the same encounters with different classes, I have improved since my first video but the amount of Health lost after the first few beetle encounters on Hard doesn't vary all that much, due to the normalized damage output of the game. I can kill the beetles a little bit faster, but they're still dishing out roughly the same amount of damage every time.

 

This normalized damage output of the game and slight variations in how fast the same encounters take certainly show that this way of balancing doesn't help one bit. I'd very much prefer a system that your party could come out of those beetles almost scathe free in one playthrough, and almost get wiped out the next, and this based on the skill of the player, and also on our very own RNG gods, to an extent.

Edited September 6, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Uomoz]

Indira, that's such a stupid idea. RNG gods? What the hell? The more control the better, what are you talking about? Crits and all are ok, but the scenario you describe is mind boggling.

[Sensuki]

The encounter will actually be easier in the final game because you'll have good loot.

[Tartantyco]

 

It's the weekend. Apparently he can't access the forums from home or something.

 

That was the issue since I came to these forums, I think it's about time he fixes that. For petes sake he sees the guy who made this forum every day...

 

I'm pretty sure it's so he can retain his sanity by not spending the weekend on these forums.

[Sarex]

Indira, that's such a stupid idea. RNG gods? What the hell? The more control the better, what are you talking about? Crits and all are ok, but the scenario you describe is mind boggling.

 

There is something to be said for chance, there is a reason Casinos are so successful.

 

I'm pretty sure it's so he can retain his sanity by not spending the weekend on these forums.

 

Then at least have the decency to not lie. Say "You are all toxic ****s I can be bothered to read this ****" and be done with it.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sarex

[IndiraLightfoot]

Indira, that's such a stupid idea. RNG gods? What the hell? The more control the better, what are you talking about? Crits and all are ok, but the scenario you describe is mind boggling.

Sorry. I'm a huge fan of player skill, but I'm also a big fan of dice rolls and PnP. In fact, it's very entertaining in a CRPG as well. I'm not that fond of totally reliable outcomes, I want uncertainties, crits, and critical misses, fumbles, mixed with damage results varied through dice rolls, that's how dorky I am.

Edited September 6, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Tartantyco]

I like this post and sure AI will make a huge difference.  Like Indira though I still think the armor needs some retooling.  The plate speed penalty is what 50% for example?  An attack action that normally takes 2 seconds now takes 3.  Not huge?  Really?  Over the course of one minute AKA 60 seconds that is a difference of 10 actions.  Over the course of an hour?  600 actions.  The 4 more DT on plate is not worth the 20% more speed loss over say a breastplate even if you are a tank.  That's just my opinion though.

 

You're missing a pretty important part of the equation here, though: Incoming damage.

 

By virtue of being a tank, that character will generally take on more enemies. More enemies means more incoming damage. The DT will affect every single one of those incoming attacks, whereas an attack speed increase will only affect that character's damage output. I think you will quickly find that greater DT avoids a hell of a lot more damage to the tank, than an increase in attack speed will affect damage output.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

And? They were demoing the game, not playing. The fact is: you can win the whole beta, using the game rest rules. Its doable, especially on easy. Why on earth should you feel compelled to rest 20 times? Play efficiently. Also, the numbers needs to be tweaked, that's obvious.

 

Rose appears to be playing it and she was playing on easy. Rested twice. And nobody is saying they feel compelled to rest 20 times.

 

The devs were doing demos at conventions. After wiping on the beetles I am pretty sure they were playing it incredibly safe. They want to ensure that players see spells/abilities, skills, scripted scenes, dialogue, and the entire ogre quest chain. They didn't turn on a god mode which many FPS demos at the conventions do. Anyway, they were playing to show the game, but not trying to show the best of the best in terms of tactics. I wouldn't use them, or the demos, as a basis for how to play the game well. Just my 2cp

 

There was very little scripted scenes and dialogue (quest giver), and just getting on playing the game and getting to the ogre when Rose played it and she played it on easy. She just played the Dyrfrord Crossing map and the ogre cave. First encounter 2 beetles, second encounter 2 beetles. Rested after 4 enemies. Third encounter encounter 1 Spider, fourth encounter 1 spider at ogre cave entrance. Fifth encounter 2 spiders. Rested again after 4 enemies. And then went to the ogre.

