Is there still no world cup thread? (the sequel)

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yay! Belgium managed to beat the heroic Americans! I feel sad for them, since they were very good, had fantastic tenacity, and a goalie from heaven.

 

On a more personal note, as for win-loss predictions, I managed to guess the outcome right in 7 out of 8 matches. (Self-bragging, I know. Shame on me.)

[BruceVC]

Yay! Belgium managed to beat the heroic Americans! I feel sad for them, since they were very good, had fantastic tenacity, and a goalie from heaven.

 

On a more personal note, as for win-loss predictions, I managed to guess the outcome right in 7 out of 8 matches. (Self-bragging, I know. Shame on me.)

 

Do you suspect this is your dormant psychic abilities that are slowly manifesting themselves ......

[TheChris92]

Argentina's manager should just send the entire team out for Ice cream and leave Messi on the field -- He's only who seem to be able to actually play the game and get them this far.

[Guard Dog]

Well.... back to baseball I guess.

[Gorgon]

Friday looks promising. 

[Volourn]

"Argentina's manager should just send the entire team out for Ice cream and leave Messi on the field -- He's only who seem to be able to actually play the game and get them this far."
 

Yeah, I dare them to do that for enxt game. Then, we'll see how well Messi does solo as he gets beat like 100-0. LMAO

[Leferd]

Just so why I'm clear, why is Argentina getting so much hate from this board?

[Rostere]

Just so why I'm clear, why is Argentina getting so much hate from this board?

 

They are allegedly a rather mediocre team which is led by one very good player, whom some people also think is overly hyped.

[Keyrock]

 

Just so why I'm clear, why is Argentina getting so much hate from this board?

 

They are allegedly a rather mediocre team which is led by one very good player, whom some people also think is overly hyped.

 

I'm not one of the people that thinks Messi is overhyped, I think he's legitimately the best footballer on the planet, but I agree with the rest of that statement.

[Leferd]

 

 

Just so why I'm clear, why is Argentina getting so much hate from this board?

 

 

They are allegedly a rather mediocre team which is led by one very good player, whom some people also think is overly hyped.

I'm not one of the people that thinks Messi is overhyped, I think he's legitimately the best footballer on the planet, but I agree with the rest of that statement.

I get all that and agree. But the hatred of Argentina is akin to Lebron and the Heat. Personally, I like Lebron but hate the Heat because they are a dummy puppet organization who's evil mastermind is bent on global domination.

 

I don't see Argentina ruling the world anytime soon, regardless as to who is running the Vatican. So why the Argentina hate beyond lousy hero-ball style futbol?

[Leferd]

 

And this just proves America has so much potential and room for growth in this sport!

[Tigranes]

 

 

 

Just so why I'm clear, why is Argentina getting so much hate from this board?

 

They are allegedly a rather mediocre team which is led by one very good player, whom some people also think is overly hyped.

I'm not one of the people that thinks Messi is overhyped, I think he's legitimately the best footballer on the planet, but I agree with the rest of that statement.

I get all that and agree. But the hatred of Argentina is akin to Lebron and the Heat. Personally, I like Lebron but hate the Heat because they are a dummy puppet organization who's evil mastermind is bent on global domination.

 

I don't see Argentina ruling the world anytime soon, regardless as to who is running the Vatican. So why the Argentina hate beyond lousy hero-ball style futbol?

 

 

I don't care that they're a one man team or that they're hyped or anything like that. Actually, they have many talented players beyond Messi. There's only one reason I want them to go out as soon as possible, and that's because the quality of their football is not only bad, it is incredibly boring. 

 

Just about all of their matches have been about as fun as the Russians, with a pr. good Messi goal time at the end thrown in.

[Leferd]

Seems to me that though other teams have locked up Argentina's attack and have routinely marked Messi with two or three defenders at a time, he still somehow manages to beat their coverage at critical moments of the match. There's still considerable entertainment value in that, and the guy has definitely produced as advertised this time around. The dude is a transcendent talent, which is all the more reason for me that I like Argentina to advance.

[Malcador]

Yeah, so is Neymar. And doesn't have players like Mascherano and Zabaleta on his team. Haven't really been impressed by them had to work hard to beat Iran, didn't put away Nigeria as expected, etc. But at least they're a bit better defensively than in 2010.

[JadedWolf]

Given the choice between Belgium progressing and Argentina progressing, it's an easy choice.

 

Belgium all the way. They've been far more fun to watch.

[HoonDing]

It's just an unsympathetic team, always have been and always will be. In the 80s they had Maradona as the one cool bloke, and now Messi.

At least though they're not as bad as Uruguay.

[Humanoid]

Maybe a bit harsh, but I'm of the view that his HGH treatment gives him an unnatural advantage. Sure, it's something medically justifiable in terms of improving his quality of life, but like the controversy about Oscar Pistorius' spring-like blades (remember when that was the primary controversy about him?), I think it's created an uneven playing field in terms of competitive sports. It's not just neutralised a disadvantage, I feel it's a net advantage.

[Leferd]

Maybe a bit harsh, but I'm of the view that his HGH treatment gives him an unnatural advantage. Sure, it's something medically justifiable in terms of improving his quality of life, but like the controversy about Oscar Pistorius' spring-like blades (remember when that was the primary controversy about him?), I think it's created an uneven playing field in terms of competitive sports. It's not just neutralised a disadvantage, I feel it's a net advantage.

