Another comment on the exp system

[Sir Davion]

I thought a while about the current exp system. I like new approaches so i also like the new attribute system and want to give the exp only by quests a chance. 

 

What many people seem to forget when they complain about killing enemies giving no exp is that they give loot. Exp points are nothing more then an abstraction for the characters progress so killing 10 beetles results maybe in 2% more damage or so.

 

The new exp mechanics allows the developers to tune the lvl system better towards encounters/quests so they feel better/balanced when actually playing them as well as kind of capping the max lvl and defining the classes within their maximum reachable level very well (abilities and talents).

 

What happens if you give exp for killing stuff. You have to implement either an open level cap which results in maybe crappy character development in the later levels. Or you keep an artificial level cap which results in two scenarios: Either you grind stuff and are too strong/capped relative to your encounters relatively early or you play "normal" to have the experience the developers intended. Only that its a lot more difficult for the developers to balance their encounters since the power margin of the given player that does quests varies a lot more because you can't control when and what stuff he kills (you already can't control in which order the player will sovle quests since it isn't strictly linear i guess).

 

I know there a some players who enjoy to feel powerful compared to their ai enemies (nothing wrong with that) and/or enjoy grinding (when its has some motivation attached to it). Here comes the loot into play. If most (in a perfect world) all enemies drop loot that either gives you money to buy more powerful stuff or even better craft stuff like potions/food and gear which improves yourself. And i actually think the developers intend it that way. So if you just want to experience the story and encounter challenging well designed encounters you can just do your quests and level up with the xp and buy/craft new stuff from the quests rewards and stuff you had to kill doing so. But if you enjoy powergaming/grinding you can still slaughter sh*t tons of enemies and grow much faster in power relative to your enemies. (Selling stuff and buying legendary gear and crafting stuff yourself).

[bon007]

It Should be an experience of defated enemies because is it basic element of cult role-playling games

No experience as enemies the game will not encourage a thorough exploration of the area

[Sir Davion]

Well exploration is encouraged mostly by loot you may find/enemies may drop or a new quest line you may discover. At least i guess that's how it is for most people.

[Immortalis]

I think this should have gone under the other thread.. but whatever..

 

Your point has been mentioned and debated.. a lot.. It is what it is.. no xp for kills just doesn't feel good as a mechanic to many people no matter how many times we hear it works better on paper.. not trying to be a fanboy of old IE mechanics or anything.. it just doesn't feel good and thats all that matters in a game..

 

after the beta has been patched up more lets see how things go.

[Ganrich]

Although, I am not on the same side of the debate as Immortalis I agree with his post. The argument has run in circles forever and a half, and no amount of debating will cause either side to buckle. The only answer is to wait for the patches to come to fix the XP system and see how these issues feel afterward. Also there is indeed enough threads on the subject. We don't need more threads. We need less.

[Immortalis]

Although, I am not on the same side of the debate as Immortalis I agree with his post. The argument has run in circles forever and a half, and no amount of debating will cause either side to buckle. The only answer is to wait for the patches to come to fix the XP system and see how these issues feel afterward. Also there is indeed enough threads on the subject. We don't need more threads. We need less.

 

I think when the other one gets locked.. we could start a new one in response to beta patches.. for sure the debate should be localized to one spot. theres at least 3 of these threads running around.. its harder for me to argue with you across 3 pages.

[Helm]

You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.

 

The core activity of the IE games is combat, that is why it is rewarded with XP. I'd expect the same from the spiritual successor.

[Lephys]

You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.

Really?! Wow. I could've sworn item durability was removed. You still have to replenish your weapons and armor? Or, are you saying that illusionary equipment will be dropped by foes? Or both? *blink blink* o_o

[Immortalis]

 

You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.

Really?! Wow. I could've sworn item durability was removed. You still have to replenish your weapons and armor? Or, are you saying that illusionary equipment will be dropped by foes? Or both? *blink blink* o_o

 

 

He means consumables from crafting.. use your head Lephys

[PrimeJunta]

 

You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.

