Change inventory system from "PoE stash" to "IE encumbrance"

[Volourn]

The stash is trash.  It's not hardcore. It's not fun. It's not logical. It doesn't make sense. The fact there is no encumbrance would also make no sense but since every character is equally strong I guess encumbrance is worthless since strength doesn't exist which makes it weird that the standard 'strong' races like PE's orc ihas more 'might' than PE's halflings even though 'might' isn't 'strength' so makes me think that the orcs are more spitually aware than orlans... that's all weird.

 

 

But, anyways, back to stash. The inventory should be more hardcore. There should be no mystcial stash, their should be be an encumbrance stat based on race, inventory slots shouldn't be shared amonmgst the party, and you shouldn't be allowed to carry 8 suits of platemail.

 

Also, if you leave loot on the ground it should eventually 'vanish' to show that some other interloper came by and looted it. LOOK AT THAT LOGIC GO!

 

No mercy for the newblood! HARDCORE EXPERTS ALL THE WAY!

[Teslacrashed]

as a looting fiend, I'm totally fine with the "infinite stash."

I was always modding my carry weight in Fallout/Elder scrolls games.

[Immortalis]

I think people don't realize that by having negative things in a game that you "love to hate" you actually feel better when you over come them..

 

I don't mean that repetitive or poorly designed Inventory screens or annoying bags of holding / scroll cases / ect.. should stay. Those were engine limitations that need to die in a fire. However.. when OE just gives you everything on a silver platter.. it cheapens the entire experience.

 

I think everyone forgets those magical moments where your just a lone guy.. scratching and crawling out of candle keep trying to make something happen.. It feels overwhelming.. maybe even annoying.. but in the end.. you feel good. You can't just teleport every mundane thing to a magical infinite stash and sell it all off.. You feel weak and helpless.. you try to find every advantage you can.. you do any easy quest or take any companion because without every tiny advantage.. your screwed.

 

I am talking first play throughs before these games got meta'd to death and you could solo the game with an inventory of monster summoning scrolls and fireballs.

 

We will see when the game releases.. I think the Stash thing is gonna be nixxed for PoE 2 if we ever get that far.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Immortalis

[Tamerlane]

Death to encumbrance.

[Zombra]

I think people don't realize that by having negative things in a game that you "love to hate" you actually feel better when you over come them.

I realize it  I absolutely realize it.

 

For me though there is a difference between a fun challenge and a drag.  Inventory management is wonderful sometimes, but a drag in many games, including the IE games, and would be in this game.  My 2 gp.

[archangel979]

I don't mind the current system if it is explained ingame. I want a logical explanation of how you have access to magical stash.

[Immortalis]

 

I think people don't realize that by having negative things in a game that you "love to hate" you actually feel better when you over come them.

I realize it  I absolutely realize it.

 

For me though there is a difference between a fun challenge and a drag.  Inventory management is wonderful sometimes, but a drag in many games, including the IE games, and would be in this game.  My 2 gp.

 

 

Why? What about "inventory management" do you find a drag? That you can't pick up every item whenever you want? That's not realizing anything.. That's what you THINK you want.. If your talking about ****ty user interfaces or having to scroll through bags of holding to find that one thing you need.. then yes I agree.

 

If you have no consequences for just running around picking everything up.. your basically working with an entitled mechanic.. your gonna love the idea of it now.. then hate it in 4 months and not know why.. but if they take it away then.. people will cry out that they are losing a feature they expect now..

 

....In my opinion

[R.Alexander]

I know I'm in the minority, but I love inventory management in RPGs. How does the stash actually work? How much can your party carry with them?

[Zombra]

 

Why? What about "inventory management" do you find a drag? That you can't pick up every item whenever you want? That's not realizing anything.. That's what you THINK you want.. If your talking about ****ty user interfaces or having to scroll through bags of holding to find that one thing you need.. then yes I agree.

 

If you have no consequences for just running around picking everything up.. your basically working with an entitled mechanic.. your gonna love the idea of it now.. then hate it in 4 months and not know why.. but if they take it away then.. people will cry out that they are losing a feature they expect now..

I think I'll love the idea now, and then completely forget about it in 4 months because it doesn't bother me any more.  That's much better than being constantly annoyed by it.