How so? He's still 5-ft 7 and he's not particularly fast or strong. He doesn't rely on athleticism to dominate the competition. If anything, his small frame gives him a lower center of gravity and greater agility. He's able to squeeze in through openings and have superior ball control in tight spaces.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Leferd

[Humanoid]

 

Maybe a bit harsh, but I'm of the view that his HGH treatment gives him an unnatural advantage. Sure, it's something medically justifiable in terms of improving his quality of life, but like the controversy about Oscar Pistorius' spring-like blades (remember when that was the primary controversy about him?), I think it's created an uneven playing field in terms of competitive sports. It's not just neutralised a disadvantage, I feel it's a net advantage.

How so? He's still 5-ft 7 and he's not particularly fast or strong. He doesn't rely on athleticism to dominate the competition. If anything, his small frame gives him a lower center of gravity and greater agility. He's able to squeeze in through openings and have superior ball control in tight spaces.

 

Isn't that somewhat of a contradiction? He now has the advantage of not being 4-foot-something but still has that advantageous low centre of gravity. How would he compare in terms of body weight distribution over someone who's naturally 5'7?

 

My point is that he was born without the set of tools to be a professional footballer. Sure, the deficiency might be classified as a medical disorder, but ultimately it's still constructing a footballer out of a non-footballer through chemistry. It's neither strictly a sporting issue or an ethical issue, but it's an uncomfortable grey area for me as one day we'll probably see that blurry line between a 'disorder' and just being plain unsuited for sports be tested.

 

It's tough to tell a kid that sorry, we can fix your body up to 'normal' standards but it'd make you ineligible for competition, but I think the alternative is an even uglier precedent.

[Leferd]

I wouldn't be too worried about the implications.

 

As you alluded to, in Messi's case, he took HGH treatment as a child for legitimate and serious medical reasons. He stopped taking them before reaching adulthood and becoming a professional. Whatever physical benefits he derived from HGH was for medical reasons and not specific to gain advantage as a footballer. Nor is he currently receiving HGH treatment that would give him a physician advantage over his peers.

 

Good enough for my book.

[kgambit]

 

My point is that he was born without the set of tools to be a professional footballer. Sure, the deficiency might be classified as a medical disorder, but ultimately it's still constructing a footballer out of a non-footballer through chemistry. It's neither strictly a sporting issue or an ethical issue, but it's an uncomfortable grey area for me as one day we'll probably see that blurry line between a 'disorder' and just being plain unsuited for sports be tested.

 

 

Except that Messi was signed to a contract to the FC Barcelona youth team at the age of 13 before he started HGH treatments.   Messi was diagnosed with HGH deficiency at the age of 11 when he stood 4'2" tall.  His family couldn't afford the treatments (~900 to 1500$ a month - reports vary) but FC Barcelona agreed to foot the bill (pun unintentional) as part of the contract he signed.   Say what you will, but I doubt FC Barcelona signs a kid to a contract and agrees to cover his medical bills unless he shows some serious level of talent.  Point of fact is that Messi didn't need a performance enhancer - he was already a wizard with the football.  

 

@Lefered - Technically Messi was a professional when he was first given HGH treatments.  He was just working his way up thru the Barelona juvenil teams and then the C and B squads before he made his first appearance with the A team at the age of 16.      

Edited July 3, 2014 by kgambit

[Humanoid]

By tools I mean physical build. Could he have succeeded as a 4'6" footballer? Because developmentally that's technically what's natural for him, in the same way a seven-foot basketballer is expected to have their height: as a consequence of genetic luck rather than through medicine.

 

Look, I realise that to many, I probably look like a bit of a zealot here, but doping in sports is a big area of interest of mine, and yeah, I tend to be a bit of a crusader in this regard. And this is at least a genuinely sympathetic case, in the context of rampant HGH abuse in pro sports in general (which is sad in a way, because HGH has been shown in most people to have minimal performance benefit).

 

 

P.S. I suppose I should be on the record for this anyway, but I believe that every team in the competition is pushing some sort of technically illegal medical program - some to greater extents than others, sure - but the unfortunate truth is that it's impossible to keep up physically without assistance. Even the most naturally talented players will need that assistance, because ability rapidly drops off with fatigue, and there's no way talent keeps up with the ability to bomb up and down the touchline at full pace for a full 90 minutes. As in any sports, the best players enjoy political protection both from sporting bodies and national governments because of their paramount commercial importance.

[Leferd]

I don't want to open a can of worms and make this is a debate over doping, but in Messi's case, he ain't doping.

 

He had a legitimate medical condition - human growth disorder, that can have serious implications on him leading a normal, healthy life. As Kgambit stated, FC Barcelona paid for his treatment on the basis that he was already a supremely talented young footballer, and not out of altruism, but because of that, Messi was lucky as his family background was quite modest.

 

Not going to begrudge a guy for legitimately taking HGH for its intended medical purpose and then making a living off his talents. It's not even really relevant because again, he stopped taking it years ago (when he was still a kid) thus, he's not doping.

 

Lionel Messi was blessed that he was given the treatment back when he did, and now the whole world can enjoy his talents. Enjoy him while you still can because he is in the prime of his career and he is a once in a generation talent, and I'd like to see him play some more at this World Cup.

[rjshae]

 

Just so why I'm clear, why is Argentina getting so much hate from this board?

 

They are allegedly a rather mediocre team which is led by one very good player, whom some people also think is overly hyped.

 

To me they certainly don't seem mediocre; I just think the rest of the world is catching up, skills-wise. It seems like more of a balanced contest now, even if the big powers are still dominating.

[Volourn]

Steroids should not be banned in sport. It's nonsense and evil to think it should be. Period. End of discussion.