 

I thought Rose did pretty good. The fact is she had to rest twice because her fighter was on half health after 4 enemies both times. No doubt she's played it a few times since she knew where to go and avoid all the trash mobs and get on with getting to the ogre. What surprised me is resting so much.

 

But obviously according to some people, she's just like us noobs and needs to l2p and work out more efficient ways of combat.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Infinitron]

Ways to prevent damage in Pillars of Eternity:

 

1) Find a chokepoint, so only a few enemies can get to you at a time. Disadvantage: You might only have room for one or two of your own characters in the chokepoint, which means they'll take a disproportionate amount of health damage.

 

2) Use more ranged characters. Disadvantage: Melee characters take a disproportionate amount of health damage.

 

3) Be aggressive - focus fire, so that enemies are taken down as quickly as possible. Disadvantage: Melee can be come a cluster****, leaving your characters more vulnerable to the attacks of other enemies.

 

4) Cast buffs on your party and debuffs on the enemy, so that the enemy is more likely to graze/miss you. Disadvantage: You could be using that time to cast a damage spell instead and end the fight sooner.

 

5) Wear heavier armor. Disadvantage: You'll attack slower, losing attacks you could have used to to end the fight sooner.

 

6) Find and equip items that boost Deflection. No obvious disadvantage here, although you might be giving up on items that let you attack better instead.

 

All in all, it's a pretty complex set of decisions! There is no must-have risk-free damage avoidance stat like Dexterity/AC in D&D. Although I suspect Deflection boosting items will be very valuable indeed...

Edited September 6, 2014 by Infinitron

[Ganrich]

Ways to prevent damage in Pillars of Eternity:

 

1) Find a chokepoint, so only a few enemies can get to you at a time. Disadvantage: You might only have room for one or two of your own characters in the chokepoint, which means they'll take a disproportionate amount of health damage.

 

2) Use more ranged characters. Disadvantage: Melee characters take a disproportionate amount of health damage.

 

3) Be aggressive - focus fire, so that enemies are taken down as quickly as possible. Disadvantage: Melee can be come a cluster****, leaving your characters more vulnerable to the attacks of other enemies.

 

4) Cast buffs on your party and debuffs on the enemy, so that the enemy is more likely to graze/miss you. Disadvantage: You could be using that time to cast a damage spell instead and end the fight sooner.

 

5) Wear heavier armor. Disadvantage: You'll attack slower, losing attacks you could have used to to end the fight sooner.

 

6) Find and equip items that boost Deflection. No obvious disadvantage here, although you might be giving up on items that let you attack better instead.

 

All in all, it's a pretty complex set of decisions! There is no must-have risk-free damage avoidance stat like Dexterity/AC in D&D. Although I suspect Deflection boosting items will be very valuable indeed...

This.

 

7). Use CCs effectively. Keep heavy hitters like Wood beetles and their poison away from characters helps as well.

[Karkarov]

The encounter will actually be easier in the final game because you'll have good loot.

Yeah I should have posted the video where I soloed the four beetles with my Cipher after I gave him Justice.  His lash would cause crits and literally one shot the wood beetles and he could two hit the stone beetles even without a crit.

[aeonsim]

Yep pretty much as thought, wait till those stone beetles use their burrow to pop up in your back line and take a big bite of naked mage flesh. Proper targeting of that nature will make the encounters alot more interesting, would you leave your front line dealing with the wood beetles and poison while your back line takes some damage or will you pull them back to distract the stone beetles and thus allow the wood beetles to get closer and try attacking all the unpoisoned characters?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Ways to prevent damage in Pillars of Eternity:

 

1) Find a chokepoint, so only a few enemies can get to you at a time. Disadvantage: You might only have room for one or two of your own characters in the chokepoint, which means they'll take a disproportionate amount of health damage.

 

2) Use more ranged characters. Disadvantage: Melee characters take a disproportionate amount of health damage.