 

Micro inventory management can be great in a survival type game, but in a context like this, there's just no reason for it - it doesn't add anything.  It doesn't make for interesting choices.  All it does is encourage play where you assiduously make periodic trips to a merchant to ensure that you have plenty of free space in your backpack at all times.  If you neglect to do so, you get that annoying moment where you say damn, I forgot to do some of the busywork.  It's extra schlepping, nothing more.

 

I think the ideal here is for the thrill of an interesting decision ... I can't carry both the idol and the whip, so which do I choose?  I get that and why it's fun, but in practice (again, in this type of game), that does not happen.  You're already carrying 400 different items across all your characters, and once you hit the limit and pick up item #401, you have to sift through to find the most insignificant item among all your insignificant items - or not bother and just throw away the first insignificant item you see.

 

This is one of those cases where the extremes are more desirable than the middle ground.  If each character could only carry 3 things period, that would be great - each new find really would be a decision.  On the other hand, when tracking every leaf and trinket among 1,000 bits of loot is eliminated (the stash), that is also great.  The middle ground of having tons of crap to organize and making it a big problem is not so great.

 

My 2gp

 

To turn this on its head, I'd like to see an explanation of what the traditional method of "tons of crap, but with an arbitrary limit" adds to gameplay from the point of view of its proponents.  (I'm sure there are already a million posts on this subject, so feel free to just hit me with a link.)

Edited August 30, 2014 by Zombra

[crackwise]

I am pretty much against the concept of looting whatever available and then selling *everything* to make money. It is not very realistic. Furthermore, if you want to make money from selling 100 crappy leather armors, then you shouldn't complain from going back and forth to sell those.

 

Why? Because you deserve it by being greedy. You can play it like a normal adventurer group and don't bother with the crap items, or be the hardcore looter and loot every thing not attached to the ground. In fact, that is also a role-playing decision.

 

 

IE inventory was tedious and it is a good thing we got rid of it. But I would prefer as the inventory an infinite grid, but limited with the encumbrance (determined by STR) limit. It is fine if it is accesible only out of combat.

[Volourn]

"IE inventory was tedious"

 

No, it wasn't.

 

 

"But I would prefer as the inventory an infinite grid, but limited with the encumbrance (determined by STR) limit. It is fine if it is accesible only out of combat."

 

Agreed. That's the better way to go.

[dorkboy]

@Zombra

I disagree that the compromise between finite weight and/or space limitations and a largish inventory is a bad one. In fact, I think it may in many cases be the best of both worlds.

It adds both the involvedness of a limited inventory, but without necessarily making it a concern for each and every item picked up - thus making looting, as opposed to just equipping to 1 out of 3 slots, viable. 

It also, due to not being an infinite grid/list, limits how much time you have to spend digging through pockets to locate stuff. 

Don't get me wrong, though, I don't think the IE inventories would have suffered if gems, jewelry, arrows etc. had automatically stacked, rather than requiring a lot of shuffle-tetris.

 

Infinite bags of holding, gem bags/scroll cases and generally bags within bags (or pockets within Hong Kong Police vests within backpacks within sub-backpacks, for that matter) is where it gets convoluted, IMO, as it adds a layer of hierarchy/procedure to the logistics of sorting. If the decision on what to pick up and what to leave behind is a simple one, then I don't think adding a pocket labyrinth to it makes that aspect more complex - just more fidgety (and, yes, indeed rewarding boring behaviour).

 

Lastly, it adds believability/verisimilitude (does not strictly equal realism, and never will) and a change of pace/post battle loot reviewing process (whereas being able to simply vacuum the place of everything that's not nailed to the floor makes looting less involving, IMO, because you just click "Take all" without any thought to what you're actually taking). 

 

You will agree with all of this! *jedi hand wave*

Edited August 31, 2014 by dorkboy

[Zombra]

Good post db, and I see that point of view.  That works for players who are inclined to visit the shop frequently anyway, but to me going to sell is a chore.  If I forget to do my chore I am grounded and not allowed to have the fun.

 

I still believe that inventory management is better as all or nothing.  When space is unlimited, I don't have to worry about it.  When space is small and limited, I have to worry about it, but in a fun way that is a constant challenge, a basic part of gameplay.  A huge but limited inventory encourages me to not think about it that much and Hoover everything in sight, and then periodically hits me over the head and cries "Stop!  You must go see the merchant before venturing forth!"; no matter where I am, the game comes screeching to a halt.

