Sensuki's Suggestions #013: Take out the trash in the Dyrford Crossing

[Immortalis]

 

There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.

 

I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.

Haha that's funny. After I killed the Wolves I thought, now there's GOT to be some loot around here because there wouldn't be an encounter here otherwise, and I walked around the ruins in scouting mode. Didn't find anything though, I will go and have another look.

 

Combat should be it's own reward.. Josh Sawyer shouldn't have to bribe you to kill wolves..

[Sensuki]

Read the thread properly my friend rather than quoting something something I said out of context.

[Mayama]

For me, the point is more that this map feels more like a circus than anything else. It feels like you can barely move without running into something that wants to murder you. 

Which kind of circus do you visit?! D:

[Elerond]

Wolves were actually known to commonly raid villages and even towns during the middle ages. Like sneaking into Paris and dragging off children. Only with firearms and urbanization did wolves move away from human populations.

 

But I might be getting a bit too academic...

 

That is mostly talk from people that don't actually know much about wolves. French for example were somewhat obsessed about wolf attacks against humans and from their documentations we can find records for under 7600 fatal attacks against humans between years 1200-1920, Moriceau, Jean-Marc (2013), Sur les pas du loup: Tour de France et atlas historiques et culturels du loup, du moyen âge à nos jours [On the trail of the wolf: a tour of France and a historical and cultural atlas of the wolf, from the Middle Ages to modern times], Paris, Montbel, ISBN 978-2-35653-067-7).

 

I live area that has wolves and I have seen them in nature and I can tell you that they run away from humans (although it is recorded that wolves that live near humans long time will cause wolves lose their fear of humans gradually) if they have chance (driving them corner or attacking them will often cause them to attack humans doing so). Worst that wolves usually do is to attack yard animals, but even that they do quite rarely. Although when wolves attack against humans they usually attack against weaker people like children about 90% of predatory attacks (cases where wolf attacks human because they think that human is prey), victim has been under 18 and most of cases against adults victim has been woman. Reason for such is that wolves hunt weakest and most vulnerable members of of their prey and that historically children were more vulnerable to wolves as they did go unattended to pick things from forest or herd cattle or sheep on pastures and as such habits have ended in Europe at same has wolf attacks against children dropped (in Asia especially in India such attacks still occur as there it is quite normal that children go alone herd cattle), now days most predatory attacks in Europe happen when children mistake wolf as dog and try to go pet it.   

 

And world Eora in technological level where urbanization and firearms have become normal.

[archangel979]

 

 

For me, the point is more that this map feels more like a circus than anything else. It feels like you can barely move without running into something that wants to murder you.

Which kind of circus do you visit?! D:

Maybe the BG2 one?

[Tartantyco]

 

Wolves were actually known to commonly raid villages and even towns during the middle ages. Like sneaking into Paris and dragging off children. Only with firearms and urbanization did wolves move away from human populations.

 

But I might be getting a bit too academic...

 

That is mostly talk from people that don't actually know much about wolves. French for example were somewhat obsessed about wolf attacks against humans and from their documentations we can find records for under 7600 fatal attacks against humans between years 1200-1920, Moriceau, Jean-Marc (2013), Sur les pas du loup: Tour de France et atlas historiques et culturels du loup, du moyen âge à nos jours [On the trail of the wolf: a tour of France and a historical and cultural atlas of the wolf, from the Middle Ages to modern times], Paris, Montbel, ISBN 978-2-35653-067-7).

 

I live area that has wolves and I have seen them in nature and I can tell you that they run away from humans (although it is recorded that wolves that live near humans long time will cause wolves lose their fear of humans gradually) if they have chance (driving them corner or attacking them will often cause them to attack humans doing so). Worst that wolves usually do is to attack yard animals, but even that they do quite rarely. Although when wolves attack against humans they usually attack against weaker people like children about 90% of predatory attacks (cases where wolf attacks human because they think that human is prey), victim has been under 18 and most of cases against adults victim has been woman. Reason for such is that wolves hunt weakest and most vulnerable members of of their prey and that historically children were more vulnerable to wolves as they did go unattended to pick things from forest or herd cattle or sheep on pastures and as such habits have ended in Europe at same has wolf attacks against children dropped (in Asia especially in India such attacks still occur as there it is quite normal that children go alone herd cattle), now days most predatory attacks in Europe happen when children mistake wolf as dog and try to go pet it.

 

And world Eora in technological level where urbanization and firearms have become normal.

