Experience Point Mechanics - Fighting Enemies

[aluminiumtrioxid]

"Now on hypothetical "Sneak past enemies to get exp", well, okay, let's say you sneak past the beetles and get exp on other side of the field. Should you also get exp if you instead go around the beetles without ever getting close to them? Like, if there are two roads that lead to place you want to get to, one of them has beetles and one of them has nothing on it. Should you also get exp for choosing the road that has nothing in it despite the fact that isn't challenge at all?

 

In such a situation I mostly think the area designers are incompetent. I mean, it's a boring non-choice either way: if you get xp for both, then Nothing Road is obviously better. If you only get xp for Beetle Road, that's the better option.

 

Arguments hinging on developer incompetence should be disqualified, I think.

 

I don't believe in everything should be balanced equally. Soemtimes combat method should be rewarded more; sometimes tlaking should, and sometimes sneaking. ie. If you are asked to break into a museum and steal some exhibit without killing the guards and you do you should get less xp. XP reward is about succeeding and there should/could be different levels of 'success' hence different rewards.

 

That's a surprisingly insightful post from you, and I fully agree. I'd also add a further layer, though, where greater success in a certain area means increased difficulty in another one, just to avoid having an "optimal" path (those irk me for some reason).

 

If  you are hired by the king to get rid of the dragon who is terorrizing the land and you turn around and make a deal with the dragon who agrees not to on a mass murder spree IF the king agrees to give up a virgin once a month the king isn't gonna be as satisifed if you just outright kill the beast. Even 'sacring' the dragon away shouldn't be as beneficial as the king could argue that it could always come back when you leave. Hence more experience for killing it. Etc., etc.

 

As long as players are not punished for having to make the choice at a set level, this is completely fine. I'm not completely sure that outwitting a dragon isn't worth as much xp as defeating it in a fair combat, but that hugely depends on how intelligent dragons are in the setting, I guess. Also, you should totally be able to trick the king into thinking that you've killed the beast, and even out the reward discrepancy.

[Killyox]

 

Everyone in QA and among the OEI devs fights most of the time in PoE.  They love blasting critters in red circles with spells and bashing them with morning stars.  They also use stealth quite a bit, but often to scout, less often to avoid fights (some more than others).  So while the concern is a rational one, people are not entirely rational.

If people™ were rational, they wouldn't spend their time or money on something like games.  So, it's good for you.

 

The XP system didn't bother me in the slightest since I know I'll spend my time on what I find fun to me.  Heck, it's a single player game.

 

Why not?

 

I am a very rational person. Sometimes irritatingly so. Doesn't mean I can not enjoy games. 

[Tartantyco]

People are arguing the stupidest things in this thread right now...

[Polanski]

Just my 2 cents. At first I was very cautious about this change to the original formula with kill xp, but I truly feel that this is another place were josh and co. has taken a courageous step to change things for the better.

 

Xp farming is a problem in a lot of RPGs and I remember a lot of situations were I would do stupid stuff like killing a guy after completing his quest, just because why not. Combat could also become a chore because if you didn't farm every single xp you were in essence degenerating your characters. I used to summon demons in BG2 to kill just for xp, no fun really.

 

I have no doubt about that I will still enjoy the heck out of combat in PoE.

[neo6874]

BACK ON TOPIC AGAIN: If a dragon replaced those beetles would it worthy of xp or not?

no, because the party would all be dead.

 

 

I don't believe in everything should be balanced equally. Soemtimes combat method should be rewarded more; sometimes tlaking should, and sometimes sneaking. ie. If you are asked to break into a museum and steal some exhibit without killing the guards and you do you should get less xp. XP reward is about succeeding and there should/could be different levels of 'success' hence different rewards.

Problem with this is, in very general terms, this doesn't matter if there is "Kill XP" involved, since "Kill all the things" is the best route.

 

Even if you get less "quest XP" because you killed the guards, assuming the guards are of proper level for the party such that you can get XP for them (i.e. they're not L1 mooks when you're L10), then you're likely to still end up with more XP than finishing the quest with no killing.

 

For example, if you have a party of 6 (10th lvl), and the quest gives 3K XP, each character gets 500.

