Drama in the indy gaming biz ?

[Zoraptor]

Meh, that spoilered stuff is suggestive only. If I'm going to hang someone for such things I want a bit more conclusiveness than a quarter of a head in a picture and some people obviously knowing each other. Frankly, I'd be surprised if games journalists didn't know and interact with a lot of game devs, that is legitimately a part of what covering games entails. I'd accept that it certainly looks like several of the other 5 were genuinely compromised, I just don't find the case against Grayson compelling- though I'll admit that 'zero evidence' is a bit strong, zero compelling evidence would be more accurate.

 

Easy for me to not care anyway, I actively avoid reading Kotaku and was not exactly enamoured with Grayson from his RPS output.

[Chaz]

If  Frank Gibeau or Peter Moore or any higher up in EA was accused (let's say by an insider) of paying Kotaku and other sites in order to get good reviews, people would be up in arms about it , or at least would interested to know what really happened.

 

I think it's kinda sexist that since it was a woman having sex with a journalist writing articles on her instead of a money bribe, people are dismissing the whole issue because what? sex is taboo? women can do no wrong? I don't know. Not to mention the massive censorship campaign going on in many sites where people want to discuss this, sure it's legal censorship but it doesn't make it right, and in fact some censorship might even be Ilegal, like the guy who made a video this topic and got it flagged with a false DMCA claim in order to shut him up, even Totalbiscuit wrote to the guy in support, having been DMCAd himself in the past.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Chaz

[Zoraptor]

The DMCA was probably legitimate, as the original video did use game footage from Depression Quest. Bit of an own goal in any case, due to the Streisand Effect.

[Oerwinde]

My understanding was the video used one of the steam screenshots rather than footage from the "game"

[kirottu]

Fedora has recently become a term for "filthy, unwashed geek who thinks he's cool and important" that I thought it was specifically associated with that specific type of 4chan type misogynist, that guy who is scared that girls playing with his toys hurts his masculinity. Apparently both sides use it on each other, though, so it might just end with the bit in quotes.

 

I'd hesitate to call it a leak, the ex was the journalist and he was essentially [word for promiscuous woman]-shaming her. The fact that the supposed "Kotaku" review that Zoe Quinn apparently slept with a journalist for to get doesn't even exist doesn't seem to deter anyone. This was a jealous ex-boyfriend publicly shaming his ex and the public picked up on it and twisted it into their own agendas, upon which everyone freaked out and now everyone involved is trying to milk it for publicity, including Quinn herself and that Phil Fish dude. It is a soap opera that ridiculous fundamentalists have decided to be violently angry about.

 

There is no issue here, it has nothing to do with inclusivity in games. It has to do with sexism, but not with sexism in games. At most it is a note that some journalists may not have integrity - big whoop. Journalists haven't had integrity since before I was born. There is no right side to this debate and the whole thing needs to be dropped like a hot potato as other people's sex life is none of our freaking business. I didn't care when Clinton got a BJ, I'm sure as hell not going to give a hoot when some lady whose name I did not even know before this nonsense made it into mainstream media gave one.

 

Yes, there is no review, but there is couple of articles where Grayson speaks favourably about Depression Quest. When this was just about zoepost(ex-boyfriends site) no one cared. It was about month after when mundanematt video came out and taken out that started this whole thing.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2ejs7v/gaming_journalists_patricia_hernandez_of_kotaku/

This is what this is about currently.

 

And it's about the double standard how women are treated in gaming press. Year ago when Zoe claimed to be harassed by wizardchan every major gaming news site run with it. All they had was two mean post on wizardchan site and Zoes twitter claims that someone is calling her everyday. This was proof enough how gamers are bad, women hating scum.

 

No major gaming news site is talking about the fine you capitalist charity for women developers. Not how 4chan is their biggest donor. They are only interested in reporting negative news about women in gaming.   

Edited August 26, 2014 by kirottu

[Orogun01]

Meh, that spoilered stuff is suggestive only. If I'm going to hang someone for such things I want a bit more conclusiveness than a quarter of a head in a picture and some people obviously knowing each other. Frankly, I'd be surprised if games journalists didn't know and interact with a lot of game devs, that is legitimately a part of what covering games entails. I'd accept that it certainly looks like several of the other 5 were genuinely compromised, I just don't find the case against Grayson compelling- though I'll admit that 'zero evidence' is a bit strong, zero compelling evidence would be more accurate.

 

Easy for me to not care anyway, I actively avoid reading Kotaku and was not exactly enamoured with Grayson from his RPS output.

