Ukraine discussion

[Shallow]

 

These are states which were in bad state before becoming part of soviet union, where is Polad? where is Czechoslovakia? where is East Germany in that, where is Jugoslavia? Skipped to not ruin your statistics? xD

 

None of those states were a part of the Soviet Union, they were merely satelites, asking how the people of those lands felt about being a part of the Soviet Union is like asking South Vietnam how it felt being a part of USA. If you want to call the survey on selective bias it'd be far better to focus on the baltic states, who generally hate Russia, and to be fair, the survey also left out Uzbekistan, a country that's generally quite friendly with Russia.

[Chilloutman]

 

These are states which were in bad state before becoming part of soviet union, where is Polad? where is Czechoslovakia? where is East Germany in that, where is Jugoslavia? Skipped to not ruin your statistics? xD

None of those states were a part of the Soviet Union, they were merely satelites, asking how the people of those lands felt about being a part of the Soviet Union is like asking South Vietnam how it felt being a part of USA. If you want to call the survey on selective bias it'd be far better to focus on the baltic states, who generally hate Russia, and to be fair, the survey also left out Uzbekistan, a country that's generally quite friendly with Russia.

 

WHAT? these states were main part of soviet union, there was all manufacturing Soviet union needed to survive. Those were economical powerhouses of soviet union. What do you have in uzbekistan? goats? lool

[Barothmuk]

These are states which were in bad state before becoming part of soviet union, where is Polad? where is Czechoslovakia? where is East Germany in that, where is Jugoslavia? Skipped to not ruin your statistics? xD

Err, no. Nostalgia for the Soviet Union amongst the former Soviet states (and satellites) is pretty common knowledge so I picked from the first article I found.

 

It'd be nice if it did also show the opinions those 4 countries had on the dissolution of the Soviet Union however that was by no means necessary to disprove your point. You said 90% of people hated it. This is evidently wrong.

 

Now for those countries not mentioned East-Germany, and to a much lesser extent Poland, have a concept known as Ostalgie which refers to the cultural phenomenon of missing the late Soviet system and Yugoslavia is quite well known for its continued reverence for Tito.

 

Now because I get the feeling some are being a little thick, this is not support for the late Soviet style system nor its leaders, I'm merely pointing out your historical and cultural ignorance.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Barothmuk

[Chilloutman]

 

These are states which were in bad state before becoming part of soviet union, where is Polad? where is Czechoslovakia? where is East Germany in that, where is Jugoslavia? Skipped to not ruin your statistics? xD

Err, no. Nostalgia for the Soviet Union amongst the former Soviet states (and satellites) is pretty common knowledge so I picked from the first article I found.

 

It'd be nice if it did also show the opinions those 4 countries had on the dissolution of the Soviet Union however that was by no means necessary to disprove your point. You said 90% of people will tell you it was worse then now. This is evidently wrong.

 

Now for those countries not mentioned East-Germany, and to a much lesser extent Poland, have a concept known as Ostalgie which refers to the cultural phenomenon of missing the late Soviet system and Yugoslavia is quite well known for its continued reverence for Tito.

 

Now because I get the feeling some are being a little thick, this is not support for the late Soviet style system nor its leaders, I'm merely pointing out your historical and cultural ignorance.

 

No you just pick states which actualy gain something during soviet reign, those which suffered are out. Not to mention that those states have high russian population

Edited September 4, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Barothmuk]

Oh you.

[Zoraptor]

No you just pick states which actualy gain something during soviet reign, those which suffered are out

 

 

You really need to chillout, man.

 

If you're admitting that you can make a fairly extensive list of places that benefited from being in the USSR/ soviet bloc then your 90% claim is already cooked, and you're just agreeing that it is. Best not to over egg the pudding in the first place, certainly best not to keep cracking them.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Zoraptor

[obyknven]

 

 

WHAT? these states were main part of soviet union, there was all manufacturing Soviet union needed to survive. Those were economical powerhouses of soviet union. What do you have in uzbekistan? goats? lool

 

Ignorant Europeans so ignorant

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%A3%D0%B7%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/uzbekistan.html

 

Industrialization increased after the transfer during World War II of many industries from European Russia to the less vulnerable Uzbek region. Machine building, metallurgy, food processing, and the manufacture of chemicals, fertilizer, and building materials are leading industries. Uzbekistan has more than 20 hydroelectric power plants. The Trans-Caspian RR and the Great Uzbek Highway are the republic's main transportation routes.