Really?! Wow. I could've sworn item durability was removed. You still have to replenish your weapons and armor? Or, are you saying that illusionary equipment will be dropped by foes? Or both? *blink blink* o_o

 

Helm's talking nonsense. Enemies do drop loot, sometimes very good loot. The two fights in Dyrford itself drop excellent armor and weapons including probably the best ranged weapon in the demo, so much so that if you go the pacifist route you're actively handicapping yourself for the rest of the beta, or at least until you get through to some rather nice found loot.

 

Some other drops are more disappointing though; wildlife usually just drops monster bits which may or may not come in handy in crafting, and some of the other human enemies had fairly underwhelming drops. I hope they fix the latter; don't mind wolfs dropping wolf hides and spiders dropping venom sacs and spider legs.

[Immortalis]

 

 

You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.

Really?! Wow. I could've sworn item durability was removed. You still have to replenish your weapons and armor? Or, are you saying that illusionary equipment will be dropped by foes? Or both? *blink blink* o_o

 

Helm's talking nonsense. Enemies do drop loot, sometimes very good loot. The two fights in Dyrford itself drop excellent armor and weapons including probably the best ranged weapon in the demo, so much so that if you go the pacifist route you're actively handicapping yourself for the rest of the beta, or at least until you get through to some rather nice found loot.

 

Some other drops are more disappointing though; wildlife usually just drops monster bits which may or may not come in handy in crafting, and some of the other human enemies had fairly underwhelming drops. I hope they fix the latter; don't mind wolfs dropping wolf hides and spiders dropping venom sacs and spider legs.

 

 

But we need to make sure we have the exact same items available for sneaking past wolves and npcs.. it's not fair if I wanna use dialogue to get past the wolf forest and then i miss out on wolf furs..

 

Hopefully this is fixed in the game.. I am tired of people being rewarded for combat.. it ruins my single player game. It's not 1994 anymore guys.. if you don't like my game go play Baldurs Gate.

 

 

[/sarcasm]

[Wintersong]

But we need to make sure we have the exact same items available for sneaking past wolves and npcs.. it's not fair if I wanna use dialogue to get past the wolf forest and then i miss out on wolf furs..

 

Hopefully this is fixed in the game.. I am tired of people being rewarded for combat.. it ruins my single player game. It's not 1994 anymore guys.. if you don't like my game go play Baldurs Gate.

 

 

[/sarcasm]

 

Go play Dungeon Hack.

[Helm]

 

 

You don't get any loot in this game from combat, it is an illusion. All of the resources you get from combat are spent to replenish your combat resources.

Really?! Wow. I could've sworn item durability was removed. You still have to replenish your weapons and armor? Or, are you saying that illusionary equipment will be dropped by foes? Or both? *blink blink* o_o

 

 

Helm's talking nonsense. Enemies do drop loot, sometimes very good loot. The two fights in Dyrford itself drop excellent armor and weapons including probably the best ranged weapon in the demo, so much so that if you go the pacifist route you're actively handicapping yourself for the rest of the beta, or at least until you get through to some rather nice found loot.

Let me explain this to you too.

 

Yes, they do drop items. You collect items and sell them for gold or you collect crafting materials. What do you need gold for? To buy camping supplies or craft. What do you need camping supplies or crafted items for? For combat. Duh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not to mention that some of the best items can be found lying around in the world, there is even stuff in Dyford that can be found, even a gun IIRC. It is so blatantly obvious that combat is completely pointless in this game, because it is designed that way. Not to mention that you don't even need the absolute best equipment if you always avoid combat whenever possible (mostly because of the flawed and impotent stats system). There is no reason at all to take the high-risk path of killing anything in this game. The concept is not only fundamentally flawed (you build powerful warriors in a stealth game? Wut?) it also has absolutely nothing to do with an IE game. Nothing.