There is usually not conclusive evidence with most accusations, there is something however called the "appearance of propriety" (I learned about it like 4 days ago) meaning that even if the suspicions of  having a bias are unfounded you must still recluse yourself to avoid suspicion tainting public opinion. People have gotten fired for less but his boss also drinks the same Kool Aid, hence the root of the problem.

[BruceVC]

 

Bruce actually disowned the whole mess, and he has stayed out of it too. Appropriate kudos must be given and there's no need to drag him in.

 

And to be fair to Nathan Grayson- who I dislike from his time on RPS- there has been zero evidence that he broke ethics either.

I know, I was kind of hoping to lure him out.

 

 

 

 

No I've said what I need to say about this, TN is basically echoing what I feel about this matter.

 

So I won't descend from my SJ lair to partake further in this debate

[Lexx]

The only thing that is bugging me is how Zoe Quinn is all like "you must be like this and this or you are a filthy rapist" and then does exactly the same. Based on her words / laws / whatever, she would be a rapist as well. It's the very hypocritical shait that annoys the hell out of me here, and not that vidya game journalists are usually very bad at being journalists.

[Bryy]

Wait, a disgruntled gamer made an incoherent thread with no point whatsoever about how he doesn't like how indie game devs deal with publicity? And one of the targets happens to be female?

 

I've never seen this before.

 

Org nailed it. No reason for this to exist. I'm sick of people jumping down Phil Fish's throat because they don't like that he gets emotional.

[kirottu]

http://j-k-degoya.tumblr.com/post/95794097811/the-zoe-quinn-situation-really-is-about-feminism-and

 

Another good, albeit long, read. It goes meta from time to time.

[Bryy]

http://j-k-degoya.tumblr.com/post/95794097811/the-zoe-quinn-situation-really-is-about-feminism-and

 

Another good, albeit long, read. It goes meta from time to time.

Good read. All too often, when this **** comes to light, it gets swept under the rug. I'm looking at you, Josh Mattingly.

[Monte Carlo]

Two thoughts -

 

(a) It is instructive to watch how these twentysomethings are conducting themselves, reflexively using the Internet as a medium to manage / resolve / conduct this whole affair. It's like using a shovel to re-pot a bonsai tree.

 

(b) I'm reminded of the old saw that academic disputes are so bitter because there's so little at stake.

 

Kirottu, the article by the woman who used the word 'Patriarchy' a couple of paragraphs in? It was TL;DR could someone summarize please?

[Chilloutman]

Can someone in short explain me what is going on? I am quite lost

[Barothmuk]

This is the explanation I found on RPGCodex so make of it what you will.

 

 

 

 

Going purely off that I can't even pretend to care about this so-called controversy.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Barothmuk

[BruceVC]

The only thing I care about is this event is being used by some to try to undermine the significance of the feminist movement and the importance of gender equality. I hear some comments like "you see this highlights just what hypocrites Feminists are"

 

We need to realize what Zoe did does not reflect what the campaign for gender equality stands for. This was her personal choice  to sleep around and this has basically destroyed her credibility going forward. Lets not use this to try to sling mud at the general  feminist and gender equality movement

[pmp10]

Can someone in short explain me what is going on? I am quite lost

By now it's safe to say that nobody knows.

Maybe in a month we will get a decent investigation and write-up.

Right now there is a new conspiracy theory every day.

[Blarghagh]

The RPG Codex explanation is nonsense, as you would (and should) expect from that site. I especially enjoy how it says TotalBiscuit teamed up with JonTron to fight Zoe Quinn, when TotalBiscuit has publicly distanced himself from the entire thing from the get-go.

[BruceVC]

The RPG Codex explanation is nonsense, as you would (and should) expect from that site. I especially enjoy how it says TotalBiscuit teamed up with JonTron to fight Zoe Quinn, when TotalBiscuit has publicly distanced himself from the entire thing from the get-go.

 

Yip typical RPG Codex stratagem, it isn't helping the situation and is creating more misinformation

[NWN_babaYaga]

It would help alot if people in the press and the gaming would stop calling Quinn and fraudster Anita game developers. They are not ! Fraudster Anita is a front runner for the so called feminists in gaming talking about her own issues and Quinn is someone with no skills in game design and now spitting BS around as if she have any credits. Both are nothing but posers, i did more stuff then both of them all together in my free time and never made any press or money. Even in 2 years if i now stop modding i will still have done much more then them) Many thousand modders did much more without ever asking for anything. Think about that for a moment!

 

I´m sick of people claiming to be something they are clearly not.