 

My (least) favorite example of this occurred in Dragon Age: Origins.  Colossal inventory space, but still finite.  So I was on this long story line that took me deep, deep into these ruins underneath the dwarven city.  I had taken hours getting there and felt a long way from civilization.  My dungeon delving was going great and I had a lot of scary fights.  Then suddenly my loot tank filled up and "Ping!" I had to stop.  I considered going picking through my whole (huge goddamn) inventory and deciding what I could discard and what I could keep, but decided it would be too wasteful and tedious.  I ended up simply turning around and walking back through the ruins, devoid of any sense of mystery or adventure since I'd already cleared out all the encounters, no surprises, no tension, no fun.  I just walked back to the city, sold 2/3 of the **** I was carrying, and just walked back through the ruins again, all the joy and magic of the experience completely drained away.  The ruins of the city looked sturdy and new compared to the ruins of my gameplay experience.

 

After that I promptly installed a mod that maxed out my inventory space, forgot all about it, and went back to having fun.  This is the purpose of the stash.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Zombra

[dorkboy]

@Zombra

What, no love for backtracking? I've never really been bothered by that personally, though it certainly helps if the corpses are persistent. 

 

In a way it is like spells/resting - the further you press on the more "fatigued" your situation gets, forcing you to resort to more desperate/costly measures and progressively leaving behind more valuable loot. 

 

I guess I don't see the principal difference between constantly sorting and only sorting occasionally, though the sheer bulk of accumulated stuff is a good point.

[Zombra]

I suppose it's a question of how "organic" or natural it feels to the gameplay.  The resting/spells parallel is a good one, because like a finite inventory, it provides periodic downtime and reassessment of my party's readiness.  When I go through a dungeon, it makes sense to me to pace myself, keep track of my hit points and how many spells I have left.  These things matter; they're the basic resources I "spend" and must replenish to progress.  They matter all the time.

 

A very limited inventory is also very natural and organic.  If I can only carry 2 things, it comes up a lot and is feels like a normal part of the gameplay, even part of the story.  It matters all the time.  Resident Evil comes to mind as a perfect example of a small inventory done right.

 

But with a traditional, IE-style inventory, inventory space isn't something I really keep tabs on until I have to, because most of the time it doesn't matter.  I can go through a whole dungeon without thinking about it at all, then suddenly 1/3 of the way through the next dungeon, boom! I come to a complete halt.  I might be looting a dragon's horde, or maybe I just found a plain copper ring lying on a table (usually it's the latter case, something totally insignificant that hits the limit).  Now I have to go through my personal warehouse of 500 things and figure it out, regardless of the drama of the current situation.  And then once I do it, I don't have to think about it again for another 5 hours of play, and then it hits again and stops the show again.  It's the disjointed, arbitrary nature of it that feels so wrong to me.

 

The stash type inventory is a good solution to the problem in my opinion.  It extends that feeling of not having to worry about it and makes it so you never have to worry about it.  Unrealistic?  Of course, but you already know my stance on realism vs. gameplay.  

 

And I understand that some people enjoy that "realism" or just the thrill of balancing numbers.  I've just gotten to the point in my role-playing life where it's not what I'm interested in any more.  You should see the P&P games I play ... we say things like, "I go buy some armor."  No one cares how many gold pieces were spent.  There isn't a well-erased part on my character sheet with my current gp, sp, cp.  The GM just says, OK, you have enough money to do that, or OK, but that will mean you're almost broke.  That's sufficient for us to tell the story, and that's all I really care about even in CRPGs.  Worrying about how to fit those 3 big boxes on a cart is a problem best left to real life.  In a game, it's a detail I'd rather gloss over, just like I gloss over boring stuff like going to the bathroom or dealing with mosquito bites.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Zombra

[dorkboy]

@Zombra

They could just call it a magical stash (aren't Bags of Holding supposed to be that?). Shouldn't be possible to store more than 1 ladder in there, though..

 

Can't really trump a human GM.

On the other hand, just reducing the value of most items (except for a few precious pieces of treasure) to 0 would greatly reduce the incentive to hoard them, without necessarily sacrificing details/items that add to the setting/resource gameplay. I don't recall inventories full of Quarterstaffs, for instance.

[Zombra]

They could just call it a magical stash (aren't Bags of Holding supposed to be that?). Shouldn't be possible to store more than 1 ladder in there, though...

Yeah, if they wanted to pacify "realists", they could certainly make up a magic genie box or whatnot.  Doesn't matter to me either way.  