 

 

Have you actually played the beta Infinitron?

 

I'll just leave this with you. Teleporting Spiders

[Ganrich]

I stopped opening combat with damage from my non-tankers and teleporting became a non-issue for the most part. I start damaging enemies with BB fighter (and the PC if specced to be a front liner) and I see teleporting much less frequently.

[Matt516]

 

I like this post and sure AI will make a huge difference.  Like Indira though I still think the armor needs some retooling.  The plate speed penalty is what 50% for example?  An attack action that normally takes 2 seconds now takes 3.  Not huge?  Really?  Over the course of one minute AKA 60 seconds that is a difference of 10 actions.  Over the course of an hour?  600 actions.  The 4 more DT on plate is not worth the 20% more speed loss over say a breastplate even if you are a tank.  That's just my opinion though.

 

You're missing a pretty important part of the equation here, though: Incoming damage.

 

By virtue of being a tank, that character will generally take on more enemies. More enemies means more incoming damage. The DT will affect every single one of those incoming attacks, whereas an attack speed increase will only affect that character's damage output. I think you will quickly find that greater DT avoids a hell of a lot more damage to the tank, than an increase in attack speed will affect damage output.

 

 

Yup.

[Sensuki]

Yeah DT as a Tank is *hugely* valuable.

[Infinitron]

MOAR JOSH: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/96797312221/so-after-examining-poes-health-stamina-system-it

 

melnorme said: So, after examining PoE's health/stamina system, it dawns on me that "damage spread" has changed from a tactical to a strategic concern. In AD&D, if your tank got beat up badly in a fight, you could heal him, and he could just keep on tanking until you ran out of healing resources. In PoE, since you can't heal him, you have to make sure he doesn't get hit too hard over the long term. So, his reliability as a tank is diminished and other characters must be ready to fill that role. Intentional?

 

Damage spread isn’t really being “spread” right now due to how AI targeting works, but our system has similar underpinnings to healing surges in 4E.  In both the scenarios you’re describing, healing is a strategic concern.  In AD&D and 3.X, you were limited by healing resources, typically from a cleric or (rarely) a druid.  You still didn’t want anyone to take too much damage over time since the healer would have to continually dump his or her limited spells into the characters to keep moving.

 

In 4E and PoE, clerics/priests serve more of a tactical function than a strategic function.  Outside of combat, 4E characters can use their own surges without needing a dedicated healer.  Within combat, they usually either need to use Second Wind or have a surge triggered by a cleric or similar healing character.  But even if a cleric triggers a surge (e.g. via Healing Word), it’s the targeted character that’s using it, not the cleric.  4E clerics sprinkle a little extra healing on top of the surge, but the surge is typically doing the majority of the healing.  Much more than in AD&D or 3.X, you don’t need a dedicated healer in 4E in a strategic sense — though they can be incredibly valuable, tactically.

 

For defense-oriented characters — both in PoE and 4E — their defensive abilities and their HP/surges/Health are their resources.  They have high HP/Stamina/Health because they’re intended to take the lion’s share of damage.  Everyone needs HP to keep moving, but when a defender runs out, the line of defense drops.  PoE’s AI targeting currently dogpiles on the nearest available target, so if you send your fighter forward, he or she is going to suffer significantly more than a 4E defender would (assuming the DM didn’t just have everyone dogpile).

 

I think that when the AI targeting improves, damage will spread out more.  Additionally, I think all the front line characters need to have their health set up more like the barbarian with Thick-Skinned.  After all, in 4E, surges are proportional to total health, but even so, the front line classes have more surges to burn every day.  E.g. wizards have 6 base surges and fighters have 9.  4E characters also get more surges the higher their Con, so it’s not uncommon for a front-line character have almost twice as much personal healing potential.

[mutonizer]

Ahhh, 4E.

I really didn't want to bring the name, not even usher it, for fear of what might happen...but well, it's here now and pretty much explains everything...

 

 

Welp, no more game mechanic discussion whatsoever from me then, just bugs.I've lived through it once, not doing it again

Edited September 6, 2014 by mutonizer

[Karkarov]

You're missing a pretty important part of the equation here, though: Incoming damage.