 

The museum has

- 2 guards (5th lvl) at the front door (1k XP total)

- 4 patrolling guards (5th lvl) in various places. You'd have to hunt them down (~560 XP per)

 

Killing them all nets you (about) 3250 XP, or about 540 XP per character. Even with getting zero XP for the quest, you've made more XP by killing all the things.

 

 

Now, obviously, you can use 3rd level guards, and knock the XP award for killing the guards down by about half, but even there, it's only a detriment if you're losing all the quest XP (which is bogus, since you completed the quest).

 

 

(Edit -- note that I'm pulling numbers off the D&D XP awards table, because I have it in front of me.)

Edited August 18, 2014 by neo6874

[Hassat Hunter]

I still haven't seen anyone from the "kill XP" camp refute that this system allows one of the most awesome progressions in RPG's to date... actual difficulty settings.

Not +health (hello there, healthbloat Dragon Age), +damage or similar stupidity, but a harder encounter.

 

Has any game done this before? No. Does this system *allows* PoE to do this? Yes.

Do you want it to be gone to get your precious Kill XP back? Do you really?

 

(Incase you can't deduct why this wouldn't work with kill XP there's a balance nightmare - easy will get easier enemies, less XP, harder game. Hard will get stronger enemies, more XP, easier game. In either case the difficulty is bogus again. And no, "boosting XP, nerfing XP" isn't a solution, just another hack.

Away with the hacking, down to a proper system I say. And yes, I wonder why some people object to that.

 

I don't see how your refuting my comment on Bloodlines other then saying, "well that's just like, your opinion man"

Well, give me proof then that Bloodlines is not a combat game, seeing the amount of combat you go through throughout the game. Especially in Hollywood+

Which Deus Ex are we talking about? I assumed the most recent one.

Well, there comes the error. The ORIGINAL of course. Seriously.

 

But not that Human Revolution is mentioned, that's another prime example how NOT to do it.

* People avoiding keys or keycodes to hack instead (XP) = check

* Nudging into one playthrough by offering 10XP for kill, 50XP for knockout = check

* Force people to 'clear' areas for XP = check

* More forcing playthrough by insane stealth bonus for ghosting = check

* Clear incentive for player to go back after ghost bonus to farm enemies for knockout XP = check

 

The original DX did XP right, HR did it wrong, so very very VERY wrong.

As said; it's a prime example how *not* to do it, and how the developers obviously had no idea what ION STORM did XP wise in DX, and then messed it up completely.

I could probably write a book about how wrong DX:HR did XP.

And yes, the comparrison (and Bloodlines) with IE makes sense. Nothing to do with "Veteran gamer" or not, but more with having insights or higher understanding. Rather than your "FP RPS vs Iso RPS - can't take lessons from each other!"

That's just wrong, and narrow-minded, and you'll miss out a great deal of errors not to do, or things that are great by this tunnel-vision.

P.s. While we are having a pissing contest on games unrelated to IE.. can we talk about that Watchers Keep Mega Dungeon debate we had 4 pages back? After me and stun kinda smacked your argument in the dirt you sorta disappeared for a week.

Refresh my memory please... I'm not really looking forward to delve back in this thread.

 

(Also fun note; I will dissapear for a week again. Nothing to do with your arguments or so, just busy busy)

[Immortalis]

 

Why can't this thread be locked? Nobody says anything new and it has gotten to the point where people insult each other and when someone wisely quits other side is like "HAHAH, I'M WINNER FOR TIRING OUT THE OPPOSITION THROUGH BULLCRAP"

 

This conversation is fricking cyclical, One side says x other side says y, the first side replies with z, other side replies with b, first side replies with x, other side replies with y, etc this conversation isn't fricking productive when everyone keeps saying same thing over and over and acts incredibly smug about it

 

Everyone in this thread is either strawmanning each other, ignoring their arguments in favor of "I'm right" or making really illogical arguments. Dang it, today(in my timezone at least, though they probably wait until its 12 AM in america or something... Stupid America centric timezones, I don't want to wait until 20:00 to get my beta key) is the day when beta is released so at least try it out first before continuing this discussion.

 

AND everyone keeps putting words into each other mouth and appears to have really bad reading comprehension problems... This thread gives me headache, but its like watching a trainwreck...

