Another comment on the exp system

[Hiro Protagonist II]

As I said before on the previous page, personally I don't see the incentive to get into combat in a rpg where one of its big selling points is tactical combat, where the rewards will be usually trash loot. If I can take the easy option and the rewards are very similar, then easy wins out. Unless that encounter has some uber item, I'll avoid combat and the risks that goes with combat. I might get into combat if the fight is a pushover, but if I'm facing multiple enemies, then I'll click 'easy option'.

 

To me, when I weight it all up, it's just not worth wasting my time when I can click a couple of dialogue options and get the same xp reward and similar money. Yes, I missed out on loot but it was trash loot. Yes I could have sold all that loot but I already have enough money. In the end with the quest above, I took the pacifist route.

[Gromnir]

I don't think we were talking about build or weapon choices there, Gromnir. But rather, the way in which combat was rendered secondary (and even pointless in many cases) in the grand scheme of things.

 

And like I said earlier on this thread, that'd be a decent design if they were designing Planescape Torment 2. But they're NOT. This is a combat centric game and combat should bestow the *best* rewards.

obsidian is designing an RPG. is not getting through? they are developing a Game that offers the player Choices. those choices include builds and weapon types and a host o' other factors. and in the grand scheme o' things, combat is not pointless (see above) but is treated exactly equal, which is kinda the point o' an rpg, and clearly were the obsidian's point based on their kickstarter promises. need us to point those Again? 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61543-are-you-for-or-against-gaining-experience-points-only-for-completing-objectives/

 

goal from very start is mentioned right there at start o' the older and more populous poll.

 

oh, and am not gonna do more than observe that you mistaken brought ps:t as kinda an ideal xp mechanic earlier in one o' these threads. lord knows you don't want us to go that way again.

 

"what we've got here is failure to communicate." 

 

tactical combat is not being discouraged unless you has the complete bizarre notion that any mechanic that seeks to encourage diverse roleplay styles in addition to combat is fundamentally and inexplicably making combat pointless and worthless... but we has been down this road again. you is not getting less experience by doing combat. you simple isn't getting more. this, like ps:t and fallout, and bg2 is ROLE-PLAY games. the notion that by other folks getting the same, you is getting less is just... childish. actually can't think o' a better term than childish. 

 

*shrug*

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67672-toggling-xp-systems-for-a-peaceful-co-existence/?p=1499053

 

nevertheless, we see that you, in particular, cannot be reasoned with. were our mistake in making the attempt once again. we said we would not repeat that mistake, but clear no progress has been made... none is capable o' being made.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: what is with weird font size problem we have on this board? weird

Edited September 4, 2014 by Gromnir

[Lephys]

Have you played the Beta Lephys? Your posts come across as your usual hypothetical abstract posts. Not any personal experience from playing the Beta. I've also noticed your absence from the Beta forum as well.

Yes, I have. I have not completed it, yet, but I have played it a bit. Not that this matters to your superiority complex, or anything, since now you'll simply say that, since you've played it more than I have, I somehow lack the privilege of commenting on game design concepts in general.

 

And, from my personal experience, I start with like 1500cp, and I want my Wizard to use a Rapier. Well, the local weapon shop sells weapons for about 4000-5000cp (if not more). Thus, the very first combat I engaged in got me not only loot I could sell, but some stuff I could actually use in my current party.

 

Is that concrete enough for you?

 

Also, ("ABSTRACTION" ALERT, HIRO!) any of these things could be tweaked before release. Not only that, but, in the beta, we're not even starting at the beginning of the game. So, loot could be made more valuable, more frequent, etc. Foe locations could be changed up. Foe numbers could be changed up. Objective XP could be distributed more pervasively. There are all kinds of things that could occur for the final game to not end up exactly like the current beta build does, or for things like "I don't even need any loot at all" to not even end up being true.

 

Also also, there doesn't seem to be a happy medium with combat rewards. If killing all the extraneous mobs in an area gave you, say, 900 more XP, then that would be pretty significant, and combat would be the way to go. Because XP ALWAYS helps you out until you're at level cap. "So just make it less" some people said. Okay, so if all those mobs gave you like 200XP, well then, you're basically back to "I don't really NEED that XP. I feel like I'm not really getting anything for my efforts." Just like the current sentiment with loot, as it becomes circumstantially unnecessary after a bit.