[PrimeJunta]

I am enjoying your butthurt, Helm. Please keep it up.

[Helm]

You're not very smart, but you're a pretty good troll.

 

BTW I enjoy it when you like my posts, always good to feel your butthurt.

[NikoBolas]

Not to mention that some of the best items can be found lying around in the world, there is even stuff in Dyford that can be found, even a gun IIRC. It is so blatantly obvious that combat is completely pointless in this game, because it is designed that way. Not to mention that you don't even need the absolute best equipment if you always avoid combat whenever possible (mostly because of the flawed and impotent stats system). There is no reason at all to take the high-risk path of killing anything in this game. The concept is not only fundamentally flawed (you build powerful warriors in a stealth game? Wut?) it also has absolutely nothing to do with an IE game. Nothing.

 

 

 

Wow, it's almost like you're playing a demo and not the entire game! The full game, which requires combat and has been stated you can not skip every battle, will probably feel a little different and have many high-risk paths (like an endless 15-level dungeon that you probably can't talk your way through). But don't think of that stuff, just keep saying that the first beta released has nothing to do with an IE game. Ignore that the entire interface of the game, most of the mechanics and systems of the game, and the entire concept of progression are the same as the IE games. Oh, and then stay mad about it.

 

To get back on topic, I think the exp system had serious flaws in other games. Where continuously killing kobolds would give you exp. I think in the spirit of exploration you should get an experience bonus the first time you encounter a new critter/enemy and defeat it. Subsequent enemies of the same type should offer nothing. This bonus could be very small but would still be meaningful to people that like to be rewarded for finding lots of stuff. I always liked getting exp bonuses for finding new locations or encountering new things in other games, and I've never really liked grinding, especially when its forced on me by the developers (Hi JRPGs like Final Fantasy!). 

Edited August 27, 2014 by NikoBolas

[Helm]

Wow, it's almost like you're playing a demo and not the entire game! The full game, which requires combat and has been stated you can not skip every battle, will probably feel a little different and have many high-risk paths (like an endless 15-level dungeon that you probably can't talk your way through).

I wrote combat is pointless, not that you will be able to avoid every combat situation. No idea how much combat you can skip or if you can beeline your way to the bottom of the dungeon to get the epic loot.

 

All I know is that Sawyer doesn't want to actively punish a player for his prefered playstyle, which is to either be stealthy or murder everything, although the gameplay in the Beta does passivlely encourage the player to avoid combat.

 

But don't think of that stuff, just keep saying that the first beta released has nothing to do with an IE game. Ignore that the entire interface of the game, most of the mechanics and systems of the game, and the entire concept of progression are the same as the IE games. Oh, and then stay mad about it.

This game looks like an IE game, but it doesn't feel like one. I don't remember the IE games being stealth simulators where you should skip all of the pointless combat. The core activitiy in the IE games was combat, exploration and questing. The core activitiy in PoE is to to solve quests while using stealth to avoid combat. They play very differently.

 

I'm not sure when Obsidian came to the conclusion that the mechanics in the IE games are total crap and need to be replaced. Mechanically PoE resembles Darklands more than any of IE games, which is not surprising considering the fact that Sawyer's favorite game is Darklands and that he hates Baldur's Gate.

[RadonGOG]

It Should be an experience of defated enemies because is it basic element of cult role-playling games

No experience as enemies the game will not encourage a thorough exploration of the area

This sounds like the first basic rule of bureaucracy: We always did it that way! And that´s no argument, everybody who ever dealt with bureaucracy knows this BY HEART! :D

 

Look at other things that are basic elements of cult role playing games:

Might and Magic: Killing respawning enemies instead of advancing the plot. What the hell?!

Dungeons & Dragons in general: Rolling dices to get better BASIC attributes. What the hell?!

PlanescapeTorment: Some spells are scaling on the nameless ones attributes, some on his level, some on nothing. What the hell?!