Uzbekistan is rich in mineral resources. The Fergana Valley, an important cotton, silk, and wine region, is also the site of oil fields. Western Uzbekistan has large natural-gas deposits. Coal, gold, zinc, copper, tungsten, molybdenum, lead, fluorspar, and uranium are also found.

 

 

There is a large airplane plant that was built during the Soviet era – Tashkent Chkalov Aviation Manufacturing Plant or ТАПОиЧ in Russian. The plant originated during World War II, when production facilities were evacuated south and east to avoid capture by advancing Nazi forces. Until the late 1980s, the plant was one of the leading airplane production centers in the USSR.

 

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Uzbek+SSR

 

Uzbekistan’s economy developed more rapidly than that of the USSR as a whole. During the prewar five-year plans, more than 500 industrial enterprises of various types were built in the Uzbek SSR, including the Tashsel’mash plant, the Tashkent Textile Combine, and the Chirchik Electrochemical Combine. Petroleum production increased from 13,000 tons in 1913 to 119,000 tons in 1940. New, socialist cities were built around large industrial enterprises, and old cities, such as Chirchik, Bekabad, and Kattakurgan, were modernized. In 1940 the republic had a total of 756,300 industrial and nonindustrial workers, 31 percent of whom were women.

...

After the WW2, hundreds of new, modern plants, mines, factories, and oil fields, all supplied with the latest equipment, were established in the republic. In 1956, Uzbekistan produced twice as much electric power as all of tsarist Russia in 1913. The Golod-naia Steppe was opened up to agricultural development. In 1956, Uzbekistan delivered 2,857,000 tons of cotton to the state. The Uzbek SSR was awarded the Order of Lenin in that year for the second time in recognition of its successes in the development of agriculture. Uzbekistan has become a highly developed industrial and agricultural socialist republic. Together with all the peoples of the USSR, the working people of Uzbekistan, as members of a developed socialist society, are laboring to create a material and technical basis for communism.

The Uzbek national economy and culture continued to advance in the 1960’s and 1970’s. A large chemical industry is being created. During the postwar five-year plans, large gas pipelines running between Bukhara and the Urals and between Middle Asia and Central Russia went into service. The mechanization of agriculture has been increasing at a rapid rate. The extensive development of irrigation has played an enormous role in increasing cotton output.

 

 

 

Now tell me cool stories about mighty Baltic states and other East European economic giants.

[Chilloutman]

 

No you just pick states which actualy gain something during soviet reign, those which suffered are out

 

You really need to chillout, man.

 

If you're admitting that you can make a fairly extensive list of places that benefited from being in the USSR/ soviet bloc then your 90% claim is already cooked, and you're just agreeing that it is. Best not to over egg the pudding in the first place, certainly best not to keep cracking them.

 

Ok I have to state tha I am talking about european states, not asian ones. I am chilled out on many things but not about crimes commited against whole states.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Shallow]

WHAT? these states were main part of soviet union, there was all manufacturing Soviet union needed to survive. Those were economical powerhouses of soviet union. What do you have in uzbekistan? goats? lool

 

Nope, they were satelites, regardless of their importance in the eastern bloc they were still satelites and not a part of the Soviet Union, and as Oby said, Uzbekistan became quite industrialized, thanks to the Soviet Union.

[Chilloutman]

 

WHAT? these states were main part of soviet union, there was all manufacturing Soviet union needed to survive. Those were economical powerhouses of soviet union. What do you have in uzbekistan? goats? lool

Nope, they were satelites, regardless of their importance in the eastern bloc they were still satelites and not a part of the Soviet Union, and as Oby said, Uzbekistan became quite industrialized, thanks to the Soviet Union.

 

Well belive in what you want, as long as russians stay as far as possible from where I live I am happy and I am sure that rest of 'satelites' share same point of view.

[obyknven]

Well belive in what you want, as long as russians stay as far as possible from where I live I am happy and I am sure that rest of 'satelites' share same point of view.

 

Ha-ha, noway, in modern world Russian everywhere. Especially in East Europe. For example i planned buy home in Czech republic and....

[Chilloutman]

 

Well belive in what you want, as long as russians stay as far as possible from where I live I am happy and I am sure that rest of 'satelites' share same point of view.

Ha-ha, noway, in modern world Russian everywhere. Especially in East Europe. For example i planned buy home in Czech republic and....

 

Oh, how so? Russia is not nice enough? 