 

If anyone show me a track record of stuff they have done other then "writing" mediocre nonsense and making stuff up well... i´m ready to change my oppinion. Until then they are the posers number one . counter Strike mappers back then have people called out for making things up, stealing other peoples work and claiming to be a mapper... now a days thanks to that SJW BS everything seems to be possible. You just have to have some people in the background for you to make publicity and voila you are a game developer. It´s not only laughable at best it is an offense against anyone who DO stuff.

 

And yes her "interactive book" is for free. F*** that. She already made more money pretending to be something by just being a so called feminist.

Edited August 26, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Longknife]

The only thing that is bugging me is how Zoe Quinn is all like "you must be like this and this or you are a filthy rapist" and then does exactly the same. Based on her words / laws / whatever, she would be a rapist as well. It's the very hypocritical shait that annoys the hell out of me here, and not that vidya game journalists are usually very bad at being journalists.

 

 

Ignore her. Honestly.

 

If gamers want to be taken seriously and actually confront the industry with this, it'd be best to ignore her. Mark my words: she is the one the very people gamers want to hold accountable are going to be hiding behind, because there's at least a fairly well-known stereotype that gamers are sexist to some degree. "Fighting Zoe" is not a battle worth fighting by any means. She's ALREADY going to be held accountable to a degree:.her name will forever be associated with this scandal, and should she try to develop and sell games, customers are free to vote with their wallets and not purchase. She is COMPLETELY powerless against the consumer base and at their mercy. Meanwhile she serves as this terrific shield that claims the scandal is about sexism rather than corruption.

 

They wanna play that game? Pro-tip: Ignore the woman. Ignore her, don't comment on her, don't insult her (besides personally from what I've seen she seems fairly charming and intelligent, though obviously people have every right to be disgusted should the accusations and theories be true), and instead focus on the journalists she was allegedly close to. Focus on their employers. She's a mere pawn in all of this and gamers would be foolish to focus her.

 

The journalists are the ones people can't exactly "attack" with their wallets by not buying their products. At best you can boycott those websites, but it's a little more complex because unlike Zoe, they've got the support of both game developers and advertisers to try and subvert any boycott attempts. If you want those specific journalists, make it clear to their employers and I promise you they'd be more than willing to fire them as scapegoats in the scandal. If you want the companies to answer for this...? Gamers might wanna grow a pair and learn to boycott.

[Malcador]

I'm sick of people jumping down Phil Fish's throat because they don't like that he gets emotional.

If you mean act like a 8 year old, sure. Also, what's wrong with the Codex ? Well, not that I'd expect the likes of TrueNeutral to like it, but I doubt the site's organized so much as to have stratagems

 

Hilarious amount of e-stalking now as people are cross referencing people's twitters and FB pages.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Malcador

[Zoraptor]

Oh dear, and Bruce was doing so well. Now he's back to "I'm leaving the thread forever. Or ten minutes, whichever is longer"

 

There is usually not conclusive evidence with most accusations, there is something however called the "appearance of propriety" (I learned about it like 4 days ago) meaning that even if the suspicions of  having a bias are unfounded you must still recluse yourself to avoid suspicion tainting public opinion. People have gotten fired for less but his boss also drinks the same Kool Aid, hence the root of the problem.

 

 

Yeah, but nobody would think there was significant impropriety there if they hadn't become an item. That isn't really asking for 'appearance of propriety', at the time, it's asking for retroactive appearance of propriety due to something that happened in the future. Journalists and devs meet and socialise at conventions, it's part of the reason for having them.

 

My understanding was the video used one of the steam screenshots rather than footage from the "game"

 

Given the nature of the game footage and screenshots are essentially the same thing. But in any case the screenshots are still copyrighted.

[BruceVC]

Oh dear, and Bruce was doing so well. Now he's back to "I'm leaving the thread forever. Or ten minutes, whichever is longer"

 

 

 

I tried to stay away but the allure was too strong when it became clear this was an attack from some on the campaign for gender equality

[Malcador]

I tried to stay away but the allure was too strong when it became clear this was an attack from some on the campaign for gender equality

It is ? Thought it was just a campaign against one woman.

[Amentep]

Can someone in short explain me what is going on? I am quite lost

• A guy broke up with his girlfriend and posted the "why" to a website with screencaps of texts and tweets.
• Girlfriend is a game developer who (according to the posted screenies) admitted to a relationship with a game journalist who wrote positively about her game while still in a relationship with guy.
• Internet explodes.

At least that's what I've gotten out of it.