 

So, where's the happy medium? Fighting everything is either THE way to go, or it's just another option.

 

I think most people have agreed that the current system needs to be changed. There's no doubt about that. Its exact, current state isn't perfect. That's precisely why it's a beta.

 

Basically, just because you feel the combat encounters aren't enticing enough doesn't mean the obvious conclusion is "TOSS IN INDIVIDUAL COMBAT XP ACROSS THE BOARD TO FIX IT!". There are numerous factors to adjust/options to take to fix what ails the current build.

[Ganrich]

Lephys, there is no room for pragmatism here. This is the internet.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Have you played the Beta Lephys? Your posts come across as your usual hypothetical abstract posts. Not any personal experience from playing the Beta. I've also noticed your absence from the Beta forum as well.

Yes, I have. I have not completed it, yet, but I have played it a bit. Not that this matters to your superiority complex, or anything, since now you'll simply say that, since you've played it more than I have, I somehow lack the privilege of commenting on game design concepts in general.

 

And, from my personal experience, I start with like 1500cp, and I want my Wizard to use a Rapier. Well, the local weapon shop sells weapons for about 4000-5000cp (if not more). Thus, the very first combat I engaged in got me not only loot I could sell, but some stuff I could actually use in my current party.

 

Is that concrete enough for you?

 

Also, ("ABSTRACTION" ALERT, HIRO!) any of these things could be tweaked before release. Not only that, but, in the beta, we're not even starting at the beginning of the game. So, loot could be made more valuable, more frequent, etc. Foe locations could be changed up. Foe numbers could be changed up. Objective XP could be distributed more pervasively. There are all kinds of things that could occur for the final game to not end up exactly like the current beta build does, or for things like "I don't even need any loot at all" to not even end up being true.

 

Also also, there doesn't seem to be a happy medium with combat rewards. If killing all the extraneous mobs in an area gave you, say, 900 more XP, then that would be pretty significant, and combat would be the way to go. Because XP ALWAYS helps you out until you're at level cap. "So just make it less" some people said. Okay, so if all those mobs gave you like 200XP, well then, you're basically back to "I don't really NEED that XP. I feel like I'm not really getting anything for my efforts." Just like the current sentiment with loot, as it becomes circumstantially unnecessary after a bit.

 

So, where's the happy medium? Fighting everything is either THE way to go, or it's just another option.

 

I think most people have agreed that the current system needs to be changed. There's no doubt about that. Its exact, current state isn't perfect. That's precisely why it's a beta.

 

Basically, just because you feel the combat encounters aren't enticing enough doesn't mean the obvious conclusion is "TOSS IN INDIVIDUAL COMBAT XP ACROSS THE BOARD TO FIX IT!". There are numerous factors to adjust/options to take to fix what ails the current build.

 

 

Ah Lephys. Such a precious snowflake.

 

And I'm not asking what most people have agreed or what the feeling on the forums are. I'm asking what you think. So what game designs don't you like with the Beta. Or is it all everything is wonderful in Lephys land. You can do it, you can give criticism of the beta and tell us what you don't like with the design choices that have been made with the game. Note: Design choices, not bugs in the Beta.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Bryy]

It Should be an experience of defated enemies because is it basic element of cult role-playling games

No experience as enemies the game will not encourage a thorough exploration of the area

If you have to encourage exploration through the jimmy of killing things, that's bad design.

[R.Alexander]

I sure don't go exploring in RPGs for experience. I explore because I want to know what's out there. When an RPG becomes just an experience hunt, I don't care to play it anymore.

[Immortalis]

 

 

It Should be an experience of defated enemies because is it basic element of cult role-playling games

No experience as enemies the game will not encourage a thorough exploration of the area

If you have to encourage exploration through the jimmy of killing things, that's bad design.

 

 

No it's not.. some people don't enjoy exploration without a goal.. If everyone hates your exploration system without beetles to kill then yes it may be time to revise..