[obyknven]

 

 

Ha-ha, noway, in modern world Russian everywhere. Especially in East Europe. For example i planned buy home in Czech republic and....

 

Oh, how so? Russia is not nice enough? 

 

Wat? I just want periodically visit Czech Republic and play into Russian invasion with Czech girls in my personal dungeon. 

[Gromnir]

is always naughty when people post only part of an article

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx

 

"Overall, residents who are more educated are less likely to say the collapse harmed their country and more likely to say it benefited them."

 

o' really?

 

"Residents who say that "most people" in their country are afraid to openly express their political views are more likely to say that the collapse harmed their country than those who say that "no one" is afraid. This suggests the freedom they thought they might have after the fall of the Soviet Union has not materialized -- and in some cases, the situation may be even worse."

 

so, is not that things were better before ussr, or that things were good in ussr, but that power vaccum made things worse? surprise?  youth is also a major factor according to gallup pollsters. understandably, people who lost pensions and healthcare had an immediate stake in the loss o' ussr.

 

"Adults between the ages of 15 and 44 -- some of whom were not even born or were very young at the time of the breakup -- are nearly three times as likely as those 65 and older to say the collapse benefited their countries. The picture is similar in all countries except Georgia, where residents in all age groups are as likely to say it was a benefit. Older residents in all 11 countries whose safety nets, such as guaranteed pensions and free healthcare, largely disappeared when the union dissolved are more likely to say the breakup harmed their countries."

 

when a person not wanna link entire article, it is always good to ask: why?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

Yes, because excluding those over 65 and the less educated would be totally fair, only young educated people who agree with one's preconceived notions count. One just wishes one could find a way to exclude them from voting as well. Well, there is no reason to exclude them, and their views are as relevant as anyone else's are for whether 90% of people are glad ("Final (sic) word on that - ask people in post soviet block how they feel about them - 90% of people will tell you how much they sux,") that the USSR broke up.

 

You haven't even picked holes- indeed, you can make a more valid* argument for excluding those negative voting young people as at least the older ones have something to compare against while the young ones don't. It's exactly what you did last time with stats, try to exclude everything that disagreed with you as irrelevant. And that's not how stats work, I'm afraid.

 

*which is still invalid, it's just less arbitrary

Edited September 4, 2014 by Zoraptor

[Gromnir]

Yes, because excluding those over 65 and the less educated would be totally fair, only young educated people who agree with one's preconceived notions count. One just wishes one could find a way to exclude them from voting as well. Well, there is no reason to exclude them, and their views are as relevant as anyone else's are for whether 90% of people are glad ("Final (sic) word on that - ask people in post soviet block how they feel about them - 90% of people will tell you how much they sux,") that the USSR broke up.

 

You haven't even picked holes- indeed, you can make a more valid* argument for excluding those negative voting young people as at least the older ones have something to compare against while the young ones don't. It's exactly what you did last time with stats, try to exclude everything that disagreed with you as irrelevant. And that's not how stats work, I'm afraid.

 

*which is still invalid, it's just less arbitrary

leaving out relevant information is, at best, misleading.  you may not personally be swayed (HA! big surprise there, eh?) but is always funny when we see only tiny fraction o' a poll or story linked. makes us wonder why. you either don't have the same level o' curiosity or discernment or... whatever.

 

*shrug*

 

the missing information were clear relevant, which is why gallup included such information. baro did not include.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

It's simply not relevant information. It was a table of stats from a survey, providing refutation of "90% of people will tell you how much they sux". Not 90% of people in the future, not 90% of young people, not 90% of young educated people with a university degree, not 90% of people who agree with me; "90% of people". The distinctions you're trying to make are not relevant rebuttal. The demographic differences may be relevant to a/ other different argument(s)- eg that attitudes are changing- which is why they were provided by the survey team. But for current attitudes of the people overall, they are utterly irrelevant.

 

To illustrate, there are only three alternatives interpretations possible and such demographic information is irrelevant in each. Either 'people' refers to a country, ie 90% of countries, or it refers to 90% of individuals in each country, or it refers to 90% of individuals irrespective of country. In all three interpretations the assertion is debunked wholly and solely by raw survey data, since specific demographic examination is not required to determine the relevant results so long as proper methodology is used. Now, you can try to massage the stats and slap caveats like "in the future" or "but educated people", but that is just a sop to protect (incorrect) preconceived notions, and has no rigour whatsoever beyond being a defence of what you want to be true. 

