Ukraine discussion

[BruceVC]

I don't think Ukriane is relevant anymore, the conflict has wound down to a semi stagnant state, yet the US and EU push on with sanctions. That tells me that some new goals have been set and I'm pretty certain they're to do with engineering a colored revolution in Russia.

 

We've seen how those go and sanctions are just the first step. 

 

Yes the sanctions will continue as Russia is still interfering in Ukraine. This is the expected and necessary  course of action from the West

 

I'm not sure if a requirement for the sanctions to end is Russia giving back Crimea to the legitimate government in Ukraine, I cant see this happening so there may have to be some sort of compromise around this

[obyknven]

 

Yes the sanctions will continue as Russia is still interfering in Ukraine. This is the expected and necessary  course of action from the West

 

I'm not sure if a requirement for the sanctions to end is Russia giving back Crimea to the legitimate government in Ukraine, I cant see this happening so there may have to be some sort of compromise around this

 

For us it's looks like Europe do want be taken by force... Defenseless Europe spread legs  and loudly scolding us... Some sort of invention. 

 

[Chilloutman]

 

Yes the sanctions will continue as Russia is still interfering in Ukraine. This is the expected and necessary  course of action from the West

 

I'm not sure if a requirement for the sanctions to end is Russia giving back Crimea to the legitimate government in Ukraine, I cant see this happening so there may have to be some sort of compromise around this

For us it's looks like Europe do want be taken by force... Defenseless Europe spread legs  and loudly scolding us... Some sort of invention. 

 

WTF? How Europe expressed such wish? Did someone say come and occupy us? Or is it just your mental disorder?

Edited December 12, 2014 by Chilloutman

[Rostere]

 

 

I don't think Ukriane is relevant anymore, the conflict has wound down to a semi stagnant state, yet the US and EU push on with sanctions. That tells me that some new goals have been set and I'm pretty certain they're to do with engineering a colored revolution in Russia.

 

We've seen how those go and sanctions are just the first step. 

 

Well, obviously things are not going back to normal until the situation in Eastern Ukraine is settled. Duh.

 

 

Its a semi frozen conflict, its not going to be settled. It can go on like this for years.

 

 

The obvious conclusion from that is that the sanctions can go on for just as long.

[Sarex]

The obvious conclusion from that is that the sanctions can go on for just as long.

 

So Russia finds different markets to supplement the lost ones and presto the West shot itself in the face.

[obyknven]

Novorossia stronk!

http://youtu.be/ERKJFlGsFU0

 

http://youtu.be/0PAbaLyNlKk

[obyknven]

Resistance in Odessa.

http://youtu.be/EzQAVg7nIus

 

http://youtu.be/-vnXAvgBN3w

reminder about Odessa massacre

http://scgnews.com/the-odessa-massacre-what-really-happened

 

[Rostere]

 

The obvious conclusion from that is that the sanctions can go on for just as long.

 

So Russia finds different markets to supplement the lost ones and presto the West shot itself in the face.

 

Who knows, but I wasn't expressing any opinion on that. I only meant to answer to "LOL WY DO SANCTIONS KEEP ON GOING?!!!". It's pretty obvious why the sanctions are in place, and what could end them. If there is some sort of agreement between Russia and Ukraine on Donetsk, Luhansk, and the protection of minority rights and regional autonomy then the sanctions will probably be lifted in a second or two.

[Sarex]

Who knows, but I wasn't expressing any opinion on that. I only meant to answer to "LOL WY DO SANCTIONS KEEP ON GOING?!!!". It's pretty obvious why the sanctions are in place, and what could end them. If there is some sort of agreement between Russia and Ukraine on Donetsk, Luhansk, and the protection of minority rights and regional autonomy then the sanctions will probably be lifted in a second or two.

 

I really doubt the sanctions would be lifted no matter what happened.

[BruceVC]

 

Who knows, but I wasn't expressing any opinion on that. I only meant to answer to "LOL WY DO SANCTIONS KEEP ON GOING?!!!". It's pretty obvious why the sanctions are in place, and what could end them. If there is some sort of agreement between Russia and Ukraine on Donetsk, Luhansk, and the protection of minority rights and regional autonomy then the sanctions will probably be lifted in a second or two.

 

I really doubt the sanctions would be lifted no matter what happened.

 

 

Your cynicism towards the West blinds your logic Sarex

 

 

Of course the West wants Russia back as a contributing member of the global economy. They are an important player, but we can't have them back at the expense of Russia drawing new geographical borders to suit its growing hegemony.