I have backed off for now for two reasons you have posted here. 

 

1)  It is too hostile in here to have any kind of honest discussion.

2)  It is the calm before the Beta storm, and nothing new can be said until we all get a taste of it. 

 

 

 

I didn't start the thread with that intention.. However around page 12 it did kind of become a pissing contest.

 

Although Broken Mask you haven't really helped the situation.. Your posts have been just as antagonizing. Your first post in this thread was basically stating this entire thread was useless including our opinions and discussion thus far.. Which at that time was quite tame..

 

Hell of a way to start your posts then claim foul when everything goes bad after. Not a shot on you personally just kind of hypocritical.

 

 

Incase you forgot BrokenMask.. here was literally your first post in this thread.. and now you wonder why it's turned into petty name calling

 

 

<_< Why are people being so.. Annoying about this? Its like if you guys are trying to write a rulebook or something. And you are having same conversation in two different threads!

 

<More Of His Personal Opinions Here>

Edited August 18, 2014 by Immortalis

[BrokenMask]

Hey, to be fair, I was really annoyed since this conversation was going on in gamescom thread as well Its kinda annoying to have exact same conversation in two different threads going on in exact same manner and I was kinda in bad mood when I came here to post

 

Sorry for being rude though ^^;

[Grand_Commander13]

Well, having played through a bit of the backer beta, I can confirm two things: there's loot in them that hills (I mean to say that you find stuff when you do optional fights), and the fights were still just as fun without a "+XP" indicator popping up after each kill.

[Stun]

Well, having played through a bit of the backer beta, I can confirm two things: there's loot in them that hills (I mean to say that you find stuff when you do optional fights), and the fights were still just as fun without a "+XP" indicator popping up after each kill.

I have also played the beta for a few hours and I most definitely disagree with that last part, and some of the first part. I was exploring. I found a dungeon. I entered it. I came to a room FULL of Shades. It took every single tactical bone in my body to come out victorious. I literally felt fatigued when it was over.

 

And what did I get for it? Nada. It's like the fight didn't count. It's like the game didn't intend for me to kill them. It's like the game laughed at me and said: lol Sucker! here, have a fist full of NOTHING for all your hard work hahahahahaha.

 

Side note about loot drops: There's a small group of Hags guarding the entrance to that dungeon. this encounter did reward you...sorta - with crafting supplies. If you can call crafting supplies loot. I haven't crafted anything in this beta yet so I have no idea how "valuable" 4 pieces of Bark are going to be.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

 

I have also played the beta for a few hours and I most definitely disagree with that last part, and some of the first part. I was exploring. I found a dungeon. I entered it. I came to a room FULL of Shades. It took every single tactical bone in my body to come out victorious. I literally felt fatigued when it was over.

 

And what did I get for it? Nada. It's like the fight didn't count. It's like the game didn't intend for me to kill them. It's like the game laughed at me and said: lol Sucker! here, have a fist full of NOTHING for all your hard work hahahahahaha.

 

Side note about loot drops: There's a small group of Hags guarding the entrance to that dungeon. this encounter did reward you...sorta - with crafting supplies. If you can call crafting supplies loot. I haven't crafted anything in this beta yet so I have no idea how "valuable" 4 pieces of Bark are going to be.

 

I have to agree with Stun. I was okay with objective xp, but I was assuming "objective" wasn't the same as quest. I just fought like, six lions at once and felt the battle was fairly challenging. I would have liked some xp or something; instead I got barely anything. 

 

I thought objective xp would have things like, "Cleared the road for travel +100 Xp", but so far at least objective xp has been the same as quest xp, and I feel it makes combat feel a bit more stale than it could have been.

 

If this is how they're gonna do objective xp; I'd rather kill xp come back.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Namutree

[BrokenMask]

I was kinda surprised to find out I actually like the "Since you don't get exp from enemies, you can't level up your character to get that extra skill you need to get enough lockpicking skill to open this door instead of finding the key" aspect of the system <_< I mean, thats how I usually do the things, I'm like "Oh, little more exp... Dang it, wheres the next enemy"

 

It does make the pacing feel different from old IE games though and it does avoid hitting the part of brain that feels pleasure for getting rewards for simple actions.