 

Can't really trump a human GM.

 

Haha, yeah.  I remember discovering encumbrance rules after YEARS of playing AD&D 1st Edition.  Hey guys, there are rules for this, I guess we should start keeping track.  There was so much stupid BS in that DM's Guide that never saw the light of day in any of my campaigns.  I think we tried using it for a few sessions and then just forgot about it.  Not really fun.

 

On the other hand, just reducing the value of most items (except for a few precious pieces of treasure) to 0 would greatly reduce the incentive to hoard them, without necessarily sacrificing details/items that add to the setting/resource gameplay. I don't recall inventories full of Quarterstaffs, for instance.

 

Honestly, I'm not a fan of "color" loot.  Why the hell can I pick up a fork in Skyrim.  To me it is all just clutter confusing the issue in an already bloated and horrible inventory system.  If you want there to be a fork on the table, that's the art department's job.  Draw a fork on the table.  I can see it, I know it's there, it has nothing to do with the game, I don't need to be able to put it in my pocket.  I don't know.  I guess I'm as guilty as anyone of rearranging my home decor in Fallout 3.  In an IE type game though, less is more where inventory is concerned.  My 2gp.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Zombra

[Suburban-Fox]

Actually, I think the "stash" is more immersive.

 

If everybody has their own personal inventory...how, exactly, are you navigating the perilous dungeon with that +1 harness, Glaive of Cleaving, three +2 swords, 8 +3 daggers, Flail of Golemn Smashing, Mail of Epicness, 40,000 potions, and all the trinkets from quests that you never bothered to drop because you might need them later, all stashed away in your backpack? I don't care how strong you are, some things are just too big and bulky to carry on your back.

 

It makes much more sense to have stuff like that in a wagon, or sth, IMO - the wagon doesn't need to be represented on the screen, but for all intents and purposes, it's there.

[Immortalis]

"IE inventory was tedious"

 

No, it wasn't.

 

 

"But I would prefer as the inventory an infinite grid, but limited with the encumbrance (determined by STR) limit. It is fine if it is accesible only out of combat."

 

Agreed. That's the better way to go.

 

I pretty much agree with this.. but my beef isn't the new UI.. It's about the unlimited stash back at base that you can teleport items to.

 

 

 

They could just call it a magical stash (aren't Bags of Holding supposed to be that?). Shouldn't be possible to store more than 1 ladder in there, though...

Yeah, if they wanted to pacify "realists", they could certainly make up a magic genie box or whatnot.  Doesn't matter to me either way.  

 

Can't really trump a human GM.

 

Haha, yeah.  I remember discovering encumbrance rules after YEARS of playing AD&D 1st Edition.  Hey guys, there are rules for this, I guess we should start keeping track.  There was so much stupid BS in that DM's Guide that never saw the light of day in any of my campaigns.  I think we tried using it for a few sessions and then just forgot about it.  Not really fun.

 

On the other hand, just reducing the value of most items (except for a few precious pieces of treasure) to 0 would greatly reduce the incentive to hoard them, without necessarily sacrificing details/items that add to the setting/resource gameplay. I don't recall inventories full of Quarterstaffs, for instance.

 

Honestly, I'm not a fan of "color" loot.  Why the hell can I pick up a fork in Skyrim.  To me it is all just clutter confusing the issue in an already bloated and horrible inventory system.  If you want there to be a fork on the table, that's the art department's job.  Draw a fork on the table.  I can see it, I know it's there, it has nothing to do with the game, I don't need to be able to put it in my pocket.  I don't know.  I guess I'm as guilty as anyone of rearranging my home decor in Fallout 3.  In an IE type game though, less is more where inventory is concerned.  My 2gp.

 

 

It's not fun because it's extra bull**** you gotta do that takes away from the fun of playing PnP with friends. Some groups will love the hardcore feeling of DnD but most people who do PnP are looking for easy rolls and a fun time with friends.

 

In a game where all this maintenance is done for you.. it's much less about extra overhead to keep track on and more about resource and space management.. at least for me.. Again I don't travel through 3 forest areas over and over so I can sell every ****ing dagger and long sword..

 

Before I am about to go do a big quest I always have to ask myself like what am I bringing consumable wise.. do I have space for any potential items I will find.. Like I care about alot of that stuff.. at least I did when I first started playing.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Immortalis

[Suburban-Fox]

 

I pretty much agree with this.. but my beef isn't the new UI.. It's about the unlimited stash back at base that you can teleport items to.