 

 

I am confident Russia will chose economic imperative over nationalistic fervour over the next few years and stop interfering in sovereign countries, like Ukraine

[Rostere]

 

Who knows, but I wasn't expressing any opinion on that. I only meant to answer to "LOL WY DO SANCTIONS KEEP ON GOING?!!!". It's pretty obvious why the sanctions are in place, and what could end them. If there is some sort of agreement between Russia and Ukraine on Donetsk, Luhansk, and the protection of minority rights and regional autonomy then the sanctions will probably be lifted in a second or two.

 

I really doubt the sanctions would be lifted no matter what happened.

 

I think you have gravely and completely misunderstood the motivations behind the interests which are behind this. There is only one prime interest of every industry - making money. Doing business with Russia at the moment (err... before the crisis) was pretty much a win for every industry. From Russia you import the raw materials needed to build more refined stuff, which you sell with a surplus. To Russia you export the stuff they don't build/grow themselves. Making up sanctions and blocking free trade is the worst thing a capitalist society can do to itself. That is especially true with regards to the economic "elites" of these societies. Believe me when I say that if it is anything these elites want, it is global peace and global free trade.

 

Previously, the argument was "LOL SANCTIONS GONNA DO NOTHING, SHOOT YOUR SELF IN FOOT!!!", now the argument seems to be "OH POOR RUSSIA, WHY WEST CONTINUE WITH SANCTION?!!". The truth is of course somewhere between these two. Both economies are hurt equally bad in absolute terms. But because the economy of EU+US is so much bigger than that of Russia, the end average effect on the former is only about 1/16 of the effect on Russia, procentually speaking (this is before taking account mitigation efforts by writing new trade contracts and sanctions in the banking sector which works somewhat differently). Nevertheless, you can be sure that the lobby groups of pretty much every industry that is affected is nagging politicians to remove the sanctions every day.

[obyknven]

 

 

Yes the sanctions will continue as Russia is still interfering in Ukraine. This is the expected and necessary  course of action from the West

 

I'm not sure if a requirement for the sanctions to end is Russia giving back Crimea to the legitimate government in Ukraine, I cant see this happening so there may have to be some sort of compromise around this

For us it's looks like Europe do want be taken by force... Defenseless Europe spread legs  and loudly scolding us... Some sort of invention. 

 

WTF? How Europe expressed such wish? Did someone say come and occupy us? Or is it just your mental disorder?

 

 

 

By supporting of our enemies of course.  Europe also is easy target, except tiny US expeditionary forces (their numbers too small for real treat though) all European armies is a joke. In other words subslaves of US forgot their place and provoke Russia to BDSM games, this is just classic situation in if you known.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/buchanan/a-foreign-policy-of-russophobia/

We seem to support every ethnic group that secedes from Russia, but no ethnic group that secedes from a successor state. This is rank Russophobia masquerading as democratic principle.

 

What do the people of Crimea, Transnistria, Georgia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Luhansk, or Donetsk want? Do we really know? Do we care?

 

And what have the Russians done to support secessionist movements to compare with our 78-day bombing of Serbia to rip away her cradle province of Kosovo, which had been Serbian land before we were a nation?

 

H.R. 758 charges Russia with an “invasion” of Crimea. But there was no air, land, or sea invasion. The Russians were already there by treaty and the reannexation of Crimea, which had belonged to Russia since Catherine the Great, was effected with no loss of life. Compare how Putin retrieved Crimea, with the way Lincoln retrieved the seceded states of the Confederacy—a four-year war in which 620,000 Americans perished.

 

H.R. 758 calls the President of Russia an “authoritarian” ruler of a corrupt regime that came to power through election fraud and rules by way of repression. Is this fair, just or wise? After all, Putin has twice the approval rating in Russia as President Obama does here, not to mention the approval rating of our Congress.

 

Damning Russian “aggression,” the House demands that Russia get out of Crimea, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria, calls on Obama to end all military cooperation with Russia, impose “visa bans, targeted asset freezes, sectoral sanctions,” and send “lethal … defense articles” to Ukraine.

 

This is the sort of ultimatum that led to Pearl Harbor.

War is expected.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

Who knows, but I wasn't expressing any opinion on that. I only meant to answer to "LOL WY DO SANCTIONS KEEP ON GOING?!!!". It's pretty obvious why the sanctions are in place, and what could end them. If there is some sort of agreement between Russia and Ukraine on Donetsk, Luhansk, and the protection of minority rights and regional autonomy then the sanctions will probably be lifted in a second or two.

 

I really doubt the sanctions would be lifted no matter what happened.