Edited August 19, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Stun]

I was kinda surprised to find out I actually like the "Since you don't get exp from enemies, you can't level up your character to get that extra skill you need to get enough lockpicking skill to open this door instead of finding the key" aspect of the system <_< I mean, thats how I usually do the things, I'm like "Oh, little more exp... Dang it, wheres the next enemy"

You were surprised?

 

You've been voicing your desire for exactly that since before you got your hands on the beta.

 

 

It does make the pacing feel different from old IE games though and it does avoid hitting the part of brain that feels pleasure for getting rewards for simple actions.

I don't think anyone on earth can describe the Combat in this beta as "simple actions". I just had a battle with some shades that lasted more than 10 minutes. Double that if you count all the reloads. Edited August 19, 2014 by Stun

[BrokenMask]

 

You were surprised?

 

You've been voicing your desire for exactly that since before you got your hands on the beta.

 

 

I actually forgot to think about the "ONE more lock picking skill" thing

 

And yes, combat is complicated, I just meant that combat lacks that addicting factor without exp, if that makes sense.

 

But yeah, I don't mind the lack of combat exp and I do like how game forces me to play differently from the way I usually play these games due to it, my bigger problem is trying to understand why people don't understand my problem with lockpicking <_<

Edited August 19, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Volourn]

XP is about rewarding the player for successfully overcoming a challenge. Combat in the game  is the most challenging aspect (it's not hard for me outside of super lag and vanish weapons and shields lol) yet there is no reward for it. And, no beetles shells is not.

 

You get 1k xp for enteraining cave but nothing for beetles, lions, oh my? Come on. Finding a cave is easier than defeating beetles. L0L

 

And, it's silly to say that giving xp for combat is rewarding 'degenerate gameplay' when the game si heavily focused on combat so in a way it's insulting PE. I mena the classes are geared for combat. The game is focused on combat. You'd think they would reward the player for it.

 

Again, as I said above, xp is about rewading the player for successfully overcoming a challenge/role-playing. That's why it was invented, that's why it exists, and that's,why it should be used.

[Namutree]

Obsidian certainly isn't handling object xp the way they should have. I have to wonder why they chose to remove kill xp, but then make combat such an ordeal. It would make sense to remove kill xp if they were trying to downplay combat, but after playing the beta I know they aren't. In fact; poe probably needs kill xp more than the IE games did.

[Stun]

And yes, combat is complicated, I just meant that combat lacks that addicting factor without exp, if that makes sense.

Aah. that's what you meant. yeah it makes sense. I utterly agree.

 

I'll also add that although I've probably only done about 1/3rd of this beta, I can say that even enemy loot drops aren't coming across as a proper motivator to engage in combat. The loot I've gotten so far has been very.... uninspired.

[Stun]

I still haven't seen anyone from the "kill XP" camp refute that this system allows one of the most awesome progressions in RPG's to date... actual difficulty settings.Not +health (hello there, healthbloat Dragon Age), +damage or similar stupidity, but a harder encounter.

 

Has any game done this before? No. Does this system *allows* PoE to do this? Yes.

Do you want it to be gone to get your precious Kill XP back? Do you really?

 

(Incase you can't deduct why this wouldn't work with kill XP there's a balance nightmare - easy will get easier enemies, less XP, harder game. Hard will get stronger enemies, more XP, easier game. In either case the difficulty is bogus again. And no, "boosting XP, nerfing XP" isn't a solution, just another hack.

Away with the hacking, down to a proper system I say. And yes, I wonder why some people object to that.

We don't need to refute such a presumptuous, misguided claim. The Backer beta does a fine job of that for us.

 

You're wrong in 10 different ways, and the very first pieces of tangible evidence we've gotten confirm that in such a demonstrative fashion that it almost hurts.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Stun

[Bryy]

I still can't accurately judge this mechanic until they fix the XP/Quest bug.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Bryy

[Semelle]

 

Well, having played through a bit of the backer beta, I can confirm two things: there's loot in them that hills (I mean to say that you find stuff when you do optional fights), and the fights were still just as fun without a "+XP" indicator popping up after each kill.