 

By virtue of being a tank, that character will generally take on more enemies. More enemies means more incoming damage. The DT will affect every single one of those incoming attacks, whereas an attack speed increase will only affect that character's damage output. I think you will quickly find that greater DT avoids a hell of a lot more damage to the tank, than an increase in attack speed will affect damage output.

Eh not exactly.  DT is just like Accuracy except eventually you get to a point where it really is useless.  Let's say an enemy can hit for 12-15 damage normally on average.  Do you know that the DT difference between full plate and a breastplate is 4?  Okay, so Fighters for example get +3 DT outright just cause they are fighters. Breastplate gives another 8, thats 11 DT (actually it is more than that apparently get to that in a minute).  So that enemy doing 12-15 damage is actually only doing 4 to the Fighter in a breastplate at best on a normal hit.  The fighter in the Breastplate also gets to act 10% faster than the guy in full plate so at 3s with a normal sword + shield speed you get 4.5s per action with Full plate and 4.2 with the breastplate.

 

Over the short term it seems obvious the full plate wins... but over an hour of combat the guy with the breastplate gets at least 60 more actions than the guy in full plate.  But the damage?  You are right, the breastplate guy does take 3 more damage on the 15 hits... but on the 12 hits they both take 1 damage, assuming of course the enemy always does at least 1 damage no matter what if they hit.  So over the long term you lose a ton of damage potential but don't take a massive amount more damage.  You could argue the "multiple targets" angle, but again, say three guys hit a fighter, all three guys get to act once every 3 seconds, and on average all three combined (after DT) 5 damage to breast plate guy but only 3 to plate guy... well... breastplate guy is still a fighter, still regenning 1 hp a second, meaning by the time they get to act again he is only down 2 stam.  So the health damage would pile up faster, but again, it wouldn't be heinously fast.

 

I am glad I did look into this though cause there is a lot more to it apparently.  For one BB Rogue has 6 DT naked, why?  None of their skills imply they get a DT bonus.  Is perception giving bonus DT and it just isn't documented?  In the same line BB Fighter gets no DT when no armor is on, not even 1, but somehow BB Mage has 4 DT with no armor???  Maybe dex is involved also?  Or is it somehow a hidden racial bonus?  In fact every character I had except BB Fighter had at least 4 DT naked, including my human fighter MC.

 

Also the DT calculation is wrong... or at least not giving the whole truth.  Like I said in addition the to "hidden" bonus some characters appear to be getting for some reason armor also apparently has different DT values VS different attacks.  Here is some combat log pics where I took my MC Fighter, gave him a fine breastplate, and let him Solo the wolf encounter.  I do admit I let BBRogue die just to test if they really did have 6 DT, and yes, they did.  As the screenshots will show you versus the crushing attack they do I have 17 DT (4 for naked based+3 for fighter wearing armor+8 for breastplate+2 for being fine quality armor).  However against the piercing attacks I suddenly have 22.5 DT???  Again nothing in the character screen or item descriptions to explain this.  We need much more detail in the item listings and character panes I would say.

 

Here are the pics:

 

Here you see versus crushing damage I have the expected DT of 17.

 

 

Here you will notice versus piercing attacks I suddenly (and inexplicably) have 22.5 DT.  Also if anyone can figure out how 22.1 - 22.5 equals 2.1 please let me know I want to mainline whatever it is you are doing.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2014 by Karkarov

[Marceror]

Ahhh, 4E.

I really didn't want to bring the name, not even usher it, for fear of what might happen...but well, it's here now and pretty much explains everything...

 

 

Welp, no more game mechanic discussion whatsoever from me then, just bugs.I've lived through it once, not doing it again

It seemed like Josh was talking more about 4E than PoE. I found that a touch bizarre, a touch disturbing.

[Infinitron]

It's been known for some time that the Pillars of Eternity system is essentially a kind of 3E/4E hybrid (more like the former in terms of class ability differences)

Edited September 6, 2014 by Infinitron