[Gromnir]

It's simply not relevant information.

sure it is. the reason gallup included is 'cause it is relevant. regardless, the guy who linked the poll strategic left out information that were included with the poll. is misleading. at best it is misleading. 

 

you not find relevant? HA! again, am not surprised, but at least you have the information in front of you to now make that decision, an informed (if irrational) decision. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[obyknven]

Ukrainian madskilz

[obyknven]

Someone make this video at last... Ukrainian propagandistic hysteria .

http://youtu.be/j4-ws324pTE

Just chronology of Ukrainian official statements about Russian invasion.

28.02.2014 - 09.03.2014 Russia officially declare war to Ukraine! (but nobody known it exept Ukrainians)

12.04.2014 - 16.04.2014 Russian troops invade Ukraine! Many times!)))

13.07.2014- No-no, Russian troops invade Ukraine really now!

16.07.2014 - Russia declare war to Ukraine! What? Do they declare war yet few months ago and constantly invade Ukraine? Never hear this, but this is real declaration of war now!

12.08.2014 - Yet another Russian invasion into Ukraine!

22.08.2014 - Russians send humanitarian convoy to Ukraine! Moskow use them  for begining of invasion

25.08.2014 - Previous times it's false alarm but Russia really invade Ukraine now

26.08.2014 - Russia invade Ukraine now, trust us.

27.08.2014 - Ukrainian president have nice meeting with Putin in company of EU and TC officials in Minsk. They talk about how stop civil war in Ukraine, but say nothing about Russian invasions and war between Russia and Ukraine. But when Poroshenko return to Kiev...

28.08.2014 - Russia invade Ukraine really really.

 

 

Ukraine is country who constantly cry: "Wolf-Wolf! Russian invasion". It's obvious, but strange thing is when western media periodically notice this crazy Ukrainian propaganda and begin shout "Russian invasion!" too, it's just unbelievable non-competence.

[BruceVC]

Yes, because excluding those over 65 and the less educated would be totally fair, only young educated people who agree with one's preconceived notions count. One just wishes one could find a way to exclude them from voting as well. Well, there is no reason to exclude them, and their views are as relevant as anyone else's are for whether 90% of people are glad ("Final (sic) word on that - ask people in post soviet block how they feel about them - 90% of people will tell you how much they sux,") that the USSR broke up.

 

You haven't even picked holes- indeed, you can make a more valid* argument for excluding those negative voting young people as at least the older ones have something to compare against while the young ones don't. It's exactly what you did last time with stats, try to exclude everything that disagreed with you as irrelevant. And that's not how stats work, I'm afraid.

 

*which is still invalid, it's just less arbitrary

 

I don't mean to sound rude and dismissive but let the deadbeat economic countries like Belarus and Moldova say they preferred life under the USSR. Its a telling fact about the reality of Communism  that the really successful countries that use to be part of the USSR, like Poland, Czech and the East Germans,  don't want anything to do with it and vociferously are opposed to Communism and Putins regional ambitions

Edited September 6, 2014 by BruceVC

[Sarex]

really successful countries that use to be part of the USSR, like Poland, Czech and the East Germans

 

You literally have no idea what you are talking about when you post things like this.

[obyknven]

Ukrainian Not-Nazi battalion Azov. They are good guys, just typical modern freedom fighters!  

http://youtu.be/8fZKkBXEG-g

Why these stupid Russians constantly talk about Nazi coup in Kiev?

 

Happily good guys from NATO don't worry about these stupid outdated political concepts (actually they cooperate hardly with not-Nazi from beginning, even more, NATO created ex-not-Nazi as copypaste from not-Nazi III Reich ).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-2746783/Ukraine-arms-five-NATO-allies--Poroshenko-aide.html

NATO do want help to Ukrainians fight against yourself, they send arms to Ukrainian regime for it. Yep Western governments support non-Nazi, it's absolutely normal - Operation Gladio etc. 

[Gorgon]

I wonder how long that bit of misdirection iis going to fly. Kiev fascist goverment bla bla bla.  Are the Russian people that stupid ?

[BruceVC]

I wonder how long that bit of misdirection iis going to fly. Kiev fascist goverment bla bla bla.  Are the Russian people that stupid ?

 

Its not that they are  stupid, its more the fact they have convinced themselves of a certain narrative. Putins propaganda machinery is always impressive. Also its not like Russia has any effective independent news channels that give the average Russian a different perspective. Its Putins and RT way or its the highway in Russia at the moment