 

But you really need to stop speaking in absolutes.. There is a huge percentage of players who just don't enjoy exploration of a fantasy world inherently fun but still love the IE games.. you can't discount them just because it's not what you enjoy about the game.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Immortalis

[Immortalis]

 

Basically, just because you feel the combat encounters aren't enticing enough doesn't mean the obvious conclusion is "TOSS IN INDIVIDUAL COMBAT XP ACROSS THE BOARD TO FIX IT!". There are numerous factors to adjust/options to take to fix what ails the current build.

 

 

Like what? Don't speak in generalities.. come up with a solution that pleases both sides..

[Bryy]

 

 

It Should be an experience of defated enemies because is it basic element of cult role-playling games

No experience as enemies the game will not encourage a thorough exploration of the area

If you have to encourage exploration through the jimmy of killing things, that's bad design.

 

 

No it's not.. some people don't enjoy exploration without a goal.. If everyone hates your exploration system without beetles to kill then yes it may be time to revise..

 

But you really need to stop speaking in absolutes.. There is a huge percentage of players who just don't enjoy exploration of a fantasy world inherently fun but still love the IE games.. you can't discount them just because it's not what you enjoy about the game.

 

How was replying to one guys specific example an absolute?

[Stun]

I sure don't go exploring in RPGs for experience. I explore because I want to know what's out there.

Really? Do you buy an RPG to just play it once?

 

Because after that first playthrough your stated reason for exploring has been eliminated. You now know what's out there. Then what?

[Stun]

obsidian is designing an RPG. is not getting through? they are developing a Game that offers the player Choices. those choices include

...do those choices include getting more powerful by fighting? Aaah, no they don't. Stop claiming that Obsidian is developing a game that offers the player choices when what you really mean to say is that Obsidian is developing a game that offers Gromnir the choices he prefers.

 

Shill.

[Silent Winter]

^nor did the IE games offer the choice of getting more powerful by sneaking - PoE offers getting more powerful by doing quests, the choice lies in how to finish the quest.

The question is: Is the combat something you'd just avoid if you didn't have to?  (ie a 'false choice' of 'do boring stuff v easy stuff) (I'm getting the impression the answer is 'yes' so far but I'm still waiting on opinions from the quest-xp side of the argument as to whether they feel the combat is fun by itself).

[Hiro Protagonist II]

^nor did the IE games offer the choice of getting more powerful by sneaking - PoE offers getting more powerful by doing quests, the choice lies in how to finish the quest.

The question is: Is the combat something you'd just avoid if you didn't have to?  (ie a 'false choice' of 'do boring stuff v easy stuff) (I'm getting the impression the answer is 'yes' so far but I'm still waiting on opinions from the quest-xp side of the argument as to whether they feel the combat is fun by itself).

 

Yes they did. Even in BG1, you could sneak into the Bandit Camp and finish that quest. 

 

You do raise a good point though. I too would like to know from the quest-xp side of the argument whether they feel the combat is fun by itself.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Silent Winter]

Yes they did. Even in BG1, you could sneak into the Bandit Camp and finish that quest.

hmm, I remember talking my way into 'joining' them once, sneaking as far as the hut I got into a fight outside. (only my thief could actually sneak, invisibility on all party members might've taken too many spells, i forget  - will try it on my new playthrough soon).

 

Still, I don't recall many instances where sneaking past the enemy would get you to the end of a quest (or net you enough xp) though you're right, there were some quests like that.  But then it had kill-xp so I don't think I considered using it much, except to scout.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Silent Winter: I'm playing BG:EE right now, with a sneaky swashbuckler as my main, and I let her into buildings or at least upper floors, and also into camps alone, sneaking, and she's but level 1. Still, without her our party would have less money, less items, she's even netted one magical item, and also less xp (she may be doing it alone, but it says "the party got 10 xp" when she opens a lock.

[Silent Winter]

^ok, 10xp, let me know when you reach level 2

But seriously - other than burgling houses (BTW: Is this a thing in PoE?  I mean, are the guards called if you open that chest? Do you have time to escape?) - I mean the actual quests.  Never considered a full-on sneak playthrough of BG - I must give it a try on the next go (current paladin led party refuses to take coins that some poor soul obviously left in that barrel for safe-keeping ).