 

If I´d had to choose one basic thing that has to be learnt in the history of arts, then I´d chose this one:

Something that is new isn´t automaticaly good, something that is old and got tradition isn´t automaticaly good, either.

Just because something never has been done before or has always been done before in this way doesn´t increase its value!

[NikoBolas]

 

Wow, it's almost like you're playing a demo and not the entire game! The full game, which requires combat and has been stated you can not skip every battle, will probably feel a little different and have many high-risk paths (like an endless 15-level dungeon that you probably can't talk your way through).

I wrote combat is pointless, not that you will be able to avoid every combat situation. No idea how much combat you can skip or if you can beeline your way to the bottom of the dungeon to get the epic loot.

 

All I know is that Sawyer doesn't want to actively punish a player for his prefered playstyle, which is to either be stealthy or murder everything, although the gameplay in the Beta does passivlely encourage the player to avoid combat.

But don't think of that stuff, just keep saying that the first beta released has nothing to do with an IE game. Ignore that the entire interface of the game, most of the mechanics and systems of the game, and the entire concept of progression are the same as the IE games. Oh, and then stay mad about it.

This game looks like an IE game, but it doesn't feel like one. I don't remember the IE games being stealth simulators where you should skip all of the pointless combat. The core activitiy in the IE games was combat, exploration and questing. The core activitiy in PoE is to to solve quests while using stealth to avoid combat. They play very differently.

There was a lot of pointlesss combat in the ie games, and it did get tedious. Also you could just run from many trash mobs. The core activity in poe is not using stealth yo avoid combay, that is hyperbole. You were given a demo to test basic, talentless, combat and basic nonstory quests. From this and a loose knowledge of one developer youve drawn your own personal fantastic conclusions about a finished product you know very little about.

 

I'm not sure when Obsidian came to the conclusion that the mechanics in the IE games are total crap and need to be replaced. Mechanically PoE resembles Darklands more than any of IE games, which is not surprising considering the fact that Sawyer's favorite game is Darklands and that he hates Baldur's Gate.

They didnt come to that conclusion, you did, among many other unsubstantiated claims.

[Lephys]

Let me explain this to you too.

 

Yes, they do drop items. You collect items and sell them for gold or you collect crafting materials. What do you need gold for? To buy camping supplies or craft. What do you need camping supplies or crafted items for? For combat. Duh.

Man, if only we got XP for combat, instead of loot, everything would be fixed! Because, what do you need XP for? Obviously anything but combat.

 

BRILLIANT! 8D

Edited August 28, 2014 by Lephys

[Helm]

There was a lot of pointlesss combat in the ie games, and it did get tedious. Also you could just run from many trash mobs. The core activity in poe is not using stealth yo avoid combay, that is hyperbole. You were given a demo to test basic, talentless, combat and basic nonstory quests. From this and a loose knowledge of one developer youve drawn your own personal fantastic conclusions about a finished product you know very little about.

Thank you for admitting that you don't have to kill everything in an IE game for XP. We really appreciate it.

 

I didn't think the combat was tedious in the IE games, it was the core activity of the game and I enjoyed it. I see have admitted that you didn't really enjoy combat, which would explain why you can hardly wait to play this stealth simulator.

 

Anyway, I can draw as many conclusions as I like from the core mechanics that Obsidian presented. The game is obviously a stealth simulator and it needs to be fixed.

 

 

 

I'm not sure when Obsidian came to the conclusion that the mechanics in the IE games are total crap and need to be replaced. Mechanically PoE resembles Darklands more than any of IE games, which is not surprising considering the fact that Sawyer's favorite game is Darklands and that he hates Baldur's Gate.

They didnt come to that conclusion, you did, among many other unsubstantiated claims.

 

Now you have to explain why PoE is a stealth simulator that doesn't resemble any of the IE games at all.

 

 

Let me explain this to you too.