I have also played the beta for a few hours and I most definitely disagree with that last part, and some of the first part. I was exploring. I found a dungeon. I entered it. I came to a room FULL of Shades. It took every single tactical bone in my body to come out victorious. I literally felt fatigued when it was over.

 

And what did I get for it? Nada. It's like the fight didn't count. It's like the game didn't intend for me to kill them. It's like the game laughed at me and said: lol Sucker! here, have a fist full of NOTHING for all your hard work hahahahahaha.

 

Side note about loot drops: There's a small group of Hags guarding the entrance to that dungeon. this encounter did reward you...sorta - with crafting supplies. If you can call crafting supplies loot. I haven't crafted anything in this beta yet so I have no idea how "valuable" 4 pieces of Bark are going to be.

 

 

I didn't had the chance to start playing the Beta yet, and I'm not that much familiar with all this Kill XP and other XP mechanics (I'm gonna read more about it when I'll be away from work) but I find this post really interesting and precious as a Beta experience feedback. 

Not saying that there is something to change about it. 

 

But more that I'd love to have some comments from the devteam about this particular experience.

[BrokenMask]

Hmm, yeah, enemy loot is pretty boring

 

On plus side for me, this means that if I have rogue capable of locking a door that let's me skip most of the dungeon, I can do that easily without problem. In all other IE games I'd have gone to kill all enemies anyway for sake of exp despite the fact I find certain types of enemies boring or just too much effort to kill all of them.

 

I mean, in case of this game, that dungeon with the cultists? None of cultists are hard to kill on easy at least, but now that I don't get exp for them I just realized that since they are boring opponents anyway that I can just skip the dungeon as much as I want

 

<_< And yes, I had occasionally problem with IE games where I was like "Argh, this dungeon is soooo huge, I don't want to search it completely to kill everyone!" but proceeded to do so anyway to get all exp and loot I never even used and just sold off if I could carry it all. I'm weird like that, I do like combat, but I don't like it when it feels like I'm doing spring cleaning in huge maze

Edited August 19, 2014 by BrokenMask

[Immortalis]

I would like some pro-no kill xpers to level their opinions in this thread.. I think the results are pretty lack luster so far.. I don't feel the no-kill xp mechanic is as good as people thought.

 

Please leave your bias and ego at the door.. It's not a pissing contest.. it's about making PoE as good as possible.

 

EDIT:
I mean after you've played the beta..

 

 

 

 

<_< And yes, I had occasionally problem with IE games where I was like "Argh, this dungeon is soooo huge, I don't want to search it completely to kill everyone!" but proceeded to do so anyway to get all exp and loot I never even used and just sold off if I could carry it all. I'm weird like that, I do like combat, but I don't like it when it feels like I'm doing spring cleaning in huge maze

 

If you did that.. it was your choice. I have never cleared out a dungeon before for every scrap of 5xp. Instead of I used to clear dungeons so I didn't miss side quests or hidden npc's who were talkable or hidden chests with cool items.

 

If you are honestly clearing dungeons just to kill every last goblin when you know the game has a level cap you will reach long before the last boss.. Well whatever.. What can I say to that? LoL

 

If your clearing dungeons for reasons OTHER then farming goblin xp.. then your point is moot.. items hidden in maze like dungeons is a completely unrelated topic or argument. We are talking about kill-xp.. nothing else.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Immortalis

[IndiraLightfoot]

Having been more or less in the objective xp camp, I'm having second thoughts now, after five hours of beta.

 

I picked Easy, because I was in for some bug hunting as well. However, being a pretty seasoned CRPG:er, and I rarely pause too, I didn't even reload once. Without spoiling too much, I had my party of five (I added a six member right before I quit the game, and then wasting 4,000 cp on a lvl 4 adventurer that came out a lvl1 adventurer) doing the following tour: They did pick up a convo-hidden quest, but then decided to go into the Gorge six hours away and fight some pretty tough prides. I was proud after having survived those. Then I decided to do a little adventuring in Dyrwood Village again, and thereafter I went away to Dyrwood Crossing, and pretty much cleaned up there. Without return to the village, I pushed away a certain heavy stone feature, and found myself in some ruins with pesky cultists with some pretty rich loot to beat. I did everything there, and I only had a couple of doors to pick (Mechanic 7), when I went back to the village (all in all, five hours of playing), to rest for a second time at the inn.