 

I guess I've always just played by killing the foes because that's how you level in that game. (NB: I've ALSO used my thief PC to burgle and scout and wotnot).  Is there really enough xp from sneaking around and avoiding as much combat as possible to reach the level cap?  (or near enough, I'll take one level down but don't fancy facing Sarevok+co at level 4-5 - I'm sure some peeps can do it, but not me )

[Stun]

Why are we talking about Stealth? Do you get XP for sneaking in PoE? Nope. Not in the Beta at least.

 

As for the IE games... lets see, Stealth completion of quests? Of course there's many *many* opportunities to do so if that is your cup of tea.

 

BG1:

1) The thieves guild quests

2) The skyship component-gathering quest

3) The Iron Throne Building quest (chapter 5's *main* plot.) You don't need to kill anyone in the building. you just need to retrieve the Letter from Reiltar.

 

BG2:

1) Irenicus' dungeon. Not a single enemy drops anything meaningful. Nor are the kill XP rewards worth the time. Therefore, the most efficient way to complete the "escape from your captor" quest is to use stealth, and grab loot from the containers.

2) Circus Tent - Stealth is the way to go. Although you do need to kill the gnome.

3) Copper Coronet quest - Free Hendack. Combination of Stealth and pick pocket will net you the quest XP in that one.

4) Darnise Keep. You can stealth past everything until the boss (Torgal does need to be killed.)

 

^a very small list. In no way complete. But it doesn't matter. The real difference here is that the BG games at least give you a choice on how you get XP. PoE does not. In POE your choices are: Either complete quests, or GTFO.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Stun

[Sarex]

The funny thing is that people expect that every single quest in PoE will be doable with stealth/diplomacy/etc. If 1/3 of the quest are doable without combat I am going to be surprised.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Sarex

[Silent Winter]

Why are we talking about Stealth? Do you get XP for sneaking in PoE? Nope. Not in the Beta at least.

 

As for the IE games... lets see, Stealth completion of quests? Of course there's many *many* opportunities to do so if that is your cup of tea.

[examples]

Good points - okay, point conceded there.

 

Speaking of stealth - have they 'fixed' individual stealth yet or is it being left as party-stealth?  Kinda want to sneak my rogue in for a scout, attack with my front lines and then bring the rogue in, but if they get destealthed at the start, they're behind enemy lines with no help.  Hmm, may need to do the first 2s sneak attack then 'escape' teleport to safety instead....

 

As for why we're talking about it - I think it was about which offers you more actual choice - BG or PoE? - and how that ties in with the XP system.

Edit: And as Sarex said, it'll still be a mostly combat centred solution for most things - so is the combat up to snuff or can it be made to be so?

But it's late here and I appear to be getting confused so I'll leave you to it

Edited September 6, 2014 by Silent Winter

[R.Alexander]

 

I sure don't go exploring in RPGs for experience. I explore because I want to know what's out there.

Really? Do you buy an RPG to just play it once?Because after that first playthrough your stated reason for exploring has been eliminated. You now know what's out there. Then what?

Then, exploration doesn't matter as much. I play RPGs for much more than just exploring the world though. I replay for reliving the story or "exploring" new solutions for quests or different interactions with characters. I'm sure you will probably find quests by exploring, and therefore, exploring will gain you experience anyway.

[Immortalis]

 

 

I sure don't go exploring in RPGs for experience. I explore because I want to know what's out there.

Really? Do you buy an RPG to just play it once?Because after that first playthrough your stated reason for exploring has been eliminated. You now know what's out there. Then what?

Then, exploration doesn't matter as much. I play RPGs for much more than just exploring the world though. I replay for reliving the story or "exploring" new solutions for quests or different interactions with characters. I'm sure you will probably find quests by exploring, and therefore, exploring will gain you experience anyway.

 

 

K but now you just pulled another cup and ball game where you shifted the argument again..

 

"I play RPGs for much more than just exploring the world though."

 

No ****.. we all do.. He was making a point don't be reductive.

[Stun]

 

Really? Do you buy an RPG to just play it once?Because after that first playthrough your stated reason for exploring has been eliminated. You now know what's out there. Then what?

Then, exploration doesn't matter as much.

 

Forgive me for clipping 3/4 of your post, but ^^^This^^^ is actually a really good point. And one I frequently bring up on these XP threads. So I want to focus on it.