 

Yes, they do drop items. You collect items and sell them for gold or you collect crafting materials. What do you need gold for? To buy camping supplies or craft. What do you need camping supplies or crafted items for? For combat. Duh.

 

Man, if only we got XP for combat, instead of loot, everything would be fixed! Because, what do you need XP for? Obviously anything but combat.

 

BRILLIANT! 8D

 

What the?

 

You obviously didn't understand a word I wrote in my entire post. There is no incentive to engage in combat. Understand?

[R.Alexander]

I still can't understand why lack of kill experience makes combat pointless. Does that mean after you hit the level cap combat suddenly becomes unfun and pointless? Then, you are just gonna stealth past everything with your max level characters since you no longer get experience?

[Immortalis]

I still can't understand why lack of kill experience makes combat pointless. Does that mean after you hit the level cap combat suddenly becomes unfun and pointless? Then, you are just gonna stealth past everything with your max level characters since you no longer get experience?

 

uhh.. Nope. Usually by the time you hit level cap the game has been mostly explored.. most side quests are finished.. The game tends to fall into a much more linear narrative where you are basically wrapping things up..

 

Maybe finish up doing the hard optional dungeons that are really challenging.. maybe those will have really great item based rewards.. possibly the best in the game I would imagine just like Durlags or arguably Watchers Keep.. (depending what your building).. Lets you feel that sense of accomplishment for beating something harder then the final boss and getting some of the best advantages the game has to offer.

 

Then for that closure of the great writing and plot you've been following.. you finish off the final baddy and play the game again!

 

Sounds perfect to me actually.

 

EDIT

Rereading what I just typed.. Sounds better then perfect.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Immortalis

[Arsene Lupin]

Experience from combat is much less of an abstraction than earning experience from completing a quest.

 

Just think about it. Which activity is more likely to make you more proficient at sword combat: cutting up goblins with a sword, or finding farmer Giles' missing cow?

[NikoBolas]

Experience from combat is much less of an abstraction than earning experience from completing a quest.

 

Just think about it. Which activity is more likely to make you more proficient at sword combat: cutting up goblins with a sword, or finding farmer Giles' missing cow?

 

But the entire thing is an abstraction. Leveling up encompasses more than just becoming more proficient with a sword (especially for the majority of magic-related classes). Why do you get better at climbing from cutting up goblins? How come you can learn spells that have nothing to do with cutting up goblins by cutting up goblins? RPGs are full of systems that collapse if you look at them too closely. Ultimately people want to feel a sense of progression. How do you progress? By completing objectives. What are objectives? Cutting up goblins. Saving farmer's cows. Basically anything the game lets you do, is an objective. Not giving experience for defeating monsters over and over just means you can't become super-powered before the game's pacing has accounted for you to be by farming easy monsters for lots of exp. 

 

Really the whole abstraction argument is terrible. We are all talking about an extensive exercise in abstraction when we talk about fantasy video games that try to simulate real life as well as fireballs, dragons, and crafting items.

 

I didn't think the combat was tedious in the IE games, it was the core activity of the game and I enjoyed it. I see have admitted that you didn't really enjoy combat, which would explain why you can hardly wait to play this stealth simulator.

 

You don't know anything about me or what I like or enjoy. I don't go on multiple threads telling people those things. That's an activity you engage in and enjoy. You also like jumping to conclusions and declaring things are facts when they are just your opinions.

 

What about this game feels like a stealth simulator?

-Is there a number of stealth-related skills and spells? No. There is one stealth skill and it is completely optional.

-Is it necessary to engage in stealth? No. Stealth is just one of many options to overcome challenges.

-Was significant development time devoted to implementing Stealth? We don't know, but given what is in the beta, doubtful. Few classes interact with stealth directly.

 

Also, I can wait a significant amount of time because I'd rather they polish this game until it stands up to heavy scrutiny than release it before its ready. Again you assume that somehow I want the game to come out and "can't hardly wait" when the opposite is true. This type of thinking has been embodied in all your posts more than anything.