 

I think you have gravely and completely misunderstood the motivations behind the interests which are behind this. There is only one prime interest of every industry - making money. Doing business with Russia at the moment (err... before the crisis) was pretty much a win for every industry. From Russia you import the raw materials needed to build more refined stuff, which you sell with a surplus. To Russia you export the stuff they don't build/grow themselves. Making up sanctions and blocking free trade is the worst thing a capitalist society can do to itself. That is especially true with regards to the economic "elites" of these societies. Believe me when I say that if it is anything these elites want, it is global peace and global free trade.

 

Previously, the argument was "LOL SANCTIONS GONNA DO NOTHING, SHOOT YOUR SELF IN FOOT!!!", now the argument seems to be "OH POOR RUSSIA, WHY WEST CONTINUE WITH SANCTION?!!". The truth is of course somewhere between these two. Both economies are hurt equally bad in absolute terms. But because the economy of EU+US is so much bigger than that of Russia, the end average effect on the former is only about 1/16 of the effect on Russia, procentually speaking (this is before taking account mitigation efforts by writing new trade contracts and sanctions in the banking sector which works somewhat differently). Nevertheless, you can be sure that the lobby groups of pretty much every industry that is affected is nagging politicians to remove the sanctions every day.

 

 

The question is, in case you haven't understood at this point, why would EU instigate economic warfare with Russia that won't amount to anything except hurting both sides, over Ukraine. How is it in the EU's interest to damage economic ties with Russia over an american/NATO project.

 

The casual answer would be: well they're all in NATO, so there's some cooperative benefit to trying to take over Ukraine and push the Russians from it.

 

Except there isn't, at the end of the day, Russia will still be there, as will trade deficits and bad blood and a bankrupt, unstable, semi-fascist government "leading" 50 million people from one loan package to another. In the best case scenario european predatory businesses will gobble up some of Ukrainian industries, what the americans let the have anyway. That money will go to private pockets while the average EU citizen gains nothing but more expenses out of the whole affair.

 

The US on the other hand, has managed to create a conflict, where they have very little to lose but a lot to gain (compared the costs they incurred). 

 

The question is really, how can the leaders of Europe be such utter muppets, to take a dump in their own back yard, that will stink for years to come, for the profit of another country halfway across the world.

 

And please don't reply something along the lines of "human rights", "Putin being a dictator bent on resurrecting the soviet union and has to be stopped" or other such tripe. The only reason I'm even writing this response is because I know you're not stupid enough to believe that.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[obyknven]

Nation of slaves

http://youtu.be/zz63RhGaR2s

It's just of tradition

[Volourn]

"So Russia finds different markets to supplement the lost ones and presto the West shot itself in the face."

 

The West can survive Russia. Do you remember the Cold War? You remember who lost it? Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

[Sarex]

"So Russia finds different markets to supplement the lost ones and presto the West shot itself in the face."

 

The West can survive Russia. Do you remember the Cold War? You remember who lost it? Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

You remember WW1 and WW2?

[BruceVC]

 

"So Russia finds different markets to supplement the lost ones and presto the West shot itself in the face."

 

The West can survive Russia. Do you remember the Cold War? You remember who lost it? Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

You remember WW1 and WW2?

 

 

I don't claim to be a expert in all history but even I know that both those wars weren't about the West vs Russia

 

So Volos point is valid, we have seen this whole " Russia vs West" and it indeed was called the Cold War and yes, Russia lost. Sorry Sarex but history doesn't lie

[obyknven]

 

 

"So Russia finds different markets to supplement the lost ones and presto the West shot itself in the face."

 

The West can survive Russia. Do you remember the Cold War? You remember who lost it? Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

 

You remember WW1 and WW2?

 

 

I don't claim to be a expert in all history but even I know that both those wars weren't about the West vs Russia

 

So Volos point is valid, we have seen this whole " Russia vs West" and it indeed was called the Cold War and yes, Russia lost. Sorry Sarex but history doesn't lie

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2785905/China-overtakes-U-S-world-s-largest-economy-IMF-says-economy-worth-17-6trillion-America-falls-second-place-time-1872.html

 

America usurped: China becomes world's largest economy - putting USA in second place for the first time in 142 years

This conflict not about West vs Russia . It's about how Third world overthrow hegemony of First world really. Times of "Atlantic international community" is over, balance of power has been changed, but Westlings too slow to it and continue acting in 80-s style.

[Gorgon]

Daily mail. Come on. that's such a noob troll move. 

[Zoraptor]

Apparently the Dail Fail is the most read enewspaper anywhere. No, really.

 

It is accurate, China > US economically, for PPP rather than raw size at least.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Zoraptor

[CoM_Solaufein]

Closed for topic length.

 

Continued: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69691-ukraine-discussion-2/