 

Let me make my stance clear. I do not advocate Kill XP because I'm greedy and wish to be rewarded every 10 seconds. I advocate Kill XP because of what you've just said here. I'm looking at the big picture. I'm concerned about whether or not I'll still love doing an RPG's side content 5 years from now, when I'm on my 10th playthrough or more....when there's no more discovery. No more thrill-of-the-unknown... when even the story has lost some of its appeal.

 

For me, the process of leveling, and getting rewarded for doing things (like killing enemies) can *carry* an RPG, as it keeps things important.... Combat (and even exploration) will still matter on the 10th playthrough because you'll be getting rewarded for engaging in it.

 

Of course, this argument can also apply to quest XP, but unless all combat encounters are tied to a quest (which we already know won't be the case), Quest XP won't cover all the bases, and that's my worry.

[Immortalis]

 

 

Really? Do you buy an RPG to just play it once?Because after that first playthrough your stated reason for exploring has been eliminated. You now know what's out there. Then what?

Then, exploration doesn't matter as much.

 

Forgive me for clipping 3/4 of your post, but ^^^This^^^ is actually a really good point. And one I frequently bring up on these XP threads. So I want to focus on it.

 

Let me make my stance clear. I do not advocate Kill XP because I'm greedy and wish to be rewarded every 10 seconds. I advocate Kill XP because of what you've just said here. I'm looking at the big picture. I'm concerned about whether or not I'll still love doing an RPG's side content 5 years from now, when I'm on my 10th playthrough or more....when there's no more discovery. No more thrill-of-the-unknown... when even the story has lost some of its appeal.

 

For me, the process of leveling, and getting rewarded for doing things (like killing enemies) can *carry* an RPG, as it keeps things important.... Combat (and even exploration) will still matter on the 10th playthrough because you'll be getting rewarded for engaging in it.

 

Of course, this argument can also apply to quest XP, but unless all combat encounters are tied to a quest (which we already know won't be the case), Quest XP won't cover all the bases, and that's my worry.

 

 

I actually disagree.. Sorta.. I think even my first play through.. if combat doesn't reward anything.. I will find it tedious and in the way of my exploration and story telling experience.. I don't actually enjoy combat without a reward.. unless I am emotionally invested in the combat..

 

AKA the fight with Sarevok or Tarnesh or whatever was cool.. I probably didn't notice the xp at all. Fighting beetles even in a location that is new and exciting.. just feels tedious.. if the beetles won't give me anything I am gonna stealth past them probably.. not because I want to be sneaky, I just don't wanna spend time fighting beetles for an hour.

 

If PoE promised a good solid plot context for every combat situation.. it would be called Planescape: Numenara.. We know that's not gonna happen. So I want some incentive to not skip the forest of beetles.

 

*shrug* Maybe I am being too picky.

 

 

EDIT:

To clarify.. the part I disagreed with sorta was that.. Even on my first playthrough I am gonna get sick of the combat in side areas if it doesn't reward me for doing it. It won't take me 5 play throughs to hate fighting beetles.

 

The progression makes challenging combat fun.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Immortalis

[R.Alexander]

 

 

 

I sure don't go exploring in RPGs for experience. I explore because I want to know what's out there.

 

Really? Do you buy an RPG to just play it once?Because after that first playthrough your stated reason for exploring has been eliminated. You now know what's out there. Then what?

Then, exploration doesn't matter as much. I play RPGs for much more than just exploring the world though. I replay for reliving the story or "exploring" new solutions for quests or different interactions with characters. I'm sure you will probably find quests by exploring, and therefore, exploring will gain you experience anyway.

 

K but now you just pulled another cup and ball game where you shifted the argument again..

 

"I play RPGs for much more than just exploring the world though."

 

No ****.. we all do.. He was making a point don't be reductive.

He asked if I only played RPGs once, implying that without reason to explore, there was no reason to replay the game. Even with experince for kills, i still don't explore parts of Baldur's Gate I already have unless there are quests there. Experience doesn't entice me to explore, quests do. It's not really exploring after the first time, then it's just mining for experience and that isn't fun for me. However, redoing quests/battles differently is fun.