 

Can't remember anyone saying that wolves were unstoppable murder machines who literally killed everyone everywhere. Attacks by wolves were common, and still are in developing countries[1]. The idea that wolves living within a four hour walking distance of a rural village in a renaissance-inspired fantasy world is somehow preposterous is actually preposterous.

[Karkarov]

There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.

 

I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.

This.

 

Most of your suggestions are fairly reasonable for the most part Sensuki but this pure nit picking.  Every encounter doesn't need some long drawn out narrative excuse and to have tons of back story behind it.  Why are the wolves there?  Because making your home in an old ruin is a ton safer and more cozy for a wolf pack than the middle of a bunch of trees or a cave filled with killer spiders I imagine.

[Elerond]

 

 

Wolves were actually known to commonly raid villages and even towns during the middle ages. Like sneaking into Paris and dragging off children. Only with firearms and urbanization did wolves move away from human populations.

 

But I might be getting a bit too academic...

 

That is mostly talk from people that don't actually know much about wolves. French for example were somewhat obsessed about wolf attacks against humans and from their documentations we can find records for under 7600 fatal attacks against humans between years 1200-1920, Moriceau, Jean-Marc (2013), Sur les pas du loup: Tour de France et atlas historiques et culturels du loup, du moyen âge à nos jours [On the trail of the wolf: a tour of France and a historical and cultural atlas of the wolf, from the Middle Ages to modern times], Paris, Montbel, ISBN 978-2-35653-067-7).

 

I live area that has wolves and I have seen them in nature and I can tell you that they run away from humans (although it is recorded that wolves that live near humans long time will cause wolves lose their fear of humans gradually) if they have chance (driving them corner or attacking them will often cause them to attack humans doing so). Worst that wolves usually do is to attack yard animals, but even that they do quite rarely. Although when wolves attack against humans they usually attack against weaker people like children about 90% of predatory attacks (cases where wolf attacks human because they think that human is prey), victim has been under 18 and most of cases against adults victim has been woman. Reason for such is that wolves hunt weakest and most vulnerable members of of their prey and that historically children were more vulnerable to wolves as they did go unattended to pick things from forest or herd cattle or sheep on pastures and as such habits have ended in Europe at same has wolf attacks against children dropped (in Asia especially in India such attacks still occur as there it is quite normal that children go alone herd cattle), now days most predatory attacks in Europe happen when children mistake wolf as dog and try to go pet it.

 

And world Eora in technological level where urbanization and firearms have become normal.

 

Can't remember anyone saying that wolves were unstoppable murder machines who literally killed everyone everywhere. Attacks by wolves were common, and still are in developing countries[1]. The idea that wolves living within a four hour walking distance of a rural village in a renaissance-inspired fantasy world is somehow preposterous is actually preposterous.

 

 

My point was that wolves don't attack human settlements and steal children from them, such talk is from people that haven't ever seen wolf in nature. Attacks of wolves haven't ever been commonplace thing but they aren't also rare thing to happen, but in most cases they happen because of human provocation or against single individual that comes across them in nature.

 

That village is not in four hour walking distance if of that village (even it says so in transition information, maybe road is in very bad condition ) as there is tunnel that connect that place and that village and that tunnel isn't several kilometers long.

[Sensuki]

Why are the wolves there?  Because making your home in an old ruin is a ton safer and more cozy for a wolf pack than the middle of a bunch of trees or a cave filled with killer spiders I imagine.

But there's no cover, really.

 

I already posted about the one kinda out of place wolf encounter in Baldur's Gate 1 that had a 'quest' to it. This one feels a bit strange. Bunch of Elder wolves roaming around an empty ruin for some reason.

 

It's not a good encounter anyway, and if it's going to stay there there should at least be some reasoning behind it. Other than hmmm what to put here  .... some wolves I guess.

 

I also thought the beetles on the road was strange as well which others have agreed with.

 

The amount of pathable terrain near all of these encounters (not much) gives the area a cramped feeling of exploration as well.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

While we are nitpicking don't call them Elder but Prime, Alpha, Dire or anything more fitting :D

[Sensuki]

Dire is probably taboo now due to Game of Thrones heh, wish that show was never made tbh.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Uomoz]

I don't understand the concept of trash mob, in a game like PoE. There's wildlife and gameworld-related enemies placed on the maps, what's trashy about them? If an area has enemies, it doesn't necessary mean the enemies need to have a specific "gamey" reason to be there, like a treasure. For example, I'm perfectly fine with the pack of wolves in the forest near the ruins. If a creature has a lore, a reason to be there, and its immersive in its context, why should it be classified as trash mob? I'm not grinding exp, I'm watching an epic party of adventurers fighting off a wolf pack!