 

-I didn't die once. No reloads. I used six camping rations in that time. Some encounters were hard, but I was happy to survive those. It was loads of fun.

-I by-passed heaps and heaps of what I though were counting as objectives. I was mightily surprised to see that my xp gain during 5 h of RL time, or 26 h of in-game time, amounted to zilch and nada!

 

I must say this: either what's counting as "objectives" need a big overhaul (it must be segmented into encounters and small segments - just quest xp is not enough for me to get that IE-inspired feel), or I'll join the xp-per-kill-camp with a vengeance.

Edited August 19, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Immortalis]

Having been more or less in the objective xp camp, I'm having second thoughts now, after five hours of beta.

 

I picked Easy, because I was in for some bug hunting as well. However, being a pretty seasoned CRPG:er, and I rarely pause too, I didn't even reload once. Without spoiling too much, I had my party of five (I added a six member right before I quit the game, and then wasting 4,000 cp on a lvl 4 adventurer that came out a lvl1 adventurer) doing the following tour: They did pick up a convo-hidden quest, but then decided to go into the Gorge six hours away and fight some pretty tough prides. I was proud after having survived those. Then I decided to do a little adventuring in Dyrwood Village again, and thereafter I went away to Dyrwood Crossing, and pretty much cleaned up there. Without return to the village, I pushed away a certain heavy stone feature, and found myself in some ruins with pesky cultists with some pretty rich loot to beat. I did everything there, and I only had a couple of doors to pick (Mechanic 7), when I went back to the village (all in all, five hours of playing), to rest for a second time at the inn.

 

-I didn't die once. No reloads. I used six camping rations in that time. Some encounters were hard, but I was happy to survive those. It was loads of fun.

-I by-passed heaps and heaps of what I though were counting as objectives. I was mightily surprised to see that my xp gain during 5 h of RL time, or 26 h of in-game time, amounted to zilch and nada!

 

I must say this: either what's counting as "objectives" need a big overhaul (it must be segmented into encounters and small segments - just quest xp is not enough for me to get that IE-inspired feel), or I'll join the xp-per-kill-camp with a vengeance.

 

I had the same impression from what I've seen.. thanks for sharing. I also think your first suggestion could definitely work.. if it was done intelligently. It could be a great come half-way approach.

[Stun]

Having been more or less in the objective xp camp, I'm having second thoughts now, after five hours of beta.

 

I picked Easy, because I was in for some bug hunting as well. However, being a pretty seasoned CRPG:er, and I rarely pause too, I didn't even reload once. Without spoiling too much, I had my party of five (I added a six member right before I quit the game, and then wasting 4,000 cp on a lvl 4 adventurer that came out a lvl1 adventurer) doing the following tour: They did pick up a convo-hidden quest, but then decided to go into the Gorge six hours away and fight some pretty tough prides. I was proud after having survived those. Then I decided to do a little adventuring in Dyrwood Village again, and thereafter I went away to Dyrwood Crossing, and pretty much cleaned up there. Without return to the village, I pushed away a certain heavy stone feature, and found myself in some ruins with pesky cultists with some pretty rich loot to beat. I did everything there, and I only had a couple of doors to pick (Mechanic 7), when I went back to the village (all in all, five hours of playing), to rest for a second time at the inn.

 

-I didn't die once. No reloads. I used six camping rations in that time. Some encounters were hard, but I was happy to survive those. It was loads of fun.

-I by-passed heaps and heaps of what I though were counting as objectives. I was mightily surprised to see that my xp gain during 5 h of RL time, or 26 h of in-game time, amounted to zilch and nada!

 

I must say this: either what's counting as "objectives" need a big overhaul (it must be segmented into encounters and small segments - just quest xp is not enough for me to get that IE-inspired feel), or I'll join the xp-per-kill-camp with a vengeance.

^yeah, this.

 

And while it's possible that Bugs are a primary culprit here, I *doubt* it. The beta's pacing feels intentionally IWDish/ToEEish despite its heavy dose of exploration and wonderful dialogue. You cannot limit XP rewards to Objective-only in such an overbearingly combat-centric game and still honestly claim that it's hitting all the right notes. You. Just. Can't.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Stun