 

Okay, I don't like the idea of that. I don't mind having an inventory stash at your camp, or one that you can access while adventuring, but I don't like the idea of being able to magically teleport stuff back to your camp. If you don't want to spend the time hauling 100 two-handers back to your camp, then you shouldn't be able to sell 100 two-handers.

 

If they're going to do that, they might as well have a "Loot Dungeon" button which instantly opens up a screen, from which you can choose what, in the entire dungeon that you've cleared so far, to sell, and instantly get the cash for it there and then. At least let us disable this feature for the Hardcore mode, if nothing else.

[Ashen Rohk]

The limited inventory is a great idea, makes you think about what you want to keep to hand in character inventories.

 

Who in the ass can carry 320lbs in full plate armour? PoE adds a bit more realism to proceedings.

[Immortalis]

 

 

I pretty much agree with this.. but my beef isn't the new UI.. It's about the unlimited stash back at base that you can teleport items to.

 

Okay, I don't like the idea of that. I don't mind having an inventory stash at your camp, or one that you can access while adventuring, but I don't like the idea of being able to magically teleport stuff back to your camp. If you don't want to spend the time hauling 100 two-handers back to your camp, then you shouldn't be able to sell 100 two-handers.

 

If they're going to do that, they might as well have a "Loot Dungeon" button which instantly opens up a screen, from which you can choose what, in the entire dungeon that you've cleared so far, to sell, and instantly get the cash for it there and then. At least let us disable this feature for the Hardcore mode, if nothing else.

 

 

Oh yea maybe I misunderstood.. I don't want the magical stash of teleportation either..

 

I was just agreeing that inventory slots shouldn't matter it should be based on strength.

[Lephys]

My thought is... the full extent of inventory management does not end at "can I pick this up or not?". It's what kind of access you have to that item. I mean, in Fallout, you can just go into your inventory, mid-battle, for what... 3 AP? Then use 73 stimpaks. Then "unpause" and continue with combat. I think that aspect is a hell of a lot more important than whether or not, at one point in time, you can pick up those 73 stimpaks or not.

 

See, being able to pick up the stuff isn't the issue, really, since you can always pick up infinite stuff eventually.

 

I realize that always being able to "pick it up" (send it to some stash) immediately, at any given moment, doesn't accurately represent the times when you couldn't go back for a second load, and/or the items would feasibly be taken or moved or destroyed during the duration of your return trip, etc. However, this is no more of a stretch than always having items vanish after you leave the area, just to make a limited inventory more meaningful. If you break into some ruins and clear them out, but you don't take all the gold you find down there, what are the odds, really, that in a 10-hour period, while you run back to town to store/sell things and come back to the ruins, some group of lackeys arrives at the ruins, takes EVERYTHING that remains, and gets the hell out of there? Pretty slim, I'd say. Now, if you got ambushed by bandits on the main highway, and left some stuff lying around, yeah.... 10 hours later, someone's probably stumbled upon it.

 

Anywho, the point is, it's an abstraction, but claiming that the other ways of doing it aren't an abstraction is silly. In some systems, once you're encumbered, you simply move really slowly, but you never stop moving. So, you can basically carry infinite stuff, just really slowly. In many systems, your money has no weight. So you can carry around 3,000 gold coins, but you can't carry 2 suits of plate armor? Yeah, that's great.

 

So, I dunno... I mean, if we want a perfect simulation of encumbrance, then I'm game, I suppose. But, if we don't, I don't think we can really say "Oh no, abstraction!" to the whole "I'm technically picking this all up right now, even though a bunch of it isn't actually going into my accessibly inventory" mechanic.

 

Again, I'd say the problem is with how easy it is to access your stash. There used to be set rest spots, which was at least better than just "whenever you DO rest, just wherever." But, really, I'd still make it something like "If you send it to your stash, it somehow automagically gets transported to your stronghold" or something. That way, it's really not that much different from leaving it lying on the ground, and having to come back to get it, except that the actual act of having to go somewhere, sell things, then come back to get it is abstracted away. You still cannot access it immediately (so no equipping of weapons, or quick items, etc, for combat use), and it still takes time and travel effort to make your way to where the stashed items are (similar to having to go back to the place where you left them because you couldn't pick them up at the time.)