[Karkarov]

 

Why are the wolves there?  Because making your home in an old ruin is a ton safer and more cozy for a wolf pack than the middle of a bunch of trees or a cave filled with killer spiders I imagine.

But there's no cover, really.

 

I already posted about the one kinda out of place wolf encounter in Baldur's Gate 1 that had a 'quest' to it. This one feels a bit strange. Bunch of Elder wolves roaming around an empty ruin for some reason.

 

It's not a good encounter anyway, and if it's going to stay there there should at least be some reasoning behind it. Other than hmmm what to put here  .... some wolves I guess.

 

I also thought the beetles on the road was strange as well which others have agreed with.

 

The amount of pathable terrain near all of these encounters (not much) gives the area a cramped feeling of exploration as well.

 

Again a nit pick.  I never felt this way and it isn't like it takes a long time to clear them out.  If anything I feel the outdoor areas are too small though.  But who knows, this is just the beta there could be tons of larger areas out there.

 

Let's not forget the biggest gripe of Baldur's Gate 1.

 

Huge amount of huge wilderness maps filled with..... nothing!

 

It made perfect sense and was totally lore friendly, but it was boring as crap too and most players didn't enjoy it.  I can't help but feel they designed this wilderness with the Baldur's Gate 1 feedback very much in mind.  Also just to throw this out there people, listen to chatter in town.  This IS the wilderness.  Some of the people in town even seem incredulous that you are even there and ask why you would bother coming to some back water.  This is not Waterdeep, it is a remote village surrounded by woods.  There is nothing unusual at all about the roads being unsafe, wolves prowling around, or the wildlife having free run.  Cause I get the distinct feeling no one ever much visits the place and no one bothers patrolling the roads.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Karkarov

[Sensuki]

That's funny I've heard most people saying the contrary. Baldur's Gate 1 Wilderness areas were awesome. My gripe with them is the lack of quests. There is only one (sometimes two) minor quests in each area.

 

Most of the areas actually have plenty of encounters, even if a lot of them are minor ones.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Tartantyco]

Let's not forget the biggest gripe of Baldur's Gate 1.

 

Huge amount of huge wilderness maps filled with..... nothing!

 

 

I never saw that as an issue. If you don't have to look around for stuff it's not exactly exploring, is it? To much density gets you into ridiculous scenarios such as with Skyrim, where you have a bandit camp just below Whiterun.

[Helm]

 

There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.

 

I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.

This.

 

Most of your suggestions are fairly reasonable for the most part Sensuki but this pure nit picking.  Every encounter doesn't need some long drawn out narrative excuse and to have tons of back story behind it.  Why are the wolves there?  Because making your home in an old ruin is a ton safer and more cozy for a wolf pack than the middle of a bunch of trees or a cave filled with killer spiders I imagine.

 

Yeah, there is some loot there, but it was not good. Just some crafting materials or something. You might as well just skip it like practically every other encounter in this game.

 

I don't understand the concept of trash mob, in a game like PoE. There's wildlife and gameworld-related enemies placed on the maps, what's trashy about them?

A trash mob is simply any hostile NPC that isn't a boss character. The Ogre or the spider queen wouldn't be a trash mobs, everything else is. Edited August 27, 2014 by Helm

[Immortalis]

Read the thread properly my friend rather than quoting something something I said out of context.

 

How is you wanting rewards for combat out of context?

 

Please don't edit any of your current posts after you give your answer..

[Sensuki]

Back to the XP for combat thread mate, which I have never posted in.

[Fluffle]

I... I simply cannot understand this. What to say? I'm shocked.

 

I have been looking for this game for so long. It was advertised as being the spiritual successor of the IE Games.

It was to be an immersive, rich, new adventure, an epic experience and story-telling.

 

And then there are wolves at the ruins.

I feel completely devastated. Just out of the blue.

Wolves. At the ruins. Without any aim or reason.

 

You know if they had been placed more in a wilderness area, with forest or so. That would have been okay.

But not ruins! Even if the ruins are in a wilderness area, wolves would never just go to abandoned ruins in the wilderness

because why would they?

 

Unless those wolves tell me the exact reason why they dare approach ruins in the wilderness, I cannot

take this game for serious anymore.

 

It's breaking my immersion and in the end this is a gamebreaker for me.

Please Obsidian fix this ASAP.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Fluffle

[Sensuki]

The selection circles of NPCs are the same color as the player color, UNINSTALL GAME IMMEDIATELY

[Fluffle]

The selection circles of NPCs are the same color as the player color, UNINSTALL GAME IMMEDIATELY

 

Omg I didn't notice! Selection circles in our world would behave totally differently from this!

Edited August 27, 2014 by Fluffle

[Immortalis]

Back to the XP for combat thread mate, which I have never posted in.

 

So what you meant to say was.. It was -slightly- off topic.. I said rewards for combat not xp.. and you clearly stated in your original post that part of the reason for your disatisfaction at the wolves existing was lack of rewards as well as a lack of reason for them being there..

 

the encounters with the Wood and Stone Beetles and the Wolves to the south are essentially Trash encounters. I particularly found the encounter with the Wolves in the ruins most uninteresting. There's no cool loot [continued]

 

 

 

There actually was some cool loot near the wolves. Not sure if it was near enough, but it was there. Enter Scout Mode and you'll see.

 

I didn't find the map too jarring. I don't find it problematic that there's dangerous wildlife roaming around with no particular story role or reward for murdering them. If nothing else, it adds to the atmosphere, like those merrily bouncing deer but with teeth.

Haha that's funny. After I killed the Wolves I thought, now there's GOT to be some loot around here because there wouldn't be an encounter here otherwise

 

 

 

I mean if your gonna brush off my comments at least put in a half effort.. M8..

 

Or are you telling me to just shut up?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Immortalis

[fortuntek]

Fluffle's got a point. 

 

However, I think the newfound need for every 'trash' encounter to have an underlying reason or reward is a direct result of the 'no XP for kills' decision. Now, let's not let this devolve into a discussion about that (which can be found here instead) but can we at least talk about the effect its having on traveling through areas like this, and the apparent need to 'spice up' each individual encounter that it necessitates? Otherwise it becomes pointless. 

 

Maybe the question is better worded like this: even if every fight with a pack of wolves or beetles has loot or story reasons or some other incentive, is that enough? For your tastes, that is. Just wondering. I'm kind of on the fence, myself.

[Matt516]

I don't understand the concept of trash mob, in a game like PoE. There's wildlife and gameworld-related enemies placed on the maps, what's trashy about them? If an area has enemies, it doesn't necessary mean the enemies need to have a specific "gamey" reason to be there, like a treasure. For example, I'm perfectly fine with the pack of wolves in the forest near the ruins. If a creature has a lore, a reason to be there, and its immersive in its context, why should it be classified as trash mob? I'm not grinding exp, I'm watching an epic party of adventurers fighting off a wolf pack!

The problem though is that if there's no in game reward (loot, story, xp) for fighting them, then the fight is essentially disincentivized. Which is silly for such a combat focused game. I've said it before and I'll say it again - while I prefer combat XP personally, it's not vital... But you have to have something to replace it as a mechanical motivation for doing combat. Otherwise it's literally a waste of ingame resources (health, potions, etc) that is always better to bypass if possible.

[Sensuki]

I mean if your gonna brush off my comments at least put in a half effort.. M8..

 

Or are you telling me to just shut up?

My OP questions why the encounter is even there. Why do you place an encounter in the game?

 

1. Tactical challenge - That pack of Wolves is *the* easiest encounter I have come across in the game, it requires no micro whatsoever. The 5 guys in your party without completing any quests, buying any gear or doing anything can aggro the wolves together and auto attack away to an easy victory.

 

2. To protect loot - Encounters of these types of games are placed as an obstacle to loot. Originally I did not find the secret stash inside the broken down tower wall because when I had sneak on, I aggro'd the wolf inside the tower and then walked out of the tower and turned sneak on and searched the other ruins after I had killed the wolves. There is actually some loot there. So this point is kind of covered.

 

3. To alter the adventuring pace - This encounter is out of the way, not on a direct path to any of the quests or major locations in the area so it doesn't tick this box either

 

4. To drain your strategical resources - Encounters are often placed in levels to 'soften' you up for later encounters. This ties into point number three, altering the adventuring pace. The Wolves do do some Health damage to you, but even just auto attacking them, they don't really do much to soften you up for the other encounters that you likely haven't faced in the levels yet (Ogre Cave, Wurmhunters).

 

5. In games where XP for kills is by design, monsters are placed in a level for you to farm XP from. That can be a reason for an encounter's existence. Generally it's not great design though and apart from Icewind Dale 2, the IE games encounters generally felt well paced. Due to the fact that these Wolves are not tied to any quests or Objectives, this nullifies this point.

 

6. Narrative - Since only one of these points is half covered by the encounter itself (protecting loot), the only other justification I can come up with for the encounter to exist is some kind of narrative in the area, as to which none exists - which is why I suggested one in the OP.

 

